When to start Debussy, Ravel, Liszt, etc.

[japanesepianist]

I am at a relatively advanced level, and am looking into playing composers such as Liszt, Ravel, and Debussy, and such.  I have heard many people telling others to start Liszt with the Etude Excerises, and Ravel with his Prelude, and Debussy with Suite Bergamasque. However, that doesn't exactly apply to me, since everyone has their own needs. Last time I asked my teacher if I could play LIszt, she said that Liszt was very hard, and when I asked her about Ravel, she said it was too hard for me. Recently, when I asked her if I could play Debussy, she said that he wasn't a good composer for me. My past repertoire was: Fantaise Impromptu, WTC I Prelude and Fugue 5 by Bach, Poem Op. 32 No. 2 by Scriabin, Nocturne 72 No. 1 by Chopin, Sonata 8 by Mozart, Inventions 8, 11, and 13 by Bach. Can you give me some pointers on where to start with these composers? Thank you in advance, and have a wonderful evening!

[philb]

Recently, when I asked her if I could play Debussy, she said that he wasn't a good composer for me.

That's rather vague. Do you know what she meant by that?

[zezhyrule]

Umm...?

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=46819.msg509452

[japanesepianist]

That's rather vague. Do you know what she meant by that?

 We were talking about what I could use as new repertoire, I said, " What about Debussy? Can I play something from him?" and she replied with, " Uhhh, no, I don't think he would be a good composer for you." And that was the end of that discussion.

[zezhyrule]

You should've said "why not?" maybe? 

[nanabush]

Have you heard a lot of their Repertoire?  There is a TON of Debussy that is much much much easier than the Fantasie Impromptu.  I would say most of his Preludes don't have a severe technical difficulty (there are the obvious ones that have some tough spots).

For Liszt, probably one of the better entries to his rep is probably the Liebestraum (famous one).  It's the first piece by Liszt I played, and I got introduced to his Cadenza writing, his harmonic language (progressions especially; and remote keys!), and the legendary octaves you see in nearly all of his pieces... I used to think this is easier than Fantasie Impromptu, but it does have some tough spots on its own (the climactic middle spots).

Ravel... he has more difficult rep than Debussy, and less easier rep to be honest.  I hadn't played any Ravel until I had played some Debussy and a bit of Liszt (I started with the Sonatine, and then played Alborada).  There are some pieces by him that are a bit easier (Pavane pour une Infante Defunte - which is still tough!  Don't underestimate it, it becomes dense and it is very tricky placing all of the voices and harmonies without spamming the pedal)

I would suggest these by Debussy:

-Suite Bergamasque (The prelude and menuet are my favorites by far, but the entire suite kicks ass)
-These Preludes: "Minstrels", "la Cathedrale Engloutie", "le Vent dans la Plaine", "Ondine", "Feuilles Mortes"
-The "Sarabande" from the 'suite pour le piano'
-Masques (one of the most interesting pieces I've ever heard, because the initial motif is just way too catchy for its own good)

--------------------

The 'Bigger' pieces come with time, just like the 'bigger' pieces by any other composer... I'm sure there are some Mozart pieces, or Beethoven, or Bach that you probably look at now and say "no way", or your teacher would say "no way"...whatever you do, make sure not to put certain composers on this unreachable level and avoid them.  Debussy, Ravel and Liszt each have accessible pieces, although they do have well-known pieces that ARE very tough...

Before playing Debussy, I 'enjoyed' the piano, and was just playing a few pieces at a time; after getting into it, and seeing what the piano could actually do (other than bug me each year because of RCM exams) really made me develop a new interest.  So he's definitely my favorite composer, and a few years after getting into his stuff, nearly all his pieces have become accessible.
------------------

Liszt - Check out the Liebestraum, or his 3rd Transcendental Etude (not frightening! It's a very beautiful piece with lots of texture and layers).

Ravel - not joking, you could try out Jeux D'eau.  I had tried a bit of this pieces probably a bit too soon, but it got me really looking into different Ravel stuff, and creating a genuine interest in his stuff.  Also check out the "Prelude" from 'le tombeau de couperin', "Oiseaux Tristes" from 'Miroirs', or "Pavane pour une Infante Defunte".

There's tons of good stuff out there!  Have you checked out Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev??

[japanesepianist]

Have you heard a lot of their Repertoire?  There is a TON of Debussy that is much much much easier than the Fantasie Impromptu.  I would say most of his Preludes don't have a severe technical difficulty (there are the obvious ones that have some tough spots).

For Liszt, probably one of the better entries to his rep is probably the Liebestraum (famous one).  It's the first piece by Liszt I played, and I got introduced to his Cadenza writing, his harmonic language (progressions especially; and remote keys!), and the legendary octaves you see in nearly all of his pieces... I used to think this is easier than Fantasie Impromptu, but it does have some tough spots on its own (the climactic middle spots).

