Chopin op10-10(Video) project update 27-6-12

[johnmar78]

Folks, today, I did something unusual, I deleberate playing it slowly and making it sound very relaxwd and musical. I think I set a new world record of slow playing haaaaaaaaaaa. A single take with no sound editing.

Have a listen tell me what you think... dated 15-6-12

I hate the stupid pedal at the end making a squeek for no reason. Probably due to cold weather???
27-6-12, update

I have noticed in some professinal/worldclass  recordings, the LH sometimes is almost inaudiable. I tried to fix this problem as from my 15-6-12 take.

Its winter here 12C in my room with no heater on(I never ever had one). I have focused more on the LH articulations and harmony. teachers throw your comments in,,,Yes, motion researcher....thanks

[nyiregyhazi]

Folks, today, I did something unusual, I deleberate playing it slowly and making it sound very relaxwd and musical. I think I set a new world record of slow playing haaaaaaaaaaa. A single take with no sound editing.

Have a listen tell me what you think...

I hate the stupid pedal at the end making a squeek for no reason. Probably due to cold weather???

If you'll forgive my honesty, you're allowing far too many physical holes- which urgently need to be sorted out in rigorous practise of small-sections. Your hands are not creating enough movement- but are simply sagging down into the keys. This takes all the clarity out of your sound and causes a good deal of tonal uneveness, much of the time. If you want to develop productively from this style of practise, you need to treat slow work as being an opportunity for the fingers to move with greater intensity- not as an opportunity to slump into the keys with minimal activation. You need to be much harsher with yourself about the holes- and stop to fix them at once. The whole point of this type of practise speed should be building extreme precision and assurance- that prepares you for letting it fly at faster speeds. If you don't demand precision and assurance in this speed, how is it going to occur at higher speeds?

Sorry if this sounds rude- but you need to demand more of yourself, if you are to reach your potential. Listen to the left hand in the first few bars. It's very uneven and many notes are virtually inaudible, if sounded at all. I'd spend a good few hours working at just three or four left hand bars alone before going any further. These studies required detailed work with high-expectations from the smallest segments. There's little to be gained from playing through long stretches, without stopping to fix such serious fundamental issues.

[p2u_]

Have a listen tell me what you think...

Thank you for your really BRAVE attempt to go slowly! It's a difficult etude and my general comments would be along the lines N. already gave you. I have to grant you a discount, though, because going so slowly makes you very vulnerable. In order not to repeat what N. said, I'd like to add something. Don't take this as negative; my intention is to encourage you.

I'm sure you might take it even slower but still be more active. Relaxation has its downside, you know; the tone becomes kind of flabby if you do that, while it should sound more concentrated actually.

One other thing I noticed: could it be that you do not always anticipate harmonic changes? A good singer can suggest harmony, even if he sings only with his voice. That's a bit what I miss at times.

Looking forward to more of this.

Paul

[johnmar78]

thanks Naji and ps2, dnt feel so rude, its the main idea I posted as an project so, I attempted to play too soft, many be this is the problem. I need more hands movements..I see. I was trying playing veryclose to the keys .. Let me see I will get better in next 4 weeks. Very Good you guys have pointed out so as my best piano rival Naji-just joking. I will try again try to listen more carefully with my playing. At least this attempt is  better than my previous one that I often ignored my LH clarity as pointed out by Wolfi.  Back to drawing board....

[p2u_]

I need more hands movements..I see. I was trying playing veryclose to the keys ..

Let me get this straight: You don't have to make your movements bigger! Very close to the keys is OK. The movements themselves should be more INTENSIVE (the fingertips more active) and the touch a little more varied so as to contrast the 3 main sections more. The left hand should have a beautiful legato effect throughout, not necessarily physically tying the notes everywhere. You may want to have a look at Cortot's remarks too. And don't forget to listen to the harmony changes and convey them to the listener.

Paul

[johnmar78]

Ps2, yes Sir. got your advice locked in. I actually just finishe dpractice this op10-10 and just repling you. I did discover lots LH, long eb notes that I misread right at the start. This is the down fall of palying from memory. I also discorverd, the LH harmoney change at mid section when changed to minor keys(twice). thanks again....

