Can you learn Taubman method over skype?

[link0126]

I'm am looking into the Taubman technique but there are no teachers in my local area. Is it possible to learn this over skype from say Edna Golandsky or other certified teacher? Or is it necessary to have a hands on approach if you are just starting out with it?

[pytheamateur]

I can't see why you can't learn over Skype, unless the Taubman people haven't yet thought of this as a way of making money.  You are also supposed to be able to learn the Taubman technique quite adequately by paying 500 dollars for 10 DVDs.

[le_poete_mourant]

It is not. Taubman method HAS to be taught in person to be effective. There are too many ways to go wrong with it, and so much of it has to be teaching you the way to FEEL your body that it just will not be effective over video. It may be possible to diagnose your problems, but it will be very difficult to help you learn the correct Taubman method over skype. I strongly suggest you do not try this.

The same goes for the DVDs. While it may be a good introduction to the method, it will not help you learn how to do it yourself.

Steer clear of Edna Golandsky. She is not Taubman, nowhere near Taubman, and gets a lot of it wrong. Taubman herself was a genius for fixing people, but as with anything like this, it is too easy to interpret wrongly or teach incomplete information, which then can result in other problems.

[pytheamateur]

Steer clear of Edna Golandsky. She is not Taubman, nowhere near Taubman, and gets a lot of it wrong. Taubman herself was a genius for fixing people, but as with anything like this, it is too easy to interpret wrongly or teach incomplete information, which then can result in other problems.

I thought Edna Golandsky practically inherited the business and is the spokesperson for the Taubman technique.  The videos I was referring to are actually produced by her.  So if one is interested in Taubman, should one find a coach who has nothing to do with Edna Golandsky or her institute?

[le_poete_mourant]

So if one is interested in Taubman, should one find a coach who has nothing to do with Edna Golandsky or her institute?

Yes.

There are people out there who are excellent "taubman" or taubman-ish teachers. But it's hard to find because Taubman herself was such a ridiculous genius for the way people physically play the piano. It's hard to find somebody who understands it  on the same level. Golandsky is like a diluted form of Taubman and a lot of her approach misses the point, misses things all together or is incorrect...

[alhimia]

It is not. Taubman method HAS to be taught in person to be effective. There are too many ways to go wrong with it, and so much of it has to be teaching you the way to FEEL your body that it just will not be effective over video. It may be possible to diagnose your problems, but it will be very difficult to help you learn the correct Taubman method over skype. I strongly suggest you do not try this.

The same goes for the DVDs. While it may be a good introduction to the method, it will not help you learn how to do it yourself.

Steer clear of Edna Golandsky. She is not Taubman, nowhere near Taubman, and gets a lot of it wrong. Taubman herself was a genius for fixing people, but as with anything like this, it is too easy to interpret wrongly or teach incomplete information, which then can result in other problems.

I agree completely with everything you say. Here my own experiences with the Golandsky institute:

A few years ago I decided to attend the summer symposium because I felt limited (I wasn't injured though). I prepared a lot of questions and watched the tapes which I borrowed from my library. From the beginning I was already skeptic: some faculty members couldn't play their passages evenly and correctly! sure they all can play a c-major scale, but when it comes to playing real repertoire, it often sounds sloppy, and then I am not even speaking about the musical or artistical side...

Then, I had a very simple question: how to play a chromatic scale, because for some reason I never could do it properly and with security. After four(!) private lessons, I still didn't have a clue; I was totally confused (and dissapointed).

They didn't help me in fact with anything. I think this is because their knowledge on solving pianistical problems is very limiting because:

a) they focus only on the forearm, hand and fingers (so my problems of tension in the upper arm were not addressed at all)

b) they don't focus on sound, listening, expression ...etc. There is a video where Edna literally says: "You don't play with your ears or your head, you play with your forearm". Apparently, how you sound doesn't matter that much...

c) they put no attention to correct posture, so nothing was said about my back and shoulders, which, although I had no pain there or conscious discomfort, were completely in a wrong position. Also, my breathing was very irregular during playing, but again, nothing heard about that.

