Limits of Self Teaching

[cas70]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.  I was surprised when he told me I'd taught myself all wrong and that I would pretty much have to start over if I wanted to be any good.  He explained that I'd have to learn how to properly use my arms, hold my hands, strike the keys.  Is this true or is it just self-serving stuff coming from a piano teacher wanting more work?

[m1469]

I can't say that I really know it's true that you need an overhaul, but it's plausible that it's true.  Here is one thing about that kind of work - it's not easy, for the student OR the teacher!  It really requires a special commitment on both people's part that is very much centered around a deeper value of music and life.  So, that is not really the kind of work a person does just for job-security.  That is, at least if they are really working at it.

I can relate to your story though.  I can't say that I know whether my technique for most of my life was good or bad or right or wrong, because I was "self-taught" for nearly all of my life and what I did worked for me and for the music I grew up playing, which was almost entirely my own music through improvisation and composition.  I didn't even begin serious lessons until I was 21/22 and in University, studying music.  It was at this point, when I started practicing everyday and sitting at the piano for hours each day, truly studying Classical music for nearly the first time ever, working at my craft that I either developed bad habits or they simply became apparent to me (through pain, at first, and then numerous other things as time went along).  After a giant slump, I started again in the Fall of 2008 and aside from having adjusted some things in my posture (and learning a couple of related things) before that, which has stuck with me since then, I was in a position of starting over in a very real way.  Believe me, it's not been a cake-walk for my teachers.

[pianoplunker]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.  I was surprised when he told me I'd taught myself all wrong and that I would pretty much have to start over if I wanted to be any good.  He explained that I'd have to learn how to properly use my arms, hold my hands, strike the keys.  Is this true or is it just self-serving stuff coming from a piano teacher wanting more work?

It could easily be both. He may be a self-server looking for more work, and be able to help you.  It appears he is correct. In order to play piano well you actually need to use use your fingers/wrists/forearms/shoulders/back  and then of course strike the keys. Although I think "strike" does not fit as a description .  

[ajspiano]

Its not uncommon for people to be able to teach themselves to a point and then "hit the wall" (so to speak) due to technical flaws and be unable to progress without fixing them. Its also possible that the technical flaws are so severe that the pianist will have to completely start over. The "wall" is going to be in different places for each individual. If someone is practicing with a severely flawed technique then the longer they go without fixing it, the more ingrained it will become and the more un-learning they'll have to do, which is a long tedious process, given that you have to go back and re-learn easy things that you have previously learnt. You have to take them slowly and surely and focus a lot - its frustrating because you will want to revert to your old ways because you can play the stuff much more easily that way to begin with.

Its entirely plausible that you're in a situation where you would benefit from completely reworking your technique. I'm certainly not going to make comment on that without having seen your playing in person though. I know a competent pianist who went through this after having completed a music degree - took nearly 3 years I think. So thats potentially what you're in for time wise, depending on the quality of your teacher/guide..

[p2u_]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.

Sad to hear. You were in a process nobody else but you can understand. Of course, if you introduce a third party, especially a "learned" one, ahum, he/she will interfere, and not always for the best. He managed to make you feel unsure of your own abilities; what a feat!?! Were there no other options? And why did you even invite that teacher? Did you have pain? What you need is not a teacher, but a person who is ready to step down from his high horse and be your colleague for a minute.

Paul

[pianoplunker]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.  I was surprised when he told me I'd taught myself all wrong and that I would pretty much have to start over if I wanted to be any good.  He explained that I'd have to learn how to properly use my arms, hold my hands, strike the keys.  Is this true or is it just self-serving stuff coming from a piano teacher wanting more work?

One thing you might try as a self-teaching method is to make a finger excersize out of the difficult passages and see if that helps you get them down. But you have to understand why it is difficult in order to benefit. Example: if it is difficult because of a place where fingers cross over each other , then maybe you need more work with moving your arms and that is what you should focus on for the excersize. Do it in different keys - I know easier said than done, but building yet another skill: to be able to transpose on the fly. $$$$$ 

[j_menz]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.  I was surprised when he told me I'd taught myself all wrong and that I would pretty much have to start over if I wanted to be any good.  He explained that I'd have to learn how to properly use my arms, hold my hands, strike the keys.  Is this true or is it just self-serving stuff coming from a piano teacher wanting more work?

It's possible that he's right, but I'd be surprised if you had gone quite that far off track. I'd ask for a second opinion (ie, try another teacher and see what they say).

[ajspiano]

Sad to hear. You were in a process nobody else but you can understand. Of course, if you introduce a third party, especially a "learned" one, ahum, he/she will interfere, and not always for the best. He managed to make you feel unsure of your own abilities; what a feat!?! Were there no other options? And why did you even invite that teacher? Did you have pain? What you need is not a teacher, but a person who is ready to step down from his high horse and be your colleague for a minute.

