At what point do you start to play Liszt, Raavel, Debussy, etc.?

[japanesepianist]

     Hello, this is my first post on this forum, and I am still getting the hang of this..

      I am at a relatively advanced level, and am looking into playing composers such as Liszt, Ravel, and Debussy, and such.  I have heard many people telling others to start Liszt with the Etude Excerises, and Ravel with his Prelude, and Debussy with Suite Bergamasque. However, that doesn't exactly apply to me, since everyone has their own needs. Last time I asked my teacher if I could play LIszt, she said that Liszt was very hard, and when I asked her about Ravel, she said it was too hard for me. Recently, when I asked her if I could play Debussy, she said that he wasn't a good composer for me. My past repertoire was: Fantaise Impromptu, WTC I Prelude and Fugue 5 by Bach, Poem Op. 32 No. 2 by Scriabin, Nocturne 72 No. 1 by Chopin, Sonata 8 by Mozart, Inventions 8, 11, and 13 by Bach. Can you give me some pointers on where to start with these composers? Thank you in advance, and have a wonderful evening!

[brianvds]

Those guys were dumb enough not to compose anything at grade 4 level, thus they'll never have the honour of me performing any of their work. :-)

As far as I know, some of Debussy's preludes are fairly playable? Notably "The girl with the flaxen hair"? Not sure about the other two.

[zezhyrule]

If you like Debussy, I don't see how he's "not a good composer for you" or whatever. Many of his solo piano works can be manageable, especially seeing your repertoire.

Your teacher says that "Liszt is very hard", but she didn't say (from what you've written) that you couldn't attempt any, eh? Find a piece by him you like, and take it to your teacher.
I actually surprised my teacher by telling her I wanted to learn a Liszt HR... She's hardly taught any Liszt to any of her other/past students. But she never turned it down or away. She did say that it wouldn't be easy but I wasn't expecting it to be.

Ravel on the other hand... I have no idea, I've never played any and am not familiar with much more than Gaspard de la nuit, haha.

[sleepapnea]

There's no point in starting with one of Liszt's easier pieces if your goal is to work up to his harder pieces. For example, learning one of the easy Consolations won't prepare you any better for one of the Transcendental Etudes than any number of other pieces of similar difficulty by other composers.

If you can play the Fantasie-Impromptu then there is no reason you cannot start playing Liszt.

Here is a tip. Start with Chopin Op. 25 no. 12 and work on Liszt Un Sospiro at the same time. It is not as intimidating as it seems.

As for Debussy, Children's corner seems to be a good introduction to his work, or the 2 Arabesques - neither of which incredibly difficult.

[drkilroy]

I am not an expert when it comes to Liszt, but as for Ravel: the prelude is quite easy technically. There is some finger/hand crossing in it, I think, but nothing really hard. Musical aspect is more difficult to get right, however. There are also some less hard works, but a bit more demanding than Prelude, like Menuet sur le nom d'Haydn, A la maniere de Chabrier, A la maniere de Borodine or pieces from Le Tombeau de Couperin: Menuet, Forlane and Fugue.

As for Debussy, selection of Preludes would be good for start.

Best regards, Dr

[japanesepianist]

Those guys were dumb enough not to compose anything at grade 4 level, thus they'll never have the honour of me performing any of their work. :-)

As far as I know, some of Debussy's preludes are fairly playable? Notably "The girl with the flaxen hair"? Not sure about the other two.

     I have the first book of Preludes, and some look playable, but most look difficult..

[japanesepianist]

If you like Debussy, I don't see how he's "not a good composer for you" or whatever. Many of his solo piano works can be manageable, especially seeing your repertoire.

Your teacher says that "Liszt is very hard", but she didn't say (from what you've written) that you couldn't attempt any, eh? Find a piece by him you like, and take it to your teacher.
I actually surprised my teacher by telling her I wanted to learn a Liszt HR... She's hardly taught any Liszt to any of her other/past students. But she never turned it down or away. She did say that it wouldn't be easy but I wasn't expecting it to be.

Ravel on the other hand... I have no idea, I've never played any and am not familiar with much more than Gaspard de la nuit, haha.

     I do love Debussy's works, and especially love Suite Bergamasque. And she never said that I coulnd't attempt Liszt, so I guess I could give it a shot. I am currently working on a piece by Sibelius, Romance Op. 24 No. 9, which is far different from any other piece I have played before, which is good, because it stretches my interpretation skills.

