Level 8

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay, so I posted this some time ago, but I didn't get the discussion I wanted, so...  Yeah.


Student:  omg omg omg omg omg omg guess what happened!!!

Teacher:  *sigh* what now...

Student:  okay, so I just passed my grade 8 exam!!!  So that means that I can play anything in grade 8!!!  Which means that if it's in grade 8, then I can play it!  So in conclusion, I don't have to worry about whether or not something is playable for me.  Which leads to my other statement that if I'm playing something and I don't know what grade it's in, then it doesn't matter.  Which brings me to my next point that if I'm playing something in grade 8, then I don't have anything to worry about!  All of this is because I just passed my grade 8 exam!  If I failed, then I wouldn't be able to play anything in grade 8 because I wouldn't be good enough!  So in essence, due to the fact that I pas-

Teacher:  okay okay shut up!!!  

Student:  isn't that awesome?

Teacher:  cool story bro, say it again...

Student:  okay, so I just passed my grade 8 exam!!!  So that means that I can play anyth-

Teacher:  shut up!!!  If you say another thing about this grade 8 exam again, I'm gonna wring your neck!  Now hurry up and play this Rachmaninoff for me.  

*playing some Rachmaninoff prelude*

Teacher:  wow, you play this pretty well

Student:  that's because I passed my grade 8 exam!  If I didn't then I wouldn-

Teacher:  GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*later on that week, while looking for some new grade 8 pieces to play*

Student:  wow I can't believe I passed grade 8!  Hmmm I wonder what to play though, Prokofiev's second piano concerto, or Chopin's revolutionary etude?  They're both grade 8, so neither of them should be a problem for me!  I'll try Prokofiev's second piano concerto!  

*next piano lesson*

Student:  I'm going to learn this

*shows teacher the score for Prokofiev's second*

Teacher:  you're joking... Right?

student:  no, I'm serious!  I COULDN'T TELL WHICH ONE WAS HARDER BETWEEN REVOLUTIONRY ETUDE OR PROKOFIEV'S SECOND PIANO CONCERTO BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH GRADE 8, SO I'LL JUST DIVE IN TO PROKOFIEV'S SECOND.

Teacher: *there's no way he's gonna try this.  Does he think he's cool or something?*:  knock yourself out kid...  Idiot...

Student: what?

Teacher:  Oh, it's nothing...  Just nothing...

*some considerable amount of time later in the hospital*

Doctor:  well, it seems like you've shattered all of your fingers in 36 or more different places, fractured your skull, ripped out your tongue, broke all of your teeth, broke your nose, broke your face, broke both of your forearms in 29 places, dislocated your left wrist, Burnt your right wrist to the third degree, dislocated your hip into your spinal chord, blew up your right foot, broke three ribs so that they're now puncturing your heart, *deeeeeeep breath* AND you've somehow managed to contract every sexually transmitted disease known to man, the Ebola virus, bird flu, swine flu, osteomyelitis, osteoporosis, carpal tunnel, arthritis, elephantiasis in the hands, AND, aaaah forget it, I'm done.  What were you doing anyway?

Student:  I was practicing Prokofiev's piano concerto after I finished my grade 8 exam because I thought that it wouldn't be too hard because it's ranked as grade 8.

Doctor:  WHAT?!??  Are you freaking crazy?!  Of course this would happen to you! . Well, I have good news and bad news: we can fix all of your illnesses...  But I can't fix your fingers that are broken in 36 different places, or any piano playing related injury or disease so you can't play the piano anymore.

Student: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  I feel soo salty!!!!!  Is this what Scriabin felt like after he damaged his hand?  Or is this what Rachmaninoff felt when Tchaikovsky died?  Why me?!?!?!?!?

Teacher:  yes!!!  I don't have to teach this idiot anymore!!!  Whoho!!!    



So in essence, I think this grading scale is stupid.  Everything is rated an 8+!  Are you kidding me?!  How am I supposed to tell what's the difference between La Campanella and Rachmaninoff's third?!  They should make a more sensitive scale!  Like from 1-15?  What do you guys have to say about this?!  

[j_menz]

Firstly, cut down on the coffee.

Secondly, Prokofiev cannot cause chlamidia.

