Piano as an athletic pursuit?

[toby1]

Ok so this post, and my questions are motivated by a couple things. A random quote I read somewhere about many pianists focussing on the "athletic" side of the piano whereas the performer being interviewed wanted to be remembered for his interpretations/expression. Secondly by a documentary I saw about sports training methods and there being different energy systems in the body. It named the lactic acid system, the aerobic system and the anaerobic system.

Which has me thinking: Can playing the piano be approached as an athletic pursuit but with a focus on fine motor control of the fingers, wrists and the muscles in the fore-arms?

Has there been research into what energy systems high level pianists use? There are studies into the physical movements of sports people in order to improve their performance, has there been any such thing for the piano?

What I'm thinking of is, at least early in my development, looking at my practice from a kind of pseudo-athletic perspective where I'm focussing on training my muscles to perform certain tasks ie legato, staccato, playing at speed etc. Maybe it's a little mad but do you think this is a useful approach? I've seen a few documentaries two where they did motion caption to map the movements of martial artists. It would be really interesting to see the same thing done with a high level pianist. I'm not sure the technology is advanced enough to capture those finely developed movements of a concert pianist to see if they're doing something special physically when they perform the movements that let them create the amazing music we get to hear.

This is mostly a fantasy/idea at this stage. I'm imagining a pianist in training performing a kind of formal training regimen to develop sensitivity, control, accuracy, dexterity and speed not unlike the way a boxer does specific exercises to develop their skills, or a sprinter, or a basketball player.

What do you think that would look like. Technical work perhaps, or a really structured regimen of pieces that target specific techniques and build the skills that lead to playing pieces like the Ocean Etude by Chopin. There's a lot more money in sports research than there is in research into musicians, so maybe that's something we could discuss here. Even if it's something as simple as

Start with Minuet in G by Bach

(Insert Repertoire here)

Rondo alla Turca by Beethoven

(Other pieces here)

Concerto number 3 in D minor by Rachmaninov

[toby1]

I'm doing a follow up to give more detail, thoughts.

In high school teaching we speak about scaffolding, about building skills through a structured program. So why not something like a training program for pianists.

Interval training might be necessary.

Sprints as well as endurance training. Something this highly researched and this structured might not ever get truly approached the same way researchers approach training procedures for elite athletes but I'd love to see a development program like that be created for pianists.

Partly because I believe that a piano is a creation of wood and metal, being played by a flesh and blood human being. If we're creating a picture or telling a story we're still doing it by translating energy and movements from our hands and arms and body to he piano which converts them into sound energy which we interpret with our ears/brains etc.

It's not magic, it's biology and physics turned to a specific task.

My crazy thoughts here anyway. Please chime in with your thoughts!

[graceandbeauty]

Welllll... let me see I think that this might have some truth and that certain training methods could be useful but if the artistry is lost and the piano is excellent but it all about teechnique the individuality of piano playing and the artistry could be lost in one sense I don't know if this makes sense but I think that piano should not in its entirety be taught like a sports. Sports are not arts for obvious reasons. Why should an art become a sport? Like look at ballet I am a ballet enthusiast so I would now that art cannot be treated like a sport or else you will end with some technically brilliant yet totally boring dancers with no emotion. Do you understand or am I not making sense.....

[toby1]

You make perfect sense, my idea here was mostly exploring the early development of a pianist. Early as a pianist the main focus is attaining the technique necessary to express yourself in an artistic manner. You try to master technique, then when it's second nature you use it to express emotion, tell a story or paint a musical picture.

That's my understanding of how I am meant to approach music. Or at least to approach classical music. Maybe this is why I'm an amateur who plays on an electronic piano in my bedroom though instead of on a Steinway in a concert hall

[p2u_]

You try to master technique, then when it's second nature you use it to express emotion, tell a story or paint a musical picture.

Not stalking you (just saying)

That is the traditional view on it, but it is not what prodigies do. You cannot learn "technique" (in the sense of mechanics) and delay the "expression" for later. Good technique is the art of making the right sound in the right musical context and should be incorporated from the very beginning. Only the musical sound image can create true technique, otherwise we create typewriters, not musicians. If you are a good "typewriter" (who hits the right keys in the right time and nothing more), you will still have lots of trouble playing the repertoire; you will even have to change your technique, so why choose such a road?

As to the sports aspect; there is something of sports present, of course, especially when you have to play the real virtuoso repertoire, but a strict "sports" approach will get you nowhere.

Paul

[j_menz]

You cannot learn "technique" (in the sense of mechanics) and delay the "expression" for later. Good technique is the art of making the right sound in the right musical context and should be incorporated from the very beginning.

+ 1 from me.

Also, to OP, Rondo alla Turca is Mozart; Beethoven's is the Turkish March

[ajspiano]

To be honest I find the on going insistence of student pianists to learn technique in isolation from music quite baffling.

There should always be a "this is what we are trying to achieve musically" that leads to a "how do I do it technically?" if the mechanical approach is required. Even the more detailed analysis  systems that exist such as the the taubman system are not (as far as I see them) intended to be studied in isolation from music - they are technical systems studied to create the physiological freedom required to allow oneself to focus on the sound image and vary musical dynamics with ease..

To the best of my knowledge these are applied to music as soon as possible, which is very soon within the learning process. As in day 1.

Personally, when I take such an approach with a student (technical advice regarding how to move to achieve a musical intent) the impact in that isolated example is usually instant, providing that my advice was good and the student understood correctly (getting to that may sometimes take a little while ). Then there is no need to take an ongoing athletic approach there after - we can just focus on music.

[pytheamateur]

This thread reminds me of the advice that Eleanor Wong, a renowed piano teacher in Hong Kong reportedly gave to her student Colleen Lee, who won 6th prize at the 2005 Chopin International Competition in Warsaw.

Apparently, Ms Lee studied with Ms Wong since an early age.  Ms Lee was not a strong child.  Ms Wong advised her to take up swimming, who went on to become a keen swimmer.  According to Ms Wong, swimming helps improve "Chi", a source of internal energy in your body, which is also relied on when you play the piano.  Chi is a rather abstract concept, but from what I understand here it might simply mean a better level of physical fitness, which of course would be of benefit when you play demanding passages.  In addition, swimming is a good exercise for your arms, involving many movements that are similar to piano playing.

[p2u_]

According to Ms Wong, swimming helps improve "Chi", a source of internal energy in your body, which is also relied on when you play the piano.  Chi is a rather abstract concept, but from what I understand here it might simply mean a better level of physical fitness, which of course would be of benefit when you play demanding passages.

Yes, Qi (pronounced Chi) is not physical power; it's the explosive kinetic energy you break bricks with in one blow without hurting yourself.

Paul