[p2u_]

Last time I asked my teacher if I could play LIszt, she said that Liszt was very hard

I'd rather start with Liszt than with Debussy or Ravel.

At first sight, Liszt sounds and looks often harder than it really is. The only really big problem you have there is that it's rather motoric (it often requires the utmost in human capacity for movement) but that is not a good reason not to try his music. Play it half tempo and the speed will grow later. As soon as you start analyzing, you will always recognize the hand of a great pianist - simplicity in something that looks very complicated at first sight. I would suggest you start with his consolations (2 & 3) and then the Liebestraum no. 3. See how it goes. Don't listen too much to advice from others. The technical exercises are good, of course, but they are not Liszt's music. It's more a library of formulas that may come in handy anywhere.

Paul

[j_menz]

I'd start with the Liszt Consolations, maybe one or two of the Liebestraume. For Debussy, try the Deux Arabesques. There is some relatively easy Ravel, but names don't come to mind immediately.

These should all be within your grasp, though you may find the Debussy and Ravel a bit strange at first.

[dee101]

I would recommend from my own experience that the Ravel prelude (1913) and Debussy le petit negre are good pieces for a taster of those composers. I have learnt them as part of grade examinations. Ravel, yes there's hand crossing in a section but like any other piece once you keep practising it, it'll soon become second nature. the glissando in it is what gets me, but that's just me.

Le petit negre, loved it because it wasn't so serious sounding. It had it's difficulties too, hand crossing but like I said above, keep practising and it becomes second nature. That's all I know so far of both composers and I haven't tried any Liszt.

Bit of advice, learn what you want to learn. My teacher allows me to pick my grade pieces from the  syllabus and advises on other pieces that might suit me.

[japanesepianist]

I would recommend from my own experience that the Ravel prelude (1913) and Debussy le petit negre are good pieces for a taster of those composers. I have learnt them as part of grade examinations. Ravel, yes there's hand crossing in a section but like any other piece once you keep practising it, it'll soon become second nature. the glissando in it is what gets me, but that's just me.

Le petit negre, loved it because it wasn't so serious sounding. It had it's difficulties too, hand crossing but like I said above, keep practising and it becomes second nature. That's all I know so far of both composers and I haven't tried any Liszt.

Bit of advice, learn what you want to learn. My teacher allows me to pick my grade pieces from the  syllabus and advises on other pieces that might suit me.

     I actually have already played Le Petit Negre, a long long time ago..

[drkilroy]

There is no glissando in Ravel's Prelude, I think. There is one in Debussy's Menuet from Suite Bergamasque, perhaps you confused them.

Best regards, Dr

[dee101]

There is no glissando in Ravel's Prelude, I think. There is one in Debussy's Menuet from Suite Bergamasque, perhaps you confused them.

Best regards, Dr

No offence intended but while it's a short piece I've been playing it a while and there is a glissando that repeats itself.

@ 0.44!

And I am not familiar with the actual sheet music of Debussy Suite Bergamasque so I cannot argue whether there are or aren't

[drkilroy]

This is not a glissando. Glissando is sliding your finger on the keys. See 3:49 on this video with Debussy's Menuet from Suite Bergamasque:

The thing in the Ravel's Prelude is an arpeggiated chord.

Best regards, Dr

[dee101]

Right, well the arpeggiated chord symbol, I have since looked it up after reading your comment, was taught to me as a glissando many moons ago. I'll take the correction but there is no need to be smug about it, which is how I read you last comment.

[drkilroy]

Sorry, I did not want it to sound that way. But using incorrect terminology (I see it is not your fault) can be confusing sometimes, so I just wanted to help.

Best regards, Dr

[gearmenta]

I that your teacher meant is maybe Debussy doesn't match your personality, it's something I take intaccount as a teacher. To me, the most important thing is making an artist out of someone, teaching them to feel their art, and teach them technical skill as well, which they've probably learned to an above decent level before coming to me. I do let my students pick their own pieces but I do advise them on what matches their personality. Debussy I recommend to my elegant and soft spoken students, where as I recommend ravel or rachmaninoff to my more intense students. They all play what they want, but when they play the pieces I recommend, I believe I see their personality shine through when they play.