[johnmar78]

here you go folks

27-6-12 take

[krajcher]

Nice attempt, it is very difficult piece. But it still needs some work.

In my view it is good for you to abandon practising frequently this piece (you know it very well, you can always go back to it ) and concern on improving your technique on other pieces. Playing a little bit too difficult pieces over and over doesn't give quick effects.

I wish I didn't sound inpolite .


Best wishes

[danhuyle]

Nice attempt, it is very difficult piece. But it still needs some work.

In my view it is good for you to abandon practising frequently this piece (you know it very well, you can always go back to it ) and concern on improving your technique on other pieces. Playing a little bit too difficult pieces over and over doesn't give quick effects.

I wish I didn't sound inpolite .


Best wishes

I do that with a lot of pieces. If you're practicing the same piece frequently and are afraid to leave thinking that you'll forget it, then it clearly is hard.

You are doing better than before John

[johnmar78]

thanks Kj and Dan, these days, I use op10-10 as an warm up exercise or so called hand massage exercise . When time is right I probably will speed up a little. Every input from PS is a plus to me.
At the moment I am also working on some Schuman and liszt works to keep out by bordron.

[nyiregyhazi]

thanks Kj and Dan, these days, I use op10-10 as an warm up exercise or so called hand massage exercise . When time is right I probably will speed up a little. Every input from PS is a plus to me.
At the moment I am also working on some Schuman and liszt works to keep out by bordron.

Firstly, it's definitely a big improvement and there's much more sense of a line- with far fewer of the "holes" in the sound. However, I do feel that you still need to make major overhauls, in order to make your work on it truly useful to your technical development. I'm not sure if it's a good warm-up, because your hand is still having to do a lot of stiffening again collapse (especially the right hand 5th finger)- rather than moving freely. There's a risk that you're going to be more inclined to cause certain muscles to tighten- rather than loosen them up. I know the feeling well- as I used to have a very similar habit with my right hand 5- where the only muscular activations were based on trying to solidify it to transfer arm pressure. I had huge problems when it came to actually having to move it- that I've improved upon but still have enormous amounts of work to do on.

I have a few thoughts that I hope would be useful. There's a chapter in Alan Fraser's new book (All thumbs) where he mentions a lesson he taught me a couple of years back. He speaks about how although my hand was activating, it was only doing so to save itself from collapsing into a cluster under arm pressure- not to create genuine movement of the fingers through the keys. While I can see how it would be easy for people to say- "well you would say that", I think this describes perfectly what is happening here. The way you use the arm is to bear down through the hand- which then has to brace itself to transfer that pressure. You are moving more than before- but there's still a sense that the hand is acting under duress, beneath the surface. It's responding to pressures, rather than instigating movement from an easy position. Imagine the difference between if you know someone is going to push you and you try to clench your body into staying stable- compared to if you simply move to push them before they can push you. The latter is freer and substantially less effort- yet it achieves so much more. In piano playing, it's less effort if the finger starts moving first- than if the arm presses and the finger has to try to immobilise itself against an oncoming force.

I think you need to do a lot of work on how you conceive the arm motions. At the moment, they are geared towards generating pressure though the hand- which the hand then has to fixate to transfer. Also, you often tend to get stuck behind the individual finger (after this downward pressure), before instigating an extra movement to get to the next one. It ALMOST flows, but there's a sense of slightly stopping for each finger, rather than continously drifting in a fluid path. This makes the movements a lot more complex. It's very hard to flow if there are downward pressures through separate notes, than if the fingers are creating the downward movement- while the arm keeps flowing over the top of them.

