E# and B#

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Why don't they exist?  Well, of course they exist because an E# is an F, and a B# is a C, but how come they don't have a black key?  You know what I mean?  Like something between E and F?  And I know they say that there's a half step between E and F, but how do you know?  Like...

Aaaagh I'm so confused!

[j_menz]

Actually, they do exist as separate notes to F and C, except in a well tempered scale (or some of it's forerunners).  They don't have a seperate key because it would be redundant. The only temperaments where it would make an appreciable difference don't modulate on a keyboard.

Besides, how many keys do you want? The same theory would require TWO black keys between the notes where there's one now.  And then there's double sharps, double flats, triple sharps, triple flats...........

There'd be no room left for your fingers. 

[perfect_pitch]

triple sharps, triple flats

EXCUSE ME??? I have NEVER heard of triple sharps or triple flats... and never witnessed them in any music I have ever seen.

Any proof???

[p2u_]

EXCUSE ME??? I have NEVER heard of triple sharps or triple flats... and never witnessed them in any music I have ever seen.

Any proof???

In modern music, and even in the music by Alkan yes (scroll down to see an example from real music).
https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/textt/Triplesharp.html
https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/textt/Tripleflat.html

Paul

[perfect_pitch]

In modern music, and even in the music by Alkan yes (scroll down to see an example from real music).

So basically, it's a gimmick. Considering the Alkan etude uses the key signature of 6 sharps (assuming its in D# minor) there still shouldn't be any need for a triple sharp.

[j_menz]

So basically, it's a gimmick. Considering the Alkan etude uses the key signature of 6 sharps (assuming its in D# minor) there still shouldn't be any need for a triple sharp.

Not quite a gimick. Alkan disapproved of enharmonic spellings, so modulations could wind up in some very unusual keys, like Fx Major.  Feinberg uses a triple flat for much the same reason.

[perfect_pitch]

Alkan disapproved of enharmonic spellings, so modulations could wind up in some very unusual keys, like Fx Major.  Feinberg uses a triple flat for much the same reason.

What the f@#$??? I've just considerably lost a lot of respect for Alkan unfortunately... Didn't really care for Feinberg in the first place, so I don't mind... but Alkan - that's just all kinds of s#@t crazy.

[iansinclair]

Not quite a gimick. Alkan disapproved of enharmonic spellings, so modulations could wind up in some very unusual keys, like Fx Major.  Feinberg uses a triple flat for much the same reason.

I quite agree... it depends on whether one is thinking in terms of reading the music more or less easily, or in terms of clearly showing the underlying harmonic structure.  For example.  Suppose your piece is in C sharp major.  The tonic chord is, then C sharp, E sharp, G sharp.  On the other hand, suppose your piece is in D flat major.  Then your tonic chord is D flat, F, and A flat.  Same doggone chord.  Thing is, we write the C sharp major version as C sharp, F and G sharp.  Which doesn't show the underlying major third as clearly (in fact, what it shows is a chord with a diminished fourth... which is the same in equal temperament as a major third)(oh dear, this gets so confusing...).

Ideally, in an equal temperament, all transpositions would sound exactly the same.  Maybe it's all in my head, but to me at least they don't.

[j_menz]

What the f@#$??? I've just considerably lost a lot of respect for Alkan unfortunately... Didn't really care for Feinberg in the first place, so I don't mind... but Alkan - that's just all kinds of s#@t crazy.

Triple sharps/flats are in a sense no sillier than double ones. You are just more familiar with the latter. If you lost respect for all the composers who used doubles, you wouldn't have many left.

[perfect_pitch]

Triple sharps/flats are in a sense no sillier than double ones.

Excuse me... I don't believe that's true. Considering there are essentially 12 different major and 12 different minor keys (aurally), 15 different written major and 15 different minor keys (some which are enharmonic doubles like F# Major & Gb Major).

Considering that if we were to write a d# minor scale, we need to use a double sharp since we raise the 7th note in the harmonic scale, so instead of writing D & D#, we need to differentiate it by writing Cx (double sharp) and D#.

Double sharps and double flats are necessary to help us write in all the different keys, but triple sharps don't seem to be essential. I mean, why not create quadruple sharps and flats???

Why not write in the key of B triple-sharp major??? Personally I think D Major though is a lot easier and makes more sense.

[j_menz]

Excuse me... I don't believe that's true. Considering there are essentially 12 different major and 12 different minor keys (aurally), 15 different written major and 15 different minor keys (some which are enharmonic doubles like F# Major & Gb Major).

Considering that if we were to write a d# minor scale, we need to use a double sharp since we raise the 7th note in the harmonic scale, so instead of writing D & D#, we need to differentiate it by writing Cx (double sharp) and D#.

Double sharps and double flats are necessary to help us write in all the different keys, but triple sharps don't seem to be essential. I mean, why not create quadruple sharps and flats???

Why not write in the key of B triple-sharp major??? Personally I think D Major though is a lot easier and makes more sense.

D# is enharmonically identical to Eb, which avoids double anythings.  The reason you want to put it in D# is that that is where wherever you are coming from naturally modulates to. Somje more distant modulations require triple sharps or flats. They could, also, be enharmonically spelt to avoid them.

The reason we don't see quadruple sharps or flats is that the common practice period ended and atonality was born before anyone got quite so adventurous with their modulations without the use of enharmonic spellings.

These things only ever arise in the case of modulations. Noone actually uses them as the starting keys.

[jlh]

Eww!

That is all.

Josh

[keyofc]

Give me a chord chart!

It will sound the same - just won't be as interesting to talk about.

[mjedwards]

So basically, it's a gimmick. Considering the Alkan etude uses the key signature of 6 sharps (assuming its in D# minor) there still shouldn't be any need for a triple sharp.

    Not in the least, tiniest bit a gimmick - it is theoretically absolutely correct there, and to avoid using it would be as incorrect as using Eb instead of D# in a context that calls for the latter: such as the leading note of the E-minor scale, or to notate, in the key of C major, an augmented 2nd above the tonic note.  It would be like those composers who may (very rarely) write a passage in the key of G# minor, but are reluctant for some reason to use double-sharps - so they write the leading note of the scale (Fx) as a G-natural, which is totally incorrect, and, to my eye, actually makes the overall context and harmonic structure of the music *harder* to read and quickly comprehend.

Regards, Michael.