Thirdly:

The grades up to and including grade 8 basically lay out the fundamentals of piano playing. There may be differences between various schemes, but basically within them, there's a set skill set associated with each That said, if you could play one grade 3 piece, you would not expect to have greatly more trouble (remembering how hard it was to learn) learning another grade 3 piece. That probably becomes slightly less true as one moves up the grades, but is still generally true.

After grade 8, pieces tend to have their own complications that don't fit into any such scheme.  Once you have made grade 8, most people will find that there are some aspects of technique that they do more easily than others, and so some of the more advanced repertoire is already fairly accessible to them; they also have things that they rather struggled to do to grade 8 standard, so more advanced pieces that build on that technique are things they will find really difficult.  There is not, therefore, any point in breaking the grading for these pieces down further as it would be a different scale for each person individually.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Firstly, cut down on the coffee.

Secondly, Prokofiev cannot cause chlamidia.

Thirdly:

The grades up to and including grade 8 basically lay out the fundamentals of piano playing. There may be differences between various schemes, but basically within them, there's a set skill set associated with each That said, if you could play one grade 3 piece, you would not expect to have greatly more trouble (remembering how hard it was to learn) learning another grade 3 piece. That probably becomes slightly less true as one moves up the grades, but is still generally true.

After grade 8, pieces tend to have their own complications that don't fit into any such scheme.  Once you have made grade 8, most people will find that there are some aspects of technique that they do more easily than others, and so some of the more advanced repertoire is already fairly accessible to them; they also have things that they rather struggled to do to grade 8 standard, so more advanced pieces that build on that technique are things they will find really difficult.  There is not, therefore, any point in breaking the grading for these pieces down further as it would be a different scale for each person individually.

Well, I'm not actually super hyped out right now.  I'm kinda tired, but can't sleep.  I guess that was kind of a long post though.

I think I get what you're saying about how some people can tackle more difficult repertoire but at the same time can't tackle standard grade 8.  Some people may find Chopin's etude op 10. No. 2 easier than Chopin's third etude, but there is no way that someone could say that Chopn's revolutionary etude is harder than Prokofiev's second.  What if I wanna  try comparing two works that I'm not familiar with?  Like for instance, Petrouchka and Rachmaninoffs six moment musicals? I tried looking them up and they were both given the same grade.  Clearly Petrouchka is harder, but they're given the same grade so I couldn't tell.  One might argue that Gaspard de la Nuit is roughly on the same level as Petrouchka, but Gaspard and and Petrouchka are a completely different level from the six moment musicals.  So if someone wasn't too familiar with either of those works, then how would he decide which is harder?  Or even Brahms variations on a theme by Paganini!  I still don't know how difficult that is relative to other pieces because everything is rated 8+.  I guess 1-100 is WAAY too difficult to do, but I think that 1-15 or something around there should fit within everyone's abilities.

[j_menz]

Well, I'm not actually super hyped out right now.  I'm kinda tired, but can't sleep. 

I'll write as slowly, soothingly and as boringly as possible to help. 

The easiest way is to have a look at them, or a listen, or a play through. I personally haven't played much Prokofiev at all (on my list of things to do), so he is instantly more difficult than someone I'm familiar with, simply because I have to learn a whole new way of thinking (to some extent).  That makes it difficult to have a realistic list. Sure, Scarbo is almost certainly harder for everyone than Chopin 10/3, but by how much? Therein lies the problem.

And, ultimately, once you are truly advanced ebough, all the problems will be musical ones. I don't mean playing a piece musically in the straightforward sense, but of resovling real and contradictory musical issues. Go back and play something from Grade 3 and see how much more musically difficult you think it is now to when you were at that standard.

How do you propose factoring that in?

And what about Bach? What will you do with him?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

And, ultimately, once you are truly advanced ebough, all the problems will be musical ones. I don't mean playing a piece musically in the straightforward sense, but of resovling real and contradictory musical issues. Go back and play something from Grade 3 and see how much more musically difficult you think it is now to when you were at that standard.

How do you propose factoring that in?

And what about Bach? What will you do with him?

Okay, I hear this aaaaallll the time, but I don't get it!  Does your technical skill become so good that you don't know the difference between forte and piano?  You don't know the difference between a nice rounded sounding note between a sharp, brittle one?  Do you forget how to use the pedal?  "I'm so good that I forgot how to play staccato" what the heck lol?