Ravel... he has more difficult rep than Debussy, and less easier rep to be honest.  I hadn't played any Ravel until I had played some Debussy and a bit of Liszt (I started with the Sonatine, and then played Alborada).  There are some pieces by him that are a bit easier (Pavane pour une Infante Defunte - which is still tough!  Don't underestimate it, it becomes dense and it is very tricky placing all of the voices and harmonies without spamming the pedal)

I would suggest these by Debussy:

-Suite Bergamasque (The prelude and menuet are my favorites by far, but the entire suite kicks ass)
-These Preludes: "Minstrels", "la Cathedrale Engloutie", "le Vent dans la Plaine", "Ondine", "Feuilles Mortes"
-The "Sarabande" from the 'suite pour le piano'
-Masques (one of the most interesting pieces I've ever heard, because the initial motif is just way too catchy for its own good)

--------------------

The 'Bigger' pieces come with time, just like the 'bigger' pieces by any other composer... I'm sure there are some Mozart pieces, or Beethoven, or Bach that you probably look at now and say "no way", or your teacher would say "no way"...whatever you do, make sure not to put certain composers on this unreachable level and avoid them.  Debussy, Ravel and Liszt each have accessible pieces, although they do have well-known pieces that ARE very tough...

Before playing Debussy, I 'enjoyed' the piano, and was just playing a few pieces at a time; after getting into it, and seeing what the piano could actually do (other than bug me each year because of RCM exams) really made me develop a new interest.  So he's definitely my favorite composer, and a few years after getting into his stuff, nearly all his pieces have become accessible.
------------------

Liszt - Check out the Liebestraum, or his 3rd Transcendental Etude (not frightening! It's a very beautiful piece with lots of texture and layers).

Ravel - not joking, you could try out Jeux D'eau.  I had tried a bit of this pieces probably a bit too soon, but it got me really looking into different Ravel stuff, and creating a genuine interest in his stuff.  Also check out the "Prelude" from 'le tombeau de couperin', "Oiseaux Tristes" from 'Miroirs', or "Pavane pour une Infante Defunte".

There's tons of good stuff out there!  Have you checked out Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev??

     Wow, that's really helpful! I haven't looked into Rachmaninoff or Prokofiev yet... because I recently (a few months ago) awakened my passion for piano. I'll look into these pieces later in the day. And actually, Fantaisie Impromptu, in my opinion, was a pretty easy piece. For Debussy, I think I will tackle Suite Bergamasque first. But, for the Ravel, I am unsure about trying first the Sonatine or Jeux D'eau. i always thought I should do Jeux d'eau first, but then I heard Sonatine, and thought it may be better to start with that first. I don't know. Jeux d'eau seems pretty hard.. ..Which one should I do first?

[stoudemirestat]

For Liszt, I would try something from the Annees de Pelerinage - lots of easier stuff there. How about this piece?

And, as a previous poster said, the third Liebestraum would be a good choice too, and a great introduction to Liszt's compositional language.

Probably the best introduction to Liszt's musical language, actually, is the piece below. This one might be too difficult though.

[amelialw]

For Liszt don't start off with his Trancendenta Etude no.3; someone above suggested it. It's looks are decievingand it's alot harder than expected, requires much fluidity, finger legato etc. musicaly is very challenging... am re-working it at this point.

Do take a look at his Annees de pelerinage book 1: swiss i think...

"Last time I asked my teacher if I could play LIszt, she said that Liszt was very hard, and when I asked her about Ravel, she said it was too hard for me. Recently, when I asked her if I could play Debussy, she said that he wasn't a good composer for me."
When your teacher replies in this way it makes me question how good a teacher she is and what her capabilities as a teacher are...her response is pretty much invalid too; she should explain why you shouldn't anything from Liszt,Ravel,Debussy, not just brush it off the way she does or at least something like: 'I dont think you're ready to play anything by ............... but take a look at .........." and browse through a few pieces with you etc.

[symphonicdance]

If you are going to explore these composers, as alternative, why not go to major exam boards to check out the repertoire list/syllabus (diploma level).  Here, I just pick ABRSM, more popular for piano students in this part of Asia.

https://www.abrsm.org/zh/exams/diplomas/dips2005Performance.html

You can take a look at the pieces of Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, etc. in the Piano DipABRSM section, then go to websites with free scores available, watch youtube / borrow CDs from public libriaries. 

Do some researching yourself is good, given you are at a relatively advanced level.

[fftransform]

I would say most of [Debussy's] Preludes [are a ton easier than Fantasie Impromptu].