Paul

I rather hate the fact that the word "teacher" is associated with such problematic approaches to learning..

[p2u_]

I rather hate the fact that the word "teacher" is associated with such problematic approaches to learning..

Unfortunately, many who don't have the inner and divine calling to be a Teacher trigger such associations by how they approach students.

Paul

[ajspiano]

Unfortunately, many who don't have the inner and divine calling to be a Teacher trigger such associations by how they approach students.

Paul

Indeed - buggered if I know why such people get involved with teaching, they must hate it and have very sporadic success. Money no doubt..  Still, I can't imagine having limited success in a field and not considering that it may have something to do with my own actions rather than the actions of those around me exclusively.

[graceandbeauty]

Hmm I don't know that everything is wrong bu I cannot see you... I am teaching myself currently but not after I had taken 5-6 years of classes with an excellent teacher. I do constantly feel like ohh if only I had a teacher. The thing is she would point out problems you and me would never see especially sense you haven't been playing long. Maybe get a second opinion from another teacher don't be afraid to find a teacher that works for you you are paying them! I have a tough teacher and I believe that is good but I think the others are right that was pretty blunt!

[m1469]

I wanted to add that a need for an overhaul doesn't necessarily mean a person is doing everything wrong, in fact, it can be that there are many things that are right, with the exception of one essential ingredient:  A proper foundation.  And, when I say proper, all I mean is basically one which can and will support everything you're doing right in a way that will help you reach a higher potential, vs. work against you.  It's amazing what having something fundamental out of place or missing can do to a lot of other things being there and in place, it makes it nearly so that no matter what else you have going for you doesn't really matter or truly amount to much.  

I had one quite talented student who would be a perfect candidate for an overhaul on a fundamental level, I believe.  However, s/he lacks discipline and a desire to work, and s/he really doesn't have ambitions to do much besides play certain styles of pieces that s/he enjoys.  There is a lot that s/he does which is right and good and functional, but there is something essential missing at the foundation and without that, I believe there will always be a certain limit or kind of handicap on what can be achieved (as well as a certain level of unfulfillment, btw).  As a teacher, I would never enter a certain road of tearing down and rebuilding for my sake, with somebody who I can clearly see doesn't want that.  With this particular person, I wonder if one day something will become clear to them and s/he'll more or less wake up and need a new path, but maybe not, and in that case there is only so much that a teacher can say or do.  

In my case, I have been deeply seeking that foundation physically, intellectually, spiritually, musically, pianistically.   I could feel something was wrong, and I'm still growing now of course, but I can generally feel my pianistic expression at least "sitting" upon something now.  

[p2u_]

I wanted to add that a need for an overhaul doesn't necessarily mean a person is doing everything wrong, in fact, it can be that there are many things that are right, with the exception of one essential ingredient:  A proper foundation.

But then, you are a much more considerate person (high EQ) who knows the Power of Words. I can hardly imagine you would use the phrasing the teacher in question used, because this suggests nothing but doom and failure. Basically, he is saying that everything the topic starter has done so far was for nothing. I wonder if one can learn music (true phrasing and intonation) from such people. Cheap tricks like how to frighten people: yes.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

It's possible that he's right, but I'd be surprised if you had gone quite that far off track. I'd ask for a second opinion (ie, try another teacher and see what they say).

If the second opinion is that things are basically all fine, it could simply be that the other teacher has less of an eye for what is needed and is less able to offer good assistance.

[chopantasy]

Basically, he is saying that everything the topic starter has done so far was for nothing. I wonder if one can learn music (true phrasing and intonation) from such people. Cheap tricks like how to frighten people: yes.

I can certainly see it taking 3 years to undo 3 years of malpractice.  What's the beef?

[p2u_]

I can certainly see it taking 3 years to undo 3 years of malpractice.  What's the beef?

I have NEVER met anyone who would need that much. As a matter of fact, if the question the student had was about movement, then even one or two sessions may be enough to show him the way. If the phrasing in the first post was really the teacher's, and not misunderstood by the topic starter, then I have to conclude that the teacher is just trying to extort money for services that the topic starter does not need.
1) The topic starter was doing OK.
2) The topic starter was not in pain.

Paul

[chopantasy]

I have NEVER met anyone who would need that much.

May have taken me twice as long!

[m1469]

It may show itself in motions, etc., and those are obviously relevant and important, but the real solvent has to be on a fundamental level of musical organization; the point of origin where all motions, and all musical concepts begin.  

[p2u_]

It may show itself in motions, etc., and those are obviously relevant and important, but the real solvent has to be on a fundamental level of musical organization; the point of origin where all motions, and all musical concepts begin.

