Ulnar Deviation

[link0126]

I am trying minimize ulnar deviation in my playing. I do not stay in that position but I am wondering how much is safe and what exactly is harmful about it? It seems that it's necessary in certain situations like when playing a black key with the thumb and it's helpful when playing lower on the keyboard with the right hand or higher with the left hand.

Is it OK to exhibit a small amount of deviation towards to the little finger or how much is too much, angle wise and frequency wise?

[ajspiano]

It seems that it's necessary in certain situations like when playing a black key with the thumb

Alternatively, you could move your entire hand into the keyboard.

Twisting the wrist causes tension in the wrist, and locks up the fingers to a degree. It will negatively impact your playing, and can lead to injury.

[link0126]

I guess, I just need to try to get used to doing that. Should I also move my elbow in closer to my body? there seems like there's still a small amount of movement towards the ulnar. Is that OK as long as it's not like full on deviation?

[j_menz]

I guess, I just need to try to get used to doing that. Should I also move my elbow in closer to my body?

No. Possibly further out.

there seems like there's still a small amount of movement towards the ulnar. Is that OK as long as it's not like full on deviation?

I find a small amount is fine. It depends on your wrist, of course, but a little bit is simply natural, causes no strain and doesn't impede any other motion (such as rotation).  Don't sweat to get it perfectly still, but  just be conscious of keeping it freely moveable and relaxed. In my case it's OK up to about 5-10 degrees, but after that starts to rapidly impede me.  I think striving for an unnatural motionlessness is just as likely to freeze you up.

[p2u_]

It seems that it's necessary in certain situations like when playing a black key with the thumb and it's helpful when playing lower on the keyboard with the right hand or higher with the left hand.

Instead of using wrist deviation, teach yourself to bring your hand in position with your upper arms. It's a very small movement and won't hurt you so much.

Paul

[link0126]

No. Possibly further out.

Further out for my right hand? meaning my thumb should be completely sideways (90 degrees to the key)?

I find a small amount is fine. It depends on your wrist, of course, but a little bit is simply natural, causes no strain and doesn't impede any other motion (such as rotation).  Don't sweat to get it perfectly still, but  just be conscious of keeping it freely moveable and relaxed. In my case it's OK up to about 5-10 degrees, but after that starts to rapidly impede me.  I think striving for an unnatural motionlessness is just as likely to freeze you up.

Ok, good, yeah there is a small degree happening naturally. I guess I don't understand why Ulnar deviation is bad per se. Isn't a completely natural movement for our hands?

[p2u_]

I guess I don't understand why Ulnar deviation is bad per se. Isn't a completely natural movement for our hands?

It all depends on how well you experience your own body. Sometimes ulnar deviation may help, but this is more a question of function than of position and should be shown by a teacher. Can't go any deeper into this, because it would require me to write a book here.

There is a risk, though, when your repertoire becomes really difficult and/or very "motoric" (many repeated movements). In that case ulnar deviation (if not correctly applied) can lead to permanent wrist pain, both centrally and at the outer edges of the wrist due to nerve pinching and tendon compression. You really don't want to go through that kind of pain.

Paul

[j_menz]

Further out for my right hand? meaning my thumb should be completely sideways (90 degrees to the key)?

No, the movement comes from your shoulders, not your elbows. It shouldn't affect the angle of your hands to the keyboard at all.

[link0126]

ahhh ok. I think I get it now. I just played all major chords up the chromatic scale. the movement is from the shoulder in such a way so that the forearm remains completely 90 degrees to the keyboard at all times. The ulnar deviation occurs when the forearm is allowed to go slightly diaginol to the keyboard. With 90 degrees all the way up you can move your hand further in to hit the black keys with the thumb and keep the hand and wrist in the same position. It seems so simple yet I probably would never have figured it out.

Thanks guys.

You all seem to know so much about this, would you mind if I posted a video of my playing for you both to check out this weekend and let me know what else I could improve on to avoid injury?

[ajspiano]

the movement is from the shoulder in such a way so that the forearm remains completely 90 degrees to the keyboard at all times.

not quite..

this would not be possible while playing at either extreme of the keyboard right? such motion uses the upper arm lifted out sideways holding the forarms, and is very tiresome. The body should remain inline with itself, but it can at the appropriate times be at angles with the keyboard.

EDIT: I know that may be confusing, I'm trying to find an appropriate photo via google but am struggling a little.

EDIT 2: Attached image - incredibly dodge explanation, best I can do right now.

Image shows drawn LH in 2 different positions, one that would apply to the middle of the keyboard, and one that would in theory apply to the lower end. Roughly.

[j_menz]

not quite..

this would not be possible while playing at either extreme of the keyboard right? such motion uses the upper arm lifted out sideways holding the forarms, and is very tiresome. The body should remain inline with itself, but it can at the appropriate times be at angles with the keyboard.

EDIT: I know that may be confusing, I'm trying to find an appropriate photo via google but am struggling a little.

The extremes of the keyboard certainly make this more tiring, unless one has good shoulder strength, but I'd have thought it was the only way of playing at both extremes at once.

[ajspiano]

The extremes of the keyboard certainly make this more tiring, unless one has good shoulder strength, but I'd have thought it was the only way of playing at both extremes at once.

Refer to above crappy attached drawing - this is taubmans (atleast where I first heard it) theory, that there is a gradual change in the angle of the forearm compared to the keyboard as you extend further out to the left and right extremes.

Obviously variation is required depending the exact musical configuration also..

If you try to reach out and touch (rather than play something musical) the extremes at the same time you'll find that most people naturally do it this way..  they usually arent immediately comfortable playing at angles though, just through being used to remaining at right angles always..

[j_menz]

Refer to above crappy attached drawing - this is taubmans (atleast where I first heard it) theory, that there is a gradual change in the angle of the forearm compared to the keyboard as you extend further out to the left and right extremes.

Obviously variation is required depending the exact musical configuration also..

If you try to reach out and touch (rather than play something musical) the extremes at the same time you'll find that most people naturally do it this way..  they usually arent immediately comfortable playing at angles though, just through being used to remaining at right angles always..

I have to say I couldn't play at that angle.  It seems I would need either a radial deviation (and one that would be too great) or use my shoulders to minimise the angle.

I'm not sure to what extent that is dictated by my need to do it without looking at the keyboard, though.

[ajspiano]

I have to say I couldn't play at that angle.  It seems I would need either a radial deviation (and one that would be too great) or use my shoulders to minimise the angle.

I'm not sure to what extent that is dictated by my need to do it without looking at the keyboard, though.

Well, like i said, crappy drawing - crappy explanation.

Its not meant to be at one extreme or the other..  ie. either drive with the upper up pushing the elbow out to maintain a right angle OR keep the upper arm close to the body and just change the angle of the forearm.

Also (obviously) reduced by leaning left, right or forward depending on the context within piece.

There's a balance between the options that is comfortable and physiologically sound. Maintaining a perfect right angle at all times doesnt fit in that category, it will cause undue stress on the upper arm/shoulder.