So what you're saying is that you're blind and deaf?  After that, I didn't read the rest of your post, not even for comedic value, but I did notice this:

I would suggest these by Debussy:

-Suite Bergamasque
Prelude: "Ondine"
-Masques

Lol, Ondine.  You might as well suggest Feux d'Artifice and Ce qu'a vu le Vent d'Ouest while you're at it.  That is a true virtuoso work and requires extremely delicate touch.


At the original poster: your piano teacher will know infinitely better than us what type of repertoire you are ready for, and what type of repertoire your playing style, assuming you even have one yet, is suited to.  Debussy is definitely not for everyone.  With some finger techniques it is nearly impossible to make it sound like anything other than garbage, irrespective of "technique."  And do not listen to anybody who tells you that Ondine or Masques is comparable to Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu:

[nanabush]

Ondine... what about it?  I'm hoping you aren't thinking of Ondine by Ravel.  I understand the aspect about touch, but this piece isn't high energy throughout.  I've found that most of Debussy's Preludes have many points of rest (I did also specify there were a handful that are pretty insane).  It doesn't seem CRAZY to say that about 2/3 of them are more manageable than FI.

The issue that gets people with Debussy is his writing style.  Of course if you haven't played anything by him, if you look at Feuilles Mortes, you'll be wondering how the hell you are supposed to play it.  The same thing can be said about FI if you've never played a fast Chopin piece before.

For his trickier Preludes, I'd say "Collines d'Anacapri", "Feux d'Artifices", "Ce qu'a vu le Vent d'Ouest", "Tierces Alternees", "Ondine", "Les Fees sont d'exquises danseuses", and possibly "le Vent dans la Plaine" are probably in the 'upper tier'.  There are a lot of them that aren't fast pieces, have some dense harmonies, but are definitely playable.  If you want to get used to later Debussy, a 3-4 page prelude isn't a bad starting point.

About the blind and deaf comment.. what did you mean?  Have you played any of his stuff?  Have you played Ondine and Feux d'Artifice?  I'm offering suggestions; my suggestion is that he has a good number of Preludes that are more accessible than Fantasie Impromptu.

[fftransform]

Ondine... what about it?  I'm hoping you aren't thinking of Ondine by Ravel.

Why would I be thinking about Ravel's from Gaspard and then post a video of Debussy's?

I understand the aspect about touch, but this piece isn't high energy throughout.

Also not high energy: Ondine, from Gaspard de la Nuit, ironically.

I've found that most of Debussy's Preludes have many points of rest (I did also specify there were a handful that are pretty insane).

Also contains many points of rest: Xenakis' Herma, Boulez's Deuxieme Sonate, and Scarbo.

About the blind and deaf comment.. what did you mean?  Have you played any of his stuff?  Have you played Ondine and Feux d'Artifice?  I'm offering suggestions; my suggestion is that he has a good number of Preludes that are more accessible than Fantasie Impromptu.

I've only played all of them.  You've clearly played next to none of them.

[pytheamateur]

Try the Pavane by Ravel.  I don't think it's harder than the Fantasie Impromptu (both on the ATCL syllabus).

[nanabush]

You've 'only' played all of them?  That's neat.

I'm saying from personal experience (I've worked on a bunch of the Debussy, but I'm not going to say flat out that I've 'only' played all of them.. that's such an overarching statement to sound true) that the OP will probably have an easier time with most of the Debussy than with the FI.  Why are you bringing Boulez, Scarbo, etc into the equation?  You might as well also bring up the Liszt Sonata, Rach 3, Prokofiev Toccata, etc, as they ALL have 'rests' in them. 

Ondine (by Ravel) isn't high energy like his Toccata, but it has about as many fast/awkward passages.  It is definitely a high energy piece for technique.  FI is not on the same scale as this, but I think that the 'A' section of the piece is pretty intense for the right hand (assuming you haven't played much stuff like this before).  If you look at 'La Cathedrale Engloutie' by Debussy, I can't also argue that this piece has 'high energy' passagework like you'd see in the Chopin. 

I see you said in another thread that you are a math major, so you are probably looking to use some sort of logic to defend your stance over a forum.  I don't think anyone can use actual logic to defend either of our points, but blindly trying to shut down what I have posted is a little bit lame.  Now you are just finding very specific instances that go against what I have said, and I don't even remember what your initial complaint was.

To the original poster, take what you want from this and run!

[japanesepianist]

     I asked my teacher if I could play Ravel's Sonatine, and she said that it could be a bit too hard. But, then again, she said that I couldn't play Fantaisie Impromptu for a couple of years, and then four months later, I finished it.

[thorn]

 We were talking about what I could use as new repertoire, I said, " What about Debussy? Can I play something from him?" and she replied with, " Uhhh, no, I don't think he would be a good composer for you." And that was the end of that discussion.

To me, that suggests the teacher is not comfortable teaching Debussy so is steering you away from him. I don't think it's a question of your ability at all. It's a bit of a stupid thing to say from any other point of view- if you play a lot of stuff that is totally different to Debussy, then sure when you start working on something it will probably sound rubbish/unstylistic etc. But you learn these things and it helps you become a more rounded musician, so of course it's beneficial.

