Question about Lister-Sink Method

[link0126]

I am looking into taking a week and going to NC to take the first set of lessons. However, I am wondering if it would help in the long term considering I don't live in the area and wouldn't be able to keep going back on a regular basis. It does say on the site that further lessons over the internet are available but I wonder how effective that would be for me, since I have such ingrained tension issues.

Has anyone here done this or something similar to this from another city and had good results long term? I worry that I'll go there, have a really great week and then come back without lasting results.

[p2u_]

Lister-Sink Method

I haven't gone through this method myself, but if you drop the scientific inaccuries of her explanation and concentrate on the body awareness exercises, then it seems all sound to me. As for the duration of such a course: be prepared - it's usually a long way of new experiences and development of a certain awareness of your body. You cannot expect to become a virtuoso within 3 months or so.
At the session, you should ask whether they have any certified teachers in your area. They also have a disc with materials (rather expensive from what I recall), but not everybody can learn effectively with such materials.

Paul

[pytheamateur]

How is this method different from the standard training you get at a conservatoire?  If you want to play the piano well, it seems you can do no better than have lessons with a teacher from a good conservatoire.

[p2u_]

How is this method different from the standard training you get at a conservatoire?  If you want to play the piano well, it seems you can do no better than have lessons with a teacher from a good conservatoire.

At most conservatories you get ZERO technique, only repertoire, which may include technical exercises, etudes, etc. You are supposed to be ready when you enter (most are NOT really ready, unfortunately, even when they graduate) and you should continue doing your dirty linen at home. Lister-Sink helps you do your dirty linen. I have a feeling that it is very teacher-dependent, though. They will warn you all the time not to practise without their teachers. It would be better if they taught you how to do it on your own.

Paul

[link0126]

I have a feeling that it is very teacher-dependent, though. They will warn you all the time not to practise without their teachers. It would be better if they taught you how to do it on your own.

yeah, this is exactly what I need to know more about. I doubt a week of prelimarly lessons would be enough for me to absorb this and start using it on my own.

[link0126]

At most conservatories you get ZERO technique, only repertoire, which may include technical exercises, etudes, etc. You are supposed to be ready when you enter (most are NOT really ready, unfortunately, even when they graduate) and you should continue doing your dirty linen at home. Lister-Sink helps you do your dirty linen. I have a feeling that it is very teacher-dependent, though. They will warn you all the time not to practise without their teachers. It would be better if they taught you how to do it on your own.

Paul

Paul, what method or teacher do you suggest for learning technique?

[pytheamateur]

I don't think first year conservatoire students can be considered to have perfect technique (with a few exceptions of course).  So, although I have never studied in a conservatoire, I'd suppose that technique is very much part of the training there.  For example, I was once in a masterclass given by the late Vladimir Krainev, where he was offering advice to a student on how to practise Liszt's Campanella.

In any event, I think a conservatoire teacher should indeed have the expertise to teach you good technique.  To be honest, to improve my technique, I could do no better than find a trusted conservatoire teacher.  I think it is better than going to some commercial courses with fancy names.

Conservatoire teachers once intimidated me, as I knew as an amateur I was on a different league to conservatoire students.  There are certainly teachers who are only interested in teaching wunderkinds (in London, there is a professor in the Royal Academy of Music with such a reputation.  No names, all I can say is he is a Daniel Craig lookalike).  On the other hand, there are also teachers who is keen to take on amateurs (in London, for example, there are Philip Fowke, Graham Fitch and Penelope Roskell).

[p2u_]

Paul, what method or teacher do you suggest for learning technique?

I have trouble answering that question. You won't hear me argue against Lister-Sink or against Taubman, etc. I am completely self-taught; I distrust "teachers" as a species.
Although I auditioned with some of the greatest on earth with nothing but encouraging comments coming from them, nobody ever "touched" me. When I started, I used the book by Josef Gat (technique of piano playing) to understand the mechanics (this book may be no longer available) + mainly observed others and always wondered why most move like cripled, "trying to drive with the handbrakes on". From what I see online and from what I've read, I think Alan Fraser with his Craft of piano playing is one of the best. A VERY good site (and all for free!) is MUSIC AND HEALTH, but you may not be ready yet to absorb the wealth of info. And eventually, as soon as you understand how your fingers should move, all the answers are in the music. No shortcuts, no detours. Active fingers, supported by loose wrists and upper arms and concentration on the MUSICAL sound image.