Of course, but suppose, for example, that anybody had interfered in the process Sviatoslav Richter (virtually self-taught) was in, would he have been a better pianist? I very much doubt so. As a matter of fact, I think a teacher would have killed his artistic personality by drawing the wrong conclusions. Of course, there must have been times in all those years that Richter was on the wrong path both technically and musically, but interfering at that time would have been wrong anyway.

Paul

[m1469]

Well, we can think and guess of course all we want regarding Richter, and in the end it's just conjecture and even if it weren't, we're all individual and on our own, individual paths.  So, what worked for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.  But, none of that proves anything in particular to the original poster regarding whether or not a teacher is perceiving something helpful on their behalf.  

[m1469]

Pain or injury aren't the only reasons, nor actually even the real reason to start over from scratch.  I had pain when I first started studying Classical music and when I first started practicing for at least 3 hours a day every day, but that in the same form didn't last.  The real reason to start from scratch is just to healthfully reorganize, basically, and that means there needs to be some kind of psychologically clean slate.  That means, in some cases, it's appropriate to shock a student into mentally starting over, letting go of *whatever* they might feel they need to hold onto from before, even if there was something(s) positive that was developed, and building from the ground up.  That's probably one reason I haven't been improvising a whole lot once I started seriously studying again, as in some ways I've even needed to let go of that.  I have very recently been recognizing more that I need to let go of, too, and I'm going to learn how to do that.  And, the point is, no matter what good has been accomplished before a reset, if there is a problem causing a reset to be necessary, then in a very real way it truly doesn't matter what was accomplished technically before, because it was never the full, real thing.  That is my opinion anyway.  

One thing about Richter, vs. me, besides the obvious fact that he was Richter and I am me  , is that he at least grew up in the Classical world, he grew up accompanying operas, etc., as far as I know.  So, he was at least speaking the language.  He also had a lot of musical interaction with others.  I didn't.  Musically speaking, I was nearly in complete isolation except for singing in choir since 5th grade, and listening to the FM radio until I started studying music in University.  I created my own musical language at the piano.  There are probably some interesting things about that, but I will tell you that I reached a point in my teens where I was already not satisfied with what I was listening to, and later with what I was playing.  And since I started to study Classical music, I wasn't satisfied without it, and without continuing to learn and grow as a Classical pianist.  I don't think I've actually lost my musical personality, but I am giving myself permission to find it as it reveals itself to me again, and I feel that my teachers ultimately support that very thing for me, though there is some true training involved in my work with them.

[p2u_]

Pain or injury aren't the only reasons, nor actually even the real reason to start over from scratch.  [...]

OK. But let me ask you a question. I'll give you a couple of situations.

Situation 1: A person comes to you or calls you on the phone and asks how he could possibly play this or that "difficult" trill in a piece while holding some elonged notes written in the score. Do you agree that it can be enough, for example, to say: "You don't have to hold those notes, so you can take over with other fingers"? If this gives the person more than enough fresh ideas to work for him/herself, is it really not better to leave such a person alone?

Situation 2: A person comes to you or calls you on the phone and asks you how to get that voice out in the middle without forcing the tone? Can it be enough, for example, to say: "Play the surrounding notes non-legato and the voice will come out by itself"? If this gives the person more than enough fresh ideas to work for him/herself, is it really not better to leave such a person alone?

Other situations ad libitum...

Paul

[m1469]

My three answers:

1.  It depends.  

2.  Enough for what?

3.  Better than what?

 

[p2u_]

2.  Enough for what?

3.  Better than what?

 

2. Give the person a chance to grow on his/her own, which is actually more valuable in growth than get everything with a spoon.

3. Giving answers to questions that were never asked, the problem of many courses in traditional education.



Paul

[m1469]

I refer back to my answer #1:  It (still) depends  .

To elaborate ever so slightly in one way where it depends, it can be dangerous to take even that seemingly-open philosophy in a set stance as an approach to all students (especially certain students), especially in all situations.  Also, it is worth considering innumerable, useful shades of that (or any) philosophy in any given situation.

[p2u_]

I refer back to my answer #1:  It (still) depends  .

To elaborate ever so slightly in one way where it depends, it can be dangerous to take even that as a set stance as an approach to all students.

What's so dangerous then? Please elaborate. I'll give you a limitation: you are on the phone, or someone has just come up to you and there is no piano available to make him/her play.

I ask because I have a feeling many teachers don't even want to share that kind of simple info with a person honestly asking for help. "Don't throw your pearls before swine" and stuff. At the same time, they are solutions that are not so logical to think of yourself as a "searching" person.

Paul

[m1469]

What's so dangerous then? Please elaborate. I'll give you a limitation: you are on the phone, or someone has just come up to you and there is no piano available to make him/her play.

