Appassionata 3rd movement problem

[nick]

I wonder if someone has insight that might help me on the part in the left hand, octave c alternating with f/ab. This is my only problem spot with speed. I can take the rest of the movement at 132-138 before the presto. My current thinking is I need to keep fingers on the keys, slightly curved,  and feel the transference of weight back and forth. Prior to this I had straighter fingers and would raise them. I could get up to not a bad speed, but just not near the requirement. When I switched to the current method, my speed had to go way down, 69. Couple of days practice and now at 80. Hoping it will continue. Any ideas I would appreciate. thanks.

Nick

[andhow04]

this probably won't be any help to you, but a few years ago i was watching daniel barenboim lead masterclasses on all the beethoven sonatas to students at carnegie hall. my friend was playing this sonata. after he finished this movement, barenboim said about this very passage, "I saw you were faking those damned tremolos in the left hand.  Well, I've been faking those for 40 years."

[nick]

  Didn't know an octave alternating with a minor third was also called a tremelo. I doubt Barenboim faked them though. You're right, that didn't help but funny.
I just looked a a video of Rubinstein playing it and sure enough, he did fake it. The second time it occurs the camera gives a good pic of it. He hits the first octave, then just alternates thumb with minor third. What the... I would not have thought someone like this would do that.
Then Lang Lang. The left hand I think he did what Rubinstein did.

Nick

update:Andhow, your the greastest! It did help. I am now a faker also. Tried it out and it sounds great, you don't miss the octave note and boy is it easier. I didn't know cheating was permitted.

Nick

[nanabush]

I'm just starting this piece... any of you find the first movement more difficult?  The sudden bursts in it are so damn tough.

Anyways; for this in the third movement, I was just doing mad rhythmic practice.  Harshly dotted rhythms both ways.  Also I was just taking a C major scale in octaves with this pattern, and going up and down the scale.  Staccato, slow, fast, rhythmic additions.  I'm still not sure if this has 100% helped me (I have a month before I start working on this with my teacher), but it's made m hand more at ease.  m140 is bad for me though.

Either way, it's nice to see there are others playing it on the forum!  Maybe... I'll post a recording in the audition room long as I can get a decent quality for it...

[andhow04]

Didn't know an octave alternating with a minor third was also called a tremelo. I doubt Barenboim faked them though. You're right, that didn't help but funny.
I just looked a a video of Rubinstein playing it and sure enough, he did fake it. The second time it occurs the camera gives a good pic of it. He hits the first octave, then just alternates thumb with minor third. What the... I would not have thought someone like this would do that.
Then Lang Lang. The left hand I think he did what Rubinstein did.

Nick

update:Andhow, your the greastest! It did help. I am now a faker also. Tried it out and it sounds great, you don't miss the octave note and boy is it easier. I didn't know cheating was permitted.

Nick

We should never be score fundamentalists but alwyas find a way that works and sounds convincing

[semplice]

I play it without faking the tremolo. The Jumps between them is in my opinion more difficult than the tremolo.
I keep the wrist as high as possible. that helped to keep the little finger under control and avoid any wrist movement on the octave.

you have to avoid any weigth in this tremolo. to play it in dotted style migth be bad to avoid the weigth.
Helpfull was for me to "fake" during practicing: play only the lower c's (little finger) of the tremolos.
adding the thumb isn't a big problem   

Beethoven knowed what he wrote (for the keyboards of his time)
Beethoven has written very much different accompainments in the left. Perhaps is the reason of this  difficult tremolo to force the player to play "Allegro non troppo" you can find the "faked" or easier version without the octave in the last movement of op2/3. this movement is much faster.

I played it in 140 bpm but I realized, that the character of the piece will be clearer at 132bpm.
it is often heard, that the sf in bar 29 is not played properly, because in a fast tempo it isn't possible to play properly sf only of one sinle note. most performers play both notes in the same way.   

the presto coda has to be very fast (more than 160). It has to be played in another physical condition.
this shock effect will be minimized if the Allegro is too fast. Despair changes to insanity at the beginning of the presto (the second repeated part is the ultimate attempt to get rid of this horrible f minor - after this, nothing than f minor is possible).
There are many fine recordings with almost no or to little difference between the Allegro and the presto.
They reached a grand ending with increasing speed but not with changing the character.

[nick]

I play it without faking the tremolo. The Jumps between them is in my opinion more difficult than the tremolo.
I keep the wrist as high as possible. that helped to keep the little finger under control and avoid any wrist movement on the octave.

you have to avoid any weigth in this tremolo. to play it in dotted style migth be bad to avoid the weigth.
Helpfull was for me to "fake" during practicing: play only the lower c's (little finger) of the tremolos.
adding the thumb isn't a big problem

If I wanted to play without the fake now, I would try that. I don't find the added note needed to express the music better, and the extra work and time is not worth it to me.Thanks.

  

I played it in 140 bpm but I realized, that the character of the piece will be clearer at 132bpm.
it is often heard, that the sf in bar 29 is not played properly, because in a fast tempo it isn't possible to play properly sf only of one sinle note. most performers play both notes in the same way.  

I think 132 sounds great as well. I will check out bar 29 later.


 

the presto coda has to be very fast (more than 160). It has to be played in another physical condition.
this shock effect will be minimized if the Allegro is too fast. Despair changes to insanity at the beginning of the presto (the second repeated part is the ultimate attempt to get rid of this horrible f minor - after this, nothing than f minor is possible).
There are many fine recordings with almost no or to little difference between the Allegro and the presto.
They reached a grand ending with increasing speed but not with changing the character.

I agree and am aware of needing the big contrast.

Nick