But aren't almost all super difficult technical pieces also difficult to execute musically anyway?  For instance Gaspard, Rach 3, Rach sonatas 1-2, Chopin sonatas, Hammerklavier, Scriabin sonatas?

Well sure playing a composer that you haven't looked at before is harder, but does it really affect you that much?  I think I remember my teacher saying that he can't play Ravel because all of his works are too hard.  You're joking right?! 

Please don't bring up Bach.  I get enough of him every day... *groan*

[ajspiano]

I don't think much of the grading system - i mean it works well enough but I feel it's vastly better to consider EVERYTHING on a personal level.

I was taught a set of 5 or so pieces from each subsequent grade by my "classical teacher" and did exams up to AMEB grade 6. I probably would've been telling my friends at any given time that I was grade whatever whilst growing up.

Here's the thing though, after grade six I charged into advanced rep without difficulty and proceeded to teach myself jazz/improv on the side. Now, years on and with teaching experience I wouldn't consider myself to have truly mastered what can be found both technically and musically (but especially musically) as low as grade 3/4. Meanwhile ive been studying without great difficultly chop 10/1 which is a licentiate level piece here in Australia. I mean really, I've never properly studied Bach beyond Anna Magdalena but I can play Chopin studies --- what grade am I? As if my playing wouldn't take leaps and bounds if I rip through 15 sinfonia's and as if I wouldn't face challenges learning those works thoroughly even if I would probably get their much faster than someone who just took a grade 5 or 6 exam.

[j_menz]

Okay, I hear this aaaaallll the time, but I don't get it!  Does your technical skill become so good that you don't know the difference between forte and piano?  You don't know the difference between a nice rounded sounding note between a sharp, brittle one?  Do you forget how to use the pedal?  "I'm so good that I forgot how to play staccato" what the heck lol?

No, you forget none of that, but there is more to musicality than those things - they are merely tools in one's aresenal.. Try the grade 3 piece as I suggested, and you may have a better idea of where I'm going with this.

But aren't almost all super difficult technical pieces also difficult to execute musically anyway?  For instance Gaspard, Rach 3, Rach sonatas 1-2, Chopin sonatas, Hammerklavier, Scriabin sonatas?

Undoubtedly. But even more musically difficult than they are technically, and in different ways.

Well sure playing a composer that you haven't looked at before is harder, but does it really affect you that much?  I think I remember my teacher saying that he can't play Ravel because all of his works are too hard.  You're joking right?! 

It affects me enormously. Until I have started to get into their head (and some are easier to get into than others) I really don't know what I am supposed to be doing with a piece.  It takes some fumbling round, and sometimes a great deal of fumbling around, to begin to unravel them and make a start on playing their music (not just their notes). Frankly, if you were in a position where Ravel just made no sense to you, then all his works would be too hard. As those of Bach are for you at present (and I'm guessing that is for just that reason, too).

Please don't bring up Bach.  I get enough of him every day... *groan*

Haha, clearly not.    (and sorry for the earlier reference. not.)

[nanabush]

The issue with musical difficulties... how do you make a beat like Prokofiev's 2nd Concerto sounds like an epic, beautiful and captivating piece without bashing away.

If you have mastered all of the OBVIOUS difficulties, you can then start the piece!

If you think finishing the piece means you can play all the notes at tempo, then you will really notice when you get up in front of an audience to perform it.

Martha Argerich or Yuja Wang playing Prok's 3rd piano concerto... demonic. 

[dantesonata]

Okay, so I posted this some time ago, but I didn't get the discussion I wanted, so...  Yeah.


Student:  omg omg omg omg omg omg guess what happened!!!

Teacher:  *sigh* what now...

Student:  okay, so I just passed my grade 8 exam!!!  So that means that I can play anything in grade 8!!!  Which means that if it's in grade 8, then I can play it!  So in conclusion, I don't have to worry about whether or not something is playable for me.  Which leads to my other statement that if I'm playing something and I don't know what grade it's in, then it doesn't matter.  Which brings me to my next point that if I'm playing something in grade 8, then I don't have anything to worry about!  All of this is because I just passed my grade 8 exam!  If I failed, then I wouldn't be able to play anything in grade 8 because I wouldn't be good enough!  So in essence, due to the fact that I pas-

Teacher:  okay okay shut up!!!  

Student:  isn't that awesome?

Teacher:  cool story bro, say it again...

