I've got a question for you... :(

[ashtonm]

I had private lessons when I started, took a semester in college, and I am predominantly self-taught. I've been playing for for about three years, but only for about a year I've played with the conscious intent to improve technique.

What I think I'm having issues with is my rhythm (I play with a metronome), more specifically it seems like more of a "timing" issue. Incredibly frustrating.

For example, for over a month I've been practicing Czerny's Study Op.261 No.1 (Which leads me to believe I am doing something wrong). No matter how much time I spend on this, notes are noticeably and undesirably longer or shorter than the 16th note durations. It isn't steady, and rhythm sounds quite "choppy."

Edit! My exact issue at 1:42 (He doesn't address a solution):

What is your experience with this? How is this usually caused, and what can I do to solve it?

Unfortunately, due to my current financial situation private lessons are out of the question. I hope I can come to some sort of resolution for this issue, it's truly taking a toll on my motivation.

If needed I can provide an audio or video recording. I appreciate your help.

Ashton

[j_menz]

What I think I'm having issues with is my rhythm (I play with a metronome), more specifically it seems like more of a "timing" issue. Incredibly frustrating.

Welcome to the forum, Ashton.

Pretty much all "timing" issues are rhythm issues (not the other way around as you suggest).

To develop your sense of rhythm, there are a number of things you can do. You can do most of them away from the piano, too. At work, in class, at the beach, wherever.

Try tapping along to music you listen to. Then, try tapping out rhythms that you imagine.  Don't try an get too funky with it, just start out with simple beats.  This will get your sense of rhythm going, and get you used to doing movements with your hands in sync with it.

Also, spend some time playing the exercise without the metronome. You will then have more of your brain left over to actually concentrate on what you are playing, and it will assist in assimilating what you have learnt from the above into your playing.

You can use the metronome every few days to check your progress.

Constant use of the metronome will impede, rather than help develop, your own sense of rhythm.

[ashtonm]

Welcome to the forum, Ashton.

Pretty much all "timing" issues are rhythm issues (not the other way around as you suggest).

To develop your sense of rhythm, there are a number of things you can do. You can do most of them away from the piano, too. At work, in class, at the beach, wherever.

Try tapping along to music you listen to. Then, try tapping out rhythms that you imagine.  Don't try an get too funky with it, just start out with simple beats.  This will get your sense of rhythm going, and get you used to doing movements with your hands in sync with it.

Also, spend some time playing the exercise without the metronome. You will then have more of your brain left over to actually concentrate on what you are playing, and it will assist in assimilating what you have learnt from the above into your playing.

You can use the metronome every few days to check your progress.

Constant use of the metronome will impede, rather than help develop, your own sense of rhythm.

J menz, thank you for the very warm welcome!

Your post is very intriguing, and relieving at the same time. Intriguing because you always read that the metronome should be on 24/7 including holidays.  So, I'd like to ensure I am understanding this correctly. If I were to practice 6 days a week, I would use the metronome 2-3 days?

Also, I've read that a lot in regards to rhythm tapping, and although it was a beginners class my instructor was quite adamant about it as well. A question I do have as per rhythm tapping, would you say this even helps rhythm for your individual fingers??

Thank you much for your post, I appreciate it!

[p2u_]

for over a month I've been practicing Czerny's Study Op.261 No.1

Hi, Ashton!

First of all, I'd like to ask you a question: Why are you practising Czerny when there is so much beautiful music around? What is your goal? What is your view? What does it give you?

If you really want to play that music, you should train your ears first of all. I have a feeling you are training your fingers without a sound image, which should be the leading factor. The sounds you want to make should not come as a surprise (either good or bad); you should ANTICIPATE with your mind, which means: developing your listening skills, singing it first.