I don't think first year conservatoire students can be considered to have perfect technique (with a few exceptions of course).  So, although I have never studied in a conservatoire, I'd suppose that technique is very much part of the training there.  For example, I was once in a masterclass given by the late Vladimir Krainev, where he was offering advice to a student on how to practise Liszt's Campanella.

Well, yes, but that's not technique; it's not even mechanics. From what I see, what they usually give you is a kind of superficial skill to press the right notes in the right time, something in the realm of bad acrobatics and such, but what about understanding how to move a key for beautiful and economic/ergonomic sound production in connection with the musical tasks at hand? That's a little more than one-time instructions along the line of "Practise like this and work up your speed with a metronome". I make a living repairing the victims of the system that promotes "development of faster and stronger fingers", you see...

Paul

[ajspiano]

You won't hear me argue against Lister-Sink or against Taubman, etc. I am completely self-taught; I distrust "teachers" as a species.

I only distrust the ones who think they are unequivocally correct about everything. You need guidance and inspiration, not strict teaching.

Personally, though I took lessons for a long time when I was younger I don't think its reasonable to say that I was taught how to play the piano as far as technique. Its all self taught through research and self observation. I wish i had had someone who could've taught me not so much "how to move" but "how to find good movement through awareness" when i was younger - I'd be a long way better than I am now.

[furtwaengler]

I had some lessons with Barbara Lister-Sink for five or six lesson several summers ago. I did not go with any intent of having my technique overhauled, which many of the other students were specifically doing. Though I have a natural freedom at the piano, I do not consider myself to have a good technique, but a quirky technique. Nevertheless I think those sessions have had a lasting impact, and I can only imagine what would be accomplished for the person who really buys into the system and diligently lets her guide you. I think she is legit, and could definitely help you with your tension, even if it is just a week.

[p2u_]

I only distrust the ones who think they are unequivocally correct about everything. You need guidance and inspiration, not strict teaching.

This is very true. We should throw the traditional student/loser - teacher/authority thinking out of the window actually. All "students" (even beginners) are just your junior colleagues, and all "teachers" are just your senior colleagues. Students may come to you for advice and that's it; you don't have a right to intimidate them.

There is one vital factor, though, that counts for good development and it works from the student's side: when you consult a Master, you either trust him/her completely, or you don't. Very useful in this respect is the book "Zen in the art of archery" by Eugen Herrigel. This is a must for anyone, trying to learn any kind of craft from a master. The Master may say: here's the task, do it like this, slo-o-o-wly. And the student may think: yes, but I want to play fast, so I'd better train to be fast. The student fools himself systematically and then claims elsewhere he hasn't learned anything from Master such-and-such...

Paul

[pytheamateur]

Well, yes, but that's not technique; it's not even mechanics. From what I see, what they usually give you is a kind of superficial skill to press the right notes in the right time, something in the realm of bad acrobatics and such, but what about understanding how to move a key for beautiful and economic/ergonomic sound production in connection with the musical tasks at hand? That's a little more than one-time instructions along the line of "Practise like this and work up your speed with a metronome". I make a living repairing the victims of the system that promotes "development of faster and stronger fingers", you see...

Paul

For your interest, here are some online videos by Graham Fitch on chord playing.

https://www.pianistmagazine.com/information/Pianist-TV

I think he is talking about technique there.  Also, I remember reading somewhere that when Vladimir Krainev first studied with Heinrich Neuhaus at the Moscow Conservatory, one thing he had to work on was his forte, which was a little harsh.

[p2u_]

For your interest, here are some online videos by Graham Fitch on chord playing.

https://www.pianistmagazine.com/information/Pianist-TV

I think he is talking about technique there.

Please have a look at the target group and you will understand that this is not exactly intended for conservatory students or for people preparing for conservatory (who were the focus when we last talked to each other).

It is also not what I would call technique (the art of touch). It's just about organizing your movements (and the notes) to get a little beyond the level of mere key pressing. The actual coordination is not discussed.

Besides, however interesting these clips are, you can find your way to a hand surgeon very quickly if you don't understand the coordination of what he is showing.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that when Vladimir Krainev first studied with Heinrich Neuhaus at the Moscow Conservatory, one thing he had to work on was his forte, which was a little harsh.

Heinrich Neuhaus is a very special case: he only set MUSICAL tasks before already VERY advanced students. He did not even know from his own experience how to work with beginners. The problem with Krainev must have been that he used too much acceleration to make his forte, but I don't think Neuhaus did any hairsplitting about how exactly this should be improved in terms of movement. He simply gave them a sound image and they were expected to do it on command with instructions like: "More weight", "Less height", "Less acceleration", etc.

Paul