I think you need to find a way of moving the arm, not to generate pressure through the fingers, but to actively AVOID pressing through the hand (especially with the right hand 5th finger). It's a complete reversal of the conception of what the arm is for. Picture the arm drifting from side to side (often in circles for the left hand) to help take the fingers to their keys- but don't bear down through them! Use it as a reminder to the finger to move its key- but keep the arm drifting towards the next finger while that finger moves. Don't stop for the finger! At first, you'll find that many fingers are simply not generating enough movement to create tone without the arm pressing (especially the right hand 5th). You need to work on going very slow (so there's time to be sure that the finger moves out enough to get right through the key)- but never stopping the flow of the arm movement while this happens. I'd work on something like the left hand of the D flat nocturne, in order to acquire this style of motion in something slower and less challenging, before trying to apply it to this study. It's just too complex to achieve fine control, until the arm movements are truly light and ongoing, rather than based on digging through fingers.

Also, with the R.H. I'd practise very slow without the 2nd finger note (ie. just broken octaves from 1 to 5). Lift the fifth finger first (keeping the thumb down) and then let it slowly descend until it's touching the key- but don't let the knuckle droop down. From here, work on reaching out through the key, while the arm slightly drifts  up and out (to prevent any downward arm pressure). With this approach, the finger will have no choice but to start creating genuine movement- which will slowly begin to loosen the tightness that will inevitably be building up from your arm pressures. Over time it will become more and more easy to genuinely move through the keys with the finger, even when the 2nd is brought back into it.

[johnmar78]

thanks Andrew, what a detailed write up. I have to read few times and tried to apply these priciples to my playing. It takes time.
I think my 5th finger is dead now due to op10-1. ..ok let me incoporate more near future. Thanks again.

[nyiregyhazi]

thanks Andrew, what a detailed write up. I have to read few times and tried to apply these priciples to my playing. It takes time.
I think my 5th finger is dead now due to op10-1. ..ok let me incoporate more near future. Thanks again.

I know exactly what you're talking about in that one! One trick I'd recommend is not to do the standard outwards rotation for op. 10 no. 1. Instead rotate in the very opposite direction- so the fifth finger knuckle is up high, right over the key- with no choice for the finger but to reach through the key with true movement (same for op. 10 no. 10). Try to push the knuckle up even higher still.

I don't think either direction of rotation is inherently wrong, but if you get too caught up letting the side of the hand slump down, the 5th finger easily becomes lifeless. I got totally lost in an inactive 5th. When you do a lot of work rotating in the other direction, you free up way more possibilities, by leaving the finger with no choice but move. Ultimately, it's even possible to go back to the more standard rocking outwards, once the 5th has learned how to move properly.

[johnmar78]

I have just tried the new approach as mentioned above. Guess what?
IT IS A NEW DIMENSION, I can feel how light my hands is as vs my old way. It is working, yes....
Where, I should say a BIG thank to Andrew. Your observation is best to none.  . 

[nyiregyhazi]

I have just tried the new approach as mentioned above. Guess what?
IT IS A NEW DIMENSION, I can feel how light my hands is as vs my old way. It is working, yes....
Where, I should say a BIG thank to Andrew. Your observation is best to none.  .  

Great! I'm glad it's helping. I'm still only just beginning to be able to put these things properly into practise myself (and have holes all over the place), but I think the process I'm still going through has helped give me a good eye for those moments where people end up forcing the hand to brace against arm pressures.

[pts1]

.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, this is just insane.

I wasn't going to say anything after reading your long winded, confusing, unhelpful previous post to an intermediate student, but this one really goes over the line.

Next you're going to start telling him to poke the key with your "extension" theory.

You can do anything you want to yourself, but I think its really irresponsible to throw this kind of backwards lunacy at someone trying to understand basic principles of piano playing.

Well, it's the basic "standing up" action that Alan Fraser describes as the basis of technique. You don't think he knows what he's talking about? And Richard Beauchamp too is a lunatic?

If you feel the whole of piano technique should be based on an action that is constantly tightening the knuckles together  (and that all other movements are to be prohibited) that's my own idea of "lunacy". Personally I'm more concerned by whether it helps him than what you think about it. Personally I believe in a variety of actions- but there are few more important than those that serve to expand the hand's range of movement. A pianist with access to that action can also use purer knuckle pulls whenever desired- hence training a range of different actions and capabilities. Perhaps you're of the mindset that owning a Playstation 3 requires you to heap abuse on the Xbox 360 but, when there's open access to both, personally I see no reason not to enjoy both.