There are clips online (mainly YouTube) with all of them recorded. Of course, they may sound like too fast, but that's not a problem. I think you should download the file and SLOW it down (can be done with a regular player software; free VLan player or Classic media player from the K-Lite Codec pack software) so you will hear the melody SLOWLY. Sing along. Then just imitate with your fingers. DO NOT SPEED UP TOO SOON! Carl Czerny - 101 Exercises, Op.261 (part 1 of 5) (nos.1 - 18)

Paul

[ajspiano]

Intriguing because you always read that the metronome should be on 24/7 including holidays.  So, I'd like to ensure I am understanding this correctly. If I were to practice 6 days a week, I would use the metronome 2-3 days?

I think J_menz would rather see you throw the metronome out the window altogether

But that's just his view...   just consider that you're ultimately going to have to keep time without the metronome so you're going to learn to play without it.

You certainly wouldnt do some days with some days without - if you're going down the road of both options I would suggest that DAILY you do both with and without. If you have a well developed sense of time you tend to use a metronome for a few seconds, just to set your inner clock to the desired pace and then just play without it.

EDIT:
LOL - and the same question paul asked. cznery isn't the nicest sounding collection of notes even when you play it expertly - ..but thats just my opinion..

[j_menz]

I think J_menz would rather see you throw the metronome out the window altogether

Ultimately, yes.

Unless it's one of those nice old ones, in which case it will make quite a nice paperweight.

The goal is to be able to not need it.  An occassional couple of clicks, maybe, to check an overall tempo. Nothing more.

If it helps you  get to that point, then by all means use it, but with a view to weaning yourself off it.

That could be starting from one play through with, one without.  And reduce the withs over time as you develop confidence with the piece, and start the next one at once with to twice without. Etc.....

Oh, and if it's one of those really annoying digital ones, do throw it out the window when you're done with it. 

________________________________________________________________________
*notes that I have managed to resist the temptation to criticise Czerny. But really....*

[pianoplunker]

(I play with a metronome),

Have you ever tried playing with other people ?   I think playing with other people sharpens rhythm more than anything else including the metronome.   The metronome is great to check on the tempo and help check control during "practice"  but it is not a performance tool.  Another alternative if you dont want to play with other people is to maybe try an electronic rhythm section  if you happen to have a keyboard or drum machine that can do that. Or listen to the piece you are trying to learn and snap your fingers in rhythm. Let yourself become a metronome for the music. Possibly the Czerny you are trying to learn is not ready for you yet

[ashtonm]

Hi, Ashton!

First of all, I'd like to ask you a question: Why are you practising Czerny when there is so much beautiful music around? What is you goal? What is your view? What does it give you?

If you really want to play that music, you should train your ears first of all. I have a feeling you are training your fingers without a sound image, which should be the leading factor. The sounds you want to make should not come as a surprise (either good or bad); you should ANTICIPATE with your mind, which means: developing your listening skills, singing it first.

There are clips online (mainly YouTube) with all of them recorded. Of course, they may sound like too fast, but that's not a problem. I think you should download the file and SLOW it down (can be done with a regular player software; free VLan player or Classic media player from the K-Lite Codec pack software) so you will hear the melody SLOWLY. Sing along. Then just imitate with your fingers. DO NOT SPEED UP TOO SOON! Carl Czerny - 101 Exercises, Op.261 (part 1 of 5) (nos.1 - 18)

Paul

I practice Czerny because it's an etude and nothing more. I'm not sure if they are the best etudes in regards to improving technique for my level of play, but it was given to me by a friend, before which I played Hanon. My goal is to practice etudes in general because they will get me better quicker than normal songs. I know people usually despise them because they seem boring, but I don't mind at all.

I never thought about slowing the pieces down. Perhaps I'll play along with those that are played well. Thanks for your tips! They've inspired a few ideas I'm also willing to try.

I think J_menz would rather see you throw the metronome out the window altogether

But that's just his view...   just consider that you're ultimately going to have to keep time without the metronome so you're going to learn to play without it.