The Ravel Sonatine you mention- the second movement isn't that difficult at all. The first movement is a bit more tricky, and the last, fair enough, is pretty hard. You don't have to learn the whole thing at once...

[49410enrique]

you could take it slow going into it, that is spend some time with his earliest more 'romantic' works before you get into the later 'impressionist' sounds for Debussy for example
has some nice moments of flash and 'pinash' which would feel at home in Liszt so it could be some nice 'pre work' on that front too

just a suggestion if it was more an issue with comfort w a particular style of music

[japanesepianist]

To me, that suggests the teacher is not comfortable teaching Debussy so is steering you away from him. I don't think it's a question of your ability at all. It's a bit of a stupid thing to say from any other point of view- if you play a lot of stuff that is totally different to Debussy, then sure when you start working on something it will probably sound rubbish/unstylistic etc. But you learn these things and it helps you become a more rounded musician, so of course it's beneficial.

The Ravel Sonatine you mention- the second movement isn't that difficult at all. The first movement is a bit more tricky, and the last, fair enough, is pretty hard. You don't have to learn the whole thing at once...

I'm not sure if she is trying to steer me away from his works, because she did teach a student the Prelude to Suite Bergamasque, and I really liked his interpretation. As sutpid as it sounds, I fell in love with him when I heard him play it. She could be trying to steer me away from playing Ravel, though, because I don't think that she has taught that to any of her students. I want to figure out how to convince her into letting me play Sonatine.

[scottmcc]

there's nothing wrong with falling in love with a piece of music, or with someone who plays it well. 

and I'm pretty sure that my wife has stuck around at least in part because of debussy's music.

it might be a bit subversive of me to suggest this...but why not take a few minutes a day after you've finished your assigned practicing, and teach yourself the sonatine?  the second movement is easier than some other things you already play.  once you work on it for a few weeks, play it for your teacher and say that you've been dabbling with it in your spare time and would like some help polishing it.  as long as you aren't slacking off in your regular practices I can't see any harm in going above-and-beyond.  however, some of the more "authoritarian" types would probably find great fault in this so proceed at your own risk!

[japanesepianist]

there's nothing wrong with falling in love with a piece of music, or with someone who plays it well. 

and I'm pretty sure that my wife has stuck around at least in part because of debussy's music.

it might be a bit subversive of me to suggest this...but why not take a few minutes a day after you've finished your assigned practicing, and teach yourself the sonatine?  the second movement is easier than some other things you already play.  once you work on it for a few weeks, play it for your teacher and say that you've been dabbling with it in your spare time and would like some help polishing it.  as long as you aren't slacking off in your regular practices I can't see any harm in going above-and-beyond.  however, some of the more "authoritarian" types would probably find great fault in this so proceed at your own risk!

Yeah! I'm sure she will be okay with that! That is how I got her to let me play Fantaisie impromptu! So, I'm not sure whether to do the first or second movement of Sonatine.

[scottmcc]

See my post in your other thread. Second mvt is much easier to start with. But also learn the opening motif from the first mvt, at least the upper voice. Be ready for some interesting overlapping of your hands that is probably unlike anything you've played to date, although not necessarily difficult, just different.

[davidjosepha]

and I'm pretty sure that my wife has stuck around at least in part because of debussy's music.

I laughed at this.

Yeah! I'm sure she will be okay with that! That is how I got her to let me play Fantaisie impromptu!

I don't know any more about your teacher than what you've told us, obviously, but if I were you, I'd consider getting a new teacher. Once you're at an advanced level, I think you know enough that you should be able to steer your musical path. When I was younger, my teacher would hand me Beethoven, and I'd play Beethoven; he'd hand me Bach, and I'd play Bach. Now, it's a discussion. He'll say, "I think you should add another Baroque piece to your repertoire. You haven't played much Scarlatti, have you? Why don't you take this book home and see if there's anything in it you like." Other times, I'll say, "I was listening to a lot of Liszt earlier and was wondering if his Sonata would be within my reach," and he'd say, "You know, I think you probably could play it, but it would take you a lot longer than if you waited a year or two, and you'd play it much better then too. You might want to get acquainted with his other shorter works first. Although, if you really have your heart set on it, of course you can try it." Now, maybe your teacher doesn't have to be quite that willing to do what you want to do, but if she won't even allow you to play a certain composer that is most likely within your reach, I think you might want to consider a different teacher.

[amelialw]

you could take a look at Debussy's Children's Corner too which is a set of pieces, very delightful, fun to learn and play I learnt Doctor Gradus ad parnassum a few years back and will def return to the set and finish it off within the next year or year+ depending when I have time