Student:  okay, so I just passed my grade 8 exam!!!  So that means that I can play anyth-

Teacher:  shut up!!!  If you say another thing about this grade 8 exam again, I'm gonna wring your neck!  Now hurry up and play this Rachmaninoff for me.  

*playing some Rachmaninoff prelude*

Teacher:  wow, you play this pretty well

Student:  that's because I passed my grade 8 exam!  If I didn't then I wouldn-

Teacher:  GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*later on that week, while looking for some new grade 8 pieces to play*

Student:  wow I can't believe I passed grade 8!  Hmmm I wonder what to play though, Prokofiev's second piano concerto, or Chopin's revolutionary etude?  They're both grade 8, so neither of them should be a problem for me!  I'll try Prokofiev's second piano concerto!  

*next piano lesson*

Student:  I'm going to learn this

*shows teacher the score for Prokofiev's second*

Teacher:  you're joking... Right?

student:  no, I'm serious!  I COULDN'T TELL WHICH ONE WAS HARDER BETWEEN REVOLUTIONRY ETUDE OR PROKOFIEV'S SECOND PIANO CONCERTO BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH GRADE 8, SO I'LL JUST DIVE IN TO PROKOFIEV'S SECOND.

Teacher: *there's no way he's gonna try this.  Does he think he's cool or something?*:  knock yourself out kid...  Idiot...

Student: what?

Teacher:  Oh, it's nothing...  Just nothing...

*some considerable amount of time later in the hospital*

Doctor:  well, it seems like you've shattered all of your fingers in 36 or more different places, fractured your skull, ripped out your tongue, broke all of your teeth, broke your nose, broke your face, broke both of your forearms in 29 places, dislocated your left wrist, Burnt your right wrist to the third degree, dislocated your hip into your spinal chord, blew up your right foot, broke three ribs so that they're now puncturing your heart, *deeeeeeep breath* AND you've somehow managed to contract every sexually transmitted disease known to man, the Ebola virus, bird flu, swine flu, osteomyelitis, osteoporosis, carpal tunnel, arthritis, elephantiasis in the hands, AND, aaaah forget it, I'm done.  What were you doing anyway?

Student:  I was practicing Prokofiev's piano concerto after I finished my grade 8 exam because I thought that it wouldn't be too hard because it's ranked as grade 8.

Doctor:  WHAT?!??  Are you freaking crazy?!  Of course this would happen to you! . Well, I have good news and bad news: we can fix all of your illnesses...  But I can't fix your fingers that are broken in 36 different places, or any piano playing related injury or disease so you can't play the piano anymore.

Student: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  I feel soo salty!!!!!  Is this what Scriabin felt like after he damaged his hand?  Or is this what Rachmaninoff felt when Tchaikovsky died?  Why me?!?!?!?!?

Teacher:  yes!!!  I don't have to teach this idiot anymore!!!  Whoho!!!    



So in essence, I think this grading scale is stupid.  Everything is rated an 8+!  Are you kidding me?!  How am I supposed to tell what's the difference between La Campanella and Rachmaninoff's third?!  They should make a more sensitive scale!  Like from 1-15?  What do you guys have to say about this?!  

Have you heard of Henle's ratings? They offer a more precise measure of difficulty for the advanced literature.

https://www.henle.de/us/detail/index.html?Title=Etudes_124

[49410enrique]

or we could just say to hell with it all and just do what most folks prolly did before all these organizations came up with their flavor of grading etc. that is just pick up the music and start working through it. if it is itoo difficult it will become readily apparent. and you can simply shelve it temporarily after giving it the 'good ol college go!'. if it's 'too easy' then you can simply aim for a very very high musical and quality standard, that its make it harder by playing it better right?

i mean i've never been a 'worse pianist' after spending sometime on new music, or difficult music, etc. we can and should try to learn and improve every time we get into something new right?

[elenka]

Excuse me how did you manage to get so freaking injuries in your hands, I mean got multiple fractures only by playing a piece that maybe could be too much difficult by now? This is freaking impossible unless you pressed them with the cover of the piano without you realizing it...
Play difficult things can cause injuries such thendonites but get fractures that's pretty impossible...

[sphince]

To protect any pianist who attempts prokofievs 2nd piano concerto I mailed all major music publishers pursuing them to add the appropriate sign to these books