I have heard other persons with similar experiences. That having said, I still think there is some wonderful and extremely valuable knowledge in Taubman. It strikes me actually that two of perpahs greatest technical (and musical) players in history (at least in my opinion), Arcadi Volodos and Art Tatum, have hands that look very similar to Taubman.
I think the biggest problem is that Taubman is very limited. When you play for a Taubman teacher, they don't look at your musical and physical being as a wholeness, but only at your forearm.

On top of that, I have to say that I got very much the impression that those people (esp. E. Golandsky) are very commercial and business-oriented. So, I think the skype-lessons will benefit them much more than you. I would definitely discourage you from taking lessons this way.

 Golandsky is like a diluted form of Taubman and a lot of her approach misses the point, misses things all together or is incorrect...

That sounds interesting. Could you specify a bit more on which points golandsky is wrong and/or misses the point?

[le_poete_mourant]

That having said, I still think there is some wonderful and extremely valuable knowledge in Taubman. It strikes me actually that two of perpahs greatest technical (and musical) players in history (at least in my opinion), Arcadi Volodos and Art Tatum, have hands that look very similar to Taubman.

I think that is a very important observation! The idea with Taubman (at least, this is how I understand it) is that it's a way to get pianists to play with the most ideal, natural, relaxed physical approach. It makes plenty of sense that Volodos plays that way because he just has monster technique and I don't know if he could do what he does any other way.

https://reviews.pianotechnique.org/dorothy-taubman-piano-technique.php
I think this is a very interesting critique of Taubman, particularly some of Golandsky's videos. What you say about your experiences with Taubman also seems to be pretty on the mark to me.

a) they focus only on the forearm, hand and fingers (so my problems of tension in the upper arm were not addressed at all)

In fact, one of the problems that I believe Golandsky has is what you mention about your forearm. Focusing only on forearm, hand and fingers not only leads to your upper arm problems going unaddressed, but can cause many pianists to develop tension. The advice can lead to locking of the upper arm, when what you want is someone to help you free it.

b) they don't focus on sound, listening, expression ...etc.

One of the things people often observed about Taubman method students is that "they all sound the same." I think this stems from a problem of philosophy -- the idea was that if you create a beautiful tone, that's all that matters. And Taubman is meant to help you create a beautiful tone and it can. Obviously, that is a totally unmusical approach... A beautiful tone isn't going to get you anywhere if you don't know how to shape a phrase. But it does explain why they'd all sound the same...

c) they put no attention to correct posture, so nothing was said about my back and shoulders, which, although I had no pain there or conscious discomfort, were completely in a wrong position. Also, my breathing was very irregular during playing, but again, nothing heard about that.

That is a shame ... Have you ever explored Alexander technique? I think it is generally thought of for singers, but it can actually be very useful for other musicians too because it deals with breathing and posture.

Another problem you come across with Taubman teachers who don't get the whole point is that they take a key principle like "rotation" and then don't integrate it into the whole picture. Rotation is good, but if you just talk about that, it can only take you so far. Or even just something as simple as proper hand position. Taubman would correct people whose hands were turned out to the right too far (twisted, if you will) and some people can take that information and overcorrect, twisting their hand too far to the left, which is just as bad.

That having said, I still think there is some wonderful and extremely valuable knowledge in Taubman.

Absolutely! It's just hard to find someone who can give you the correct information, which is why Taubman generally gets a bad rap.

[pytheamateur]

I'm now glad that I did not spend 500 dollars on the Golandsky DVDs.  She does come across as very commercial to me.  Even if one leaves aside the the merits of the Taubman technique, or Golandsky's supposed mastery of it, one thing that is blindingly obvious is she, and many of the Taubman teachers for that matter, are undistinguished pianists.

[alhimia]

That is a shame ... Have you ever explored Alexander technique? I think it is generally thought of for singers, but it can actually be very useful for other musicians too because it deals with breathing and posture.

Yeah, I know about that. Recently someone looked very closely at my posture. Very useful!