Paul

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate a bit, first, since I assume this is not just some random voice from heaven, hell, or purgatory, calling as solely a voice with no other persona from some other dimension through the telephone, but rather a person on earth who has a background, has goals, has something in mind in relation to an actual piece, etc., etc., etc..    I'll give you a limitation, it has to be realistic, more defined, and obviously not a meandering, pointless tangent in order for me to respond with effort  .  And, anyway, I think I've scratched the tip of the iceberg in answering your question now.  

[p2u_]

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate a bit, first, since I assume this is not just some random voice from heaven, hell, or purgatory, calling through the telephone, but rather has a background, has goals, has something in mind in relation to an actual piece, etc., etc., etc..    I'll give you a limitation, it has to be realistic, more defined, and obviously not a meandering, pointless tangent for me to respond with effort  .

I have to tell you a story about myself, because I cannot really limit the situation for you. I don't know you enough to do that.

You've probably read that I am completely self-taught. When I was still in Holland, I used to sing in a restaurant. The man accompanying me on the piano was Laszlo, a Hungarian pianist with a VERY sad face who couldn't make a professional career as a pianist because the Germans had broken his hands during the war. He had an enormous repertoire and could actually play anything asked. I've learned much by just watching this man. I was developing myself on the piano, but I never played for him, and he never asked me to. But whenever I had a question about how to do this or that, he was always willing to share tricks of the trade that involved stuff you would never think of yourself. It was he who told me that one of Horowitz's tricks was not to play surrounding notes legato when it is not necessary to get essential voices out that should be legato. He was even able to show me how Horowitz did everything. These were not "lessons" in the traditional sense, but it was indispensible info for me to get where I am now. He was the best teacher I could ever get because he was ready to be my colleague. Hope that makes sense?

Paul

[ted]

I would be inclined to give the teacher a try for a reasonable period of time and see what happens. It will soon be very obvious to you whether or not improvement is likely to result. If the issue is mostly physical, then I agree with m1469 in that sometimes just one little adjustment can make a huge difference to just about everything.

The other thing you could do first is post a video clip of your playing these troublesome passages here on the forum. Reactions of the many players here should settle the matter pretty quickly for you one way or the other.   

[m1469]

I have to tell you a story about myself, because I cannot really limit the situation for you. I don't know you enough to do that.

You've probably read that I am completely self-taught. When I was still in Holland, I used to sing in a restaurant. The man accompanying me on the piano was Laszlo, a Hungarian pianist with a VERY sad face who couldn't make a professional career as a pianist because the Germans had broken his hands during the war. He had an enormous repertoire and could actually play anything asked. I've learned much by just watching this man. I was developing myself on the piano, but I never played for him, and he never asked me to. But whenever I had a question about how to do this or that, he was always willing to share tricks of the trade that involved stuff you would never think of yourself. It was he who told me that one of Horowitz's tricks was not to play surrounding notes legato when it is not necessary to get essential voices out that should be legato. He was even able to show me how Horowitz did everything. These were not "lessons" in the traditional sense, but it was indispensible info for me to get where I am now. He was the best teacher I could ever get because he was ready to be my colleague. Hope that makes sense?

Paul

Thanks for being personable, I appreciate it.  I have nothing against what you are talking about, and you apparently feel that it's worked wonderfully for you and for whatever you feel you want from your playing.  I myself learn in many ways and really from many people, because I make a point to learn from my surroundings, etc..  I've learned through reading posts on the forum, even from talking to somebody just over the telephone (though one time it actually involved some playing from me), and recently got very much (in an indescribable way) from an extremely short but quite potent exchange with somebody.  Even actually altering on a deep and fundamental level.  For whatever reason, it's as though I needed to meet this person and just needed exactly our exchange, exactly then.  But, my teachers are something very special to me and have a very unique place in my world, and I don't expect everybody to understand that.  The bottom line is that what you experienced worked for you and for whatever your goals are/were, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it.

[p2u_]

But, my teachers are something very special to me and have a very unique place in my world, and I don't expect everybody to understand that.

But that's great, really and very rare! I was never arguing against that by the way. Any person deserves what he/she is looking for.

Paul

[sueyin]

I've been teching myself to play the piano for about 3 years.  I thought I was doing pretty well but there were some passages that I was really having trouble with.  I finally had a teacher come over, expecting that he would give me a few tweaks to help me with the passages I had trouble with and then I could continue as before.  I was surprised when he told me I'd taught myself all wrong and that I would pretty much have to start over if I wanted to be any good.  He explained that I'd have to learn how to properly use my arms, hold my hands, strike the keys.  Is this true or is it just self-serving stuff coming from a piano teacher wanting more work?

Is it possible for you to post a video here of you playing a piece or part of a piece?  This way, you will have lots of eyes other than the teacher you paid for, give you their thoughts on your technique.

[m1469]

But that's great, really and very rare!

Yes, it feels like a musical, personal, and life adventure, and I feel very blessed to share it in this way with these individuals.