[japanesepianist]

I that your teacher meant is maybe Debussy doesn't match your personality, it's something I take intaccount as a teacher. To me, the most important thing is making an artist out of someone, teaching them to feel their art, and teach them technical skill as well, which they've probably learned to an above decent level before coming to me. I do let my students pick their own pieces but I do advise them on what matches their personality. Debussy I recommend to my elegant and soft spoken students, where as I recommend ravel or rachmaninoff to my more intense students. They all play what they want, but when they play the pieces I recommend, I believe I see their personality shine through when they play.

Wow! You have a point there!  I play a lot of Chopin, and I love him. What kind of students do you reccomend him to?

[gearmenta]

If you truly love this music and think you can exemplify it I would start with passepied, from suite bergamesque. It's beautiful, and also hit the absolute classic like Claire de Lune. Much of ravels music is inaccessible to all but the most advanced pianist. Ravel has an innate perfectionist quality. So i don't recommend starting them together because debussy, though he hated the term, was an impressionist. He blended sound into a whir of color and feeling. No lines anywhere. Ravel is complete opposite, being basque and having Spanish influence rhythm is what makes his music unique. Even in his most "Impressionistic" sounding music, the Spanish rhythms prevail. So start with something more on the easier side of the repertoire, the sunken cathedral is great, by Debussy. Tackle Debussy first, then Liszt, with maybe something like O, Lieb from his Lieberstraum. Then to make the graduation of technique, I would go to perhaps.... The Hungarian rhapsodies? There seems to be a huge gap of the technique required between liszts easier music and his harder music. After you're very sure of your technique through practicing lisZt I would go to either jeux d'eau,MAYBE, it's very difficult or to his le tombeau de couperin.

[gearmenta]

I teach Chopin to students who i see as graceful, and have a singing quality much like Chopin did.

[japanesepianist]

If you truly love this music and think you can exemplify it I would start with passepied, from suite bergamesque. It's beautiful, and also hit the absolute classic like Claire de Lune. Much of ravels music is inaccessible to all but the most advanced pianist. Ravel has an innate perfectionist quality. So i don't recommend starting them together because debussy, though he hated the term, was an impressionist. He blended sound into a whir of color and feeling. No lines anywhere. Ravel is complete opposite, being basque and having Spanish influence rhythm is what makes his music unique. Even in his most "Impressionistic" sounding music, the Spanish rhythms prevail. So start with something more on the easier side of the repertoire, the sunken cathedral is great, by Debussy. Tackle Debussy first, then Liszt, with maybe something like O, Lieb from his Lieberstraum. Then to make the graduation of technique, I would go to perhaps.... The Hungarian rhapsodies? There seems to be a huge gap of the technique required between liszts easier music and his harder music. After you're very sure of your technique through practicing lisZt I would go to either jeux d'eau,MAYBE, it's very difficult or to his le tombeau de couperin.

     I don't just love the compositions from only these composers, I love the compositions from all composers. There is always a shining quality in all pieces. I was thinking of starting Debussy from Suite Bergamasque, and playing the movements of it in order. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[gearmenta]

That's definitely a good starting point. Claire de lune is not trick technically, but the coloring is a difficult aspect, I'd start with preludes actually, which contradicts my first post, get to know how to provide the color and pretty much how to give your own touch to Debussy. You haven't found your true calling, there are certain pieces that will speak to you... Though your calling is music, and I can tell, you must find the kind that speaks to you loudest. For me when I played rachs second piano concerto, that's when I really fell in love. Maybe for you it will be suite bergamesque, or if you really wanna take it to the top gaspard de la nuit. You're gonna go far, I can tell:)

[japanesepianist]

That's definitely a good starting point. Claire de lune is not trick technically, but the coloring is a difficult aspect, I'd start with preludes actually, which contradicts my first post, get to know how to provide the color and pretty much how to give your own touch to Debussy. You haven't found your true calling, there are certain pieces that will speak to you... Though your calling is music, and I can tell, you must find the kind that speaks to you loudest. For me when I played rachs second piano concerto, that's when I really fell in love. Maybe for you it will be suite bergamesque, or if you really wanna take it to the top gaspard de la nuit. You're gonna go far, I can tell:)

Thanks! Should I start with the Suite Bergamasque Prelude or something from, say, the first or second book of Preludes? And which piece from Debussy spoke to you the most?

[gearmenta]

For me... It was gardens in the rain. I love pieces that describe water, such as ondine and jeux d'eau. I think you should start with the preludes, they're very easy, of you've done the gradus ad parnassum exercises Debussy has a piece in the children's corner modeled after it.