It's just hard to find someone who can give you the correct information, which is why Taubman generally gets a bad rap.

That's always the danger with 'systems' and 'methods'. Their ongoing commercial appearence will not change that for the better, I suppose.

Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

[ajspiano]

Interesting thoughts - I hate to sound like a cult follower but this doesn't add up.

I personally think the videos are extremely valuable while also being completely inadequate. As has been stated there are a million ways to go wrong without a good in person guide.

Now..

in the first video, posture is discussed.

The entire 3rd video, in/out, is completely about shoulder/upper arm actions..

Large sections of the 5th video, is about SHAPING phrases. - and how different overall physical gestures result in different dynamics over an entire phrase.

There is a whole video on "grouping" which is all about how you mentally process music, not physically.

There is a whole video on memorization techniques, again not a physical focus.

In every video, edna is constantly stressing that the content does not work in isolation and ALL elements must be brought together to form an overall technique that is not all forearm.

....

If you actually watched all the videos and saw some of the dorothy taubman master classes you'd also soon realise that it is ALL ABOUT SOUND, and mental conception of that sound. That is her primary focus, physical elements are addressed when a student is having difficulty producing the conceived sound.

The reason the videos present as physical focus is because they are not a complete course. They are just recordings of lectures on a series of topics relating to physical elements of piano technique. Everyone there also received private coaching, and in most cases it appears that their physical concerns were address only as part of a bigger picture relating to the sound.

Now maybe that's how dorothy herself did it and not how the other teachers at the golandsky institute do now...? I wouldnt know.

I'd like to know why le_poete is so sure about this.. Who did you personally take lessons with on the faculty?

....

I do not know either way, I've never had a private taubman lesson, and I skipped skype lessons with edna because I didn't want to pay the $175/hour right now.

[alhimia]

in the first video, posture is discussed.

But not in great length or detail at all. I would rather say she touched the topic a bit. Have you seen the video of Thomas Mark What every pianist needs to know about the body? That has made much more sense to me.

The entire 3rd video, in/out, is completely about shoulder/upper arm actions..

And yet, as you said, you can go wrong with it in many ways. Also, keep in mind that a huge part of technique is invisible. Shoulder and upper arm can still be very tense, even when applying everything what they say in the video or what they told me privately.

There is a whole video on "grouping" which is all about how you mentally process music, not physically.

There is a whole video on memorization techniques, again not a physical focus.

In every video, edna is constantly stressing that the content does not work in isolation and ALL elements must be brought together to form an overall technique that is not all forearm.

That is not my point. I don't say that they stress too much on physical elements, I say that on all aspects, (physical, mental, musical, artistic, etc.) they are very limited, also physically. For example, they never talk about getting sound from, let's say your feet, back, abdomen/diaphragm area. They don't say a word about different sensations in the fingertips, different ways of striking the keys (with the finger). For them, (physical) efficiency is the highest goal, while art may need many times gestures that are not always the most efficient...

Also, as for Golandsky, they actually do stress that everything comes from the forearm and that the rest are mere symptoms, which I think is a debatable statement. Edna literally says: "the problem is not in your head, but in your hands." how could you separate those?

If you actually watched all the videos and saw some of the dorothy taubman master classes you'd also soon realise that it is ALL ABOUT SOUND, and mental conception of that sound. That is her primary focus, physical elements are addressed when a student is having difficulty producing the conceived sound.

The reason the videos present as physical focus is because they are not a complete course. They are just recordings of lectures on a series of topics relating to physical elements of piano technique. Everyone there also received private coaching, and in most cases it appears that their physical concerns were address only as part of a bigger picture relating to the sound.

Well, I actually did watch all of the videos and yes, they talk about sound, but not on a very advanced level, I would say. Nothing compared what you could get from world-class teachers...

...and I skipped skype lessons with edna because I didn't want to pay the $175/hour right now.

Does she really charge that much??   Well, actually, it doesn't surprise me that much, since, as I said before, their primarily focus (at least as I experienced it) is business, not music, art or helping people.