You certainly wouldnt do some days with some days without - if you're going down the road of both options I would suggest that DAILY you do both with and without. If you have a well developed sense of time you tend to use a metronome for a few seconds, just to set your inner clock to the desired pace and then just play without it.

EDIT:
LOL - and the same question paul asked. cznery isn't the nicest sounding collection of notes even when you play it expertly - ..but thats just my opinion..

Ah, so it's more so a personal preference. I'm not dogmatic for the metronome, I'm just told it helps rhythm so I do it (I personally prefer to play without it).

Lol, I confess, I don't really fancy the actual music of Czerny's etudes, but I don't mind how crappy the music is as I view them merely as a sporting drill, so to speak. Thanks for your advice!

Ultimately, yes.

Unless it's one of those nice old ones, in which case it will make quite a nice paperweight.

The goal is to be able to not need it.  An occassional couple of clicks, maybe, to check an overall tempo. Nothing more.

If it helps you  get to that point, then by all means use it, but with a view to weaning yourself off it.

That could be starting from one play through with, one without.  And reduce the withs over time as you develop confidence with the piece, and start the next one at once with to twice without. Etc.....

Oh, and if it's one of those really annoying digital ones, do throw it out the window when you're done with it.  

________________________________________________________________________
*notes that I have managed to resist the temptation to criticise Czerny. But really....*

Lmao, I love the disclosure at the end. My metronomes are indeed electronic - in my yamaha and laptop - I shall throw them both out the window after this post.  

A question I do have for you guys is: Since this rhythm issue isn't due to the song I am practicing in particular, do you think it's okay to move on? Smoothing out rhythm seems to be something to come with time, not a particular song do you guys agree?

-Ashton

[p2u_]

I practice Czerny because it's an etude and nothing more. [...]

I view them merely as a sporting drill

Well, that's exactly the problem: Carl Czerny taking revenge on you from the grave.
Start playing music, Ashton, and use your ears and imagination, really...

Paul

[ashtonm]

Well, that's exactly the problem: Carl Czerny taking revenge on you from the grave.
Start playing music, Ashton, and use your ears and imagination, really...

Paul

Paul, you caught me whilst editing my post! Lmao revenge from the grave. Do you guys really feel Czerny isn't good for improving technique and challenging your hands?

[p2u_]

Paul, you caught me whilst editing my post!

Yeah, I've got the fastest fingers around Moscow, although I never practised Hanon or Czerny...

Do you guys really feel Czerny isn't good for improving technique and challenging your hands?

Technique is not the ability to move; you already have that from birth.
Technique is the art of producing the right sound at the right time to express MUSIC. Of course, you need your fingers to do that, but the challenge is in the music. Hanon is good if your mindset is good, and so is Czerny: they're just another opportunity to use your fingers to do something else: you want to produce the sound you expect. Without the expectation it's useless. The problem with Hanon and Czerny is that it's... well... poor music.

Paul

[j_menz]

A question I do have for you guys is: Since this rhythm issue isn't due to the song I am practicing in particular, do you think it's okay to move on? Smoothing out rhythm seems to be something to come with time, not a particular song do you guys agree?

Yes.
I'd suggest something other than Czerny for developing rhythm in any case. Try something with a tune.  That way, your feel for the tune will help, and if it's a tune you know, you'll see how the rhythm actually plays in the music.  Czerny is pretty dry, so whatever it's merits for learning other things, I don't think it's really much good for rhyhthm, if for no other reason than there's no actual musical flow to it.

Also, I'm only dissing the Czerny studies. I'm reliably informed that some of his actual musical works are not too bad!

[pianoplunker]

I practice Czerny because it's an etude and nothing more. I'm not sure if they are the best etudes in regards to improving technique for my level of play, but it was given to me by a friend, before which I played Hanon. My goal is to practice etudes in general because they will get me better quicker than normal songs. I know people usually despise them because they seem boring, but I don't mind at all.