He's not going to find comfortable stability, by scraping his fingers across the surface of every key. When he has acquired a deeper foundation in stability without fixation, he can go on to use all kinds of possibilities- including the one you favour.

[pts1]

.

[nyiregyhazi]

N:

I'm not going to take the bait, I'm simply saying this:

To play the first Chopin Etude and advise rotating one's hand to the left as you move up the keyboard, is unnatural and idiotic.

This is what you're suggesting.

I don't care who advises it, its simply nuts.

There's no bait. You're the one suggesting my rather straightforward advice is "ludicrous", but I'm going to stick to the topic and keep it objective. Rotating to the left is not unnatural at all. Watch the film again and note his severely collapsed fifth finger position. Look at films of artists like Rubinstein and Pletnev- who regularly play with a vertical fifth finger. In order to awaken the actions of the fifth finger, the simplest approach is getting into that type of position- where it keeps itself up by simply maintaining its length. Later on he can play in less extreme positions that are not so close to vertical- but the first step is to train the little finger to perform it's basic actions.


Rocking to the right is the thing that makes the least sense, if you think about it. It sends the line of action (of what is already one of the weakest fingers) totally off the line of the key- leaving it with little capability of doing anything but falling into the key. That doesn't make for either speed or control. He needs to use the finger in a direct line, in order to train its capabilities in a simple context. From there, he will likely go on to find somewhere in the middle is the most effective.

If you want to reply I politely ask that you keep it civil and on-topic. I disagreed with your points in the other thread (just as you disagreed with mine). I didn't attack you and have no intention of doing so, not matter how aggressively you wish to phrase your disagreement. I disagree with arguments (if I consider there to be sound objective reasoning for doing so) and not with people. I have not the slightest interest in a personal feud.

PS see Pogorelich here:

You can't get over the 5th like that by letting the hand droop to the outside. It requires room to be made for the 5th to involve itself- by allowing the hand to be turned slightly towards the thumb side. Is Pogorelich's technique "idiotic"?

[krajcher]

Well, it's the basic "standing up" action that Alan Fraser describes as the basis of technique. You don't think he knows what he's talking about? And Richard Beauchamp too is a lunatic?

I don't know who is Richard Beauchamp but I got to know with Alan Fraser on youtube and in my opinion he can't be passed as an authority, so he may not know what he is talking about.


Best wishes

[johnmar78]

Have a look my friend Rafel(i got his concerto cd for the comp), he happens to be a flat finger , may be his fingers are too long.

&feature=related

This year is the year I put my work into my piano playing.
What I have noticed this year my technique has further improved thru these chopin studies and adviced from PS. I noticed that high knuckle position(5th) and less downforce allowed me more free flow across the keyboard, as mentioned by Nyhazi. Not only that Pt1 aslo added the method of Roy,who inclined playing using "plucking" actions. I later combined these three methods and did a trial and to see, which gives me the best "control" and feeling over the keyboard, of couse the "effecicy" comes first. I noticed in some sections of piano work required certain flexibility and therefore bending rules is allowed. To prove these results I will post my video later on when time is right and you guys can have another evaluation. Meanwhile, please SMILE to everyone and be civil. mAy be its my turn to treat.

[rachfan]

Hi johnmar,

I just listened to your latest Chopin Op. 10, No. 10.  There is very definite improvement evident in this rendition.  I notice more evenness in playing the line, and you've largely fixed the problem of notes not sounding in the articulation.  There are a few minor slips, but they are not enough to be distracting.  By and large I believe you play this piece not only with musicality, but also with more artistry now.

At this point, I would put the piece away for awhile.  As you play other pieces, you'll find that what you learned in Etude 10/10 is a skill that will be readily transferable any piece that might also require that technique.  Also when the time comes to revisit 10/10, and after some initial brushing up, you'll be surprised by the results.  The reason is that when you give a piece a rest, your subconscious continues to work on the difficulties and some get resolved.  

Thanks for sharing your progress on this work.

David