The etudes, hanon, czerny will only get you better and quicker at playing etudes, czerny , and hanon. If that is what you want then great. But actually there is probably better "normal" music for making you better at whatever you are trying to be better at.

I never thought about slowing the pieces down. Perhaps I'll play along with those that are played well. Thanks for your tips! They've inspired a few ideas I'm also willing to try.
Ah, so it's more so a personal preference. I'm not dogmatic for the metronome, I'm just told it helps rhythm so I do it (I personally prefer to play without it).

You must learn the difference between practice and playing if you ever want to practice so you can play better. It is more than slowing down, it is breaking it down note by note, trying different fingering. Looking at your hand .  Not looking at your hand. Sometimes the metronome helps with forcing you to stay in control and not let yourself go into motor-memory mode. Most of the time , practice has no resemblance to the finished performance.

Lol, I confess, I don't really fancy the actual music of Czerny's etudes, but I don't mind how crappy the music is as I view them merely as a sporting drill, so to speak. Thanks for your advice!
Lmao, I love the disclosure at the end. My metronomes are indeed electronic - in my yamaha and laptop - I shall throw them both out the window after this post.  

A question I do have for you guys is: Since this rhythm issue isn't due to the song I am practicing in particular, do you think it's okay to move on? Smoothing out rhythm seems to be something to come with time, not a particular song do you guys agree?

-Ashton

No, you are confusing smoothing out rhythm with control. Control does come with time if you take the time to try and understand control. Control is where the metronome is a great tool to practice with. You cannot smooth out rhythm. It is 1, 2, 3, 4 , etc. nothing to smooth out here

[hfmadopter]

Yeah, I've got the fastest fingers around Moscow, although I never practised Hanon or Czerny...

Technique is not the ability to move; you already have that from birth.
Technique is the art of producing the right sound at the right time to express MUSIC. Of course, you need your fingers to do that, but the challenge is in the music. Hanon is good if your mindset is good, and so is Czerny: they're just another opportunity to use your fingers to do something else: you want to produce the sound you expect. Without the expectation it's useless. The problem with Hanon and Czerny is that it's... well... poor music.

Paul

Yes in deed, I remember my teacher telling me that many of her students will end up playing their pieces perfectly in terms of every note hit but unfortunately they will never make beautiful music. This was in confidence that music comes from within. This was at about the 5 year mark or so.  Many people will not express their music well perhaps, I don't know maybe it can be taught. Anyway, NO metronome, I don't know where it is, lost it years ago. But my teacher only used hers on me a couple of times and it was mostly to get up to speed. I do believe that if you depend solely on the metronome you will create clinically perfect music ( I.E. on beat) but perhaps never beautiful music.

I love music that sings to me because in my mind I sing the music all day long almost 24/7 ( maybe not in my sleep). I can not sing out loud or perhaps I would, the piano is my instrument to let out my music. The metronome on the other hand, reminds me of a time bomb !

[j_menz]

I do believe that if you depend solely on the metronome you will create clinically perfect music ( I.E. on beat) but perhaps never beautiful music.

I think the danger is that you will wind up with music in which the timing is correct, but where there is no sense whatsoever of the actual rhythm of the piece.

Consider as an example a bar of six quavers. It is different in 3/4 and 6/8. If you rely on the metronome to get you there, that difference will not be apparent.

[ajspiano]

I think the danger is that you will wind up with music in which the timing is correct, but where there is no sense whatsoever of the actual rhythm of the piece.

Consider as an example a bar of six quavers. It is different in 3/4 and 6/8. If you rely on the metronome to get you there, that difference will not be apparent.

I remember a friend from high-school who could play well in time with a metronome, but could not play in time with a band. We tried to do a rock version of flight of the bumble bee (bumble boogie arrangement) - I was drumming, and was driven insane by his inability to stay in time with me. No ensemble playing experience at all, which is evidently better for your sense of time than a metronome is..