[le_poete_mourant]

I might add, although we got onto a discussion of the merits of Taubman/Golandsky et al.... that I don't think Skype lessons with ANYONE would be effective or useful in any way. Too much of piano playing has to be discussed in person, Taubman or not.

[pytheamateur]

I do not know either way, I've never had a private taubman lesson, and I skipped skype lessons with edna because I didn't want to pay the $175/hour right now.

Wow 175 dollars for a skype lesson lonly.  How much does she charge for a proper private lesson?  With that money I'd much rather study with a teacher from an established conservatory.

[thalbergmad]

I may be old fashioned and stuck in my ways, but I am convinced that technology will never provide us with a better way of learning the piano than two or more humans in the same room.

$175 for an hour Skype lesson is an outrage and surely would be better spent in person with a real teacher.

Thal

[khadsell]

I've never seen a pianist relaxed who uses this method.

[pytheamateur]

I've never seen a pianist relaxed who uses this method.

Are there actually any famous pianists that use the Taubman method?  Or put it in another way, has the Taubman institute ever managed to train a concert pianist of a reasonably good standard? 

[alhimia]

Are there actually any famous pianists that use the Taubman method?  Or put it in another way, has the Taubman institute ever managed to train a concert pianist of a reasonably good standard? 

There is Ilya Itin, he is on the faculty of the Golandsky Institute. However, he won already big piano competitions without ever having heard of Edna or Dorothy...

On youtube are several clips of him, so anyone can judge for him/her self. 

[pytheamateur]

There is Ilya Itin, he is on the faculty of the Golandsky Institute. However, he won already big piano competitions without ever having heard of Edna or Dorothy...

Oh, yes he is the winner of the 1996 Leeds International Competition.  However, as you have rightly pointed out, this success predates his involvement with the Golandsky Institute.

In order for him to add crediblity to the Golandsky Institute, I would need to see him come out and testify how the Taubman approach has improved him and how what he was doing before that was wrong.  I just cannot imagine that he would be prepared to put down his previous achievements (winning the Leeds, studying with Lev Naumov at the Moscow Conservatory, etc).  In fact, the harsh reality appears to be that his achievements since Taubman have failed to surpass his previous ones.  With that in mind, it seems his involvement with the Golandsky Institute is nothing more than a teaching position to support his concert career.

[phoenix3]

A pianist of Itin's stature does not need affiliation with the Golandsky Institute to aid his teaching career. He's on the Golandsky faculty because he is committed to the approach and incorporates it in his own playing. You can read a recent review at https://articles.philly.com/2012-07-16/news/32698945_1_leon-fleischer-leeds-competition-pianists

There's also a recent NY Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/arts/music/golandsky-institute-helps-musicians-avoid-pain.html?_r=3

Many pianists have had wonderful experiences with Golandsky and her institute. Here is testimony from another virtuoso pianist: https://www.golandskyinstitute.org/about/letters-entry/josu_de_solaun

The Israeli pianist Natan Brand was a Taubman student, but unfortunately he died very young. You can find some of his recordings on YouTube.

I'm sure that in-person lessons are better than Skype, but many people live at great distance from a good Taubman teacher. I have not experienced Skype lessons, but some who have say they work better than they expected.

I'm lucky to have in-person lessons that have gotten me past a debilitating injury and greatly improved my playing. If I were at a distance I would definitely look into the Skype option. (I wouldn't be surprised if Edna Golandsky herself is more expensive than some of the other teachers.)

[pytheamateur]

I see that Golandsky teaches the flute as well by applying the Taubman method.

[alhimia]

Are there actually any famous pianists that use the Taubman method?  Or put it in another way, has the Taubman institute ever managed to train a concert pianist of a reasonably good standard? 

I just listened to Natan Brand (former pupil of D. Taubman) - Chopin Bm Scherzo and I think it's FANTASTIC!! 

Here is the link:

[jmmetz]

Regarding Skype...

Regarding lessons over Skype, I can't imagine them being worth $175. I study with Marc Steiner in the Bay Area, and if I were to take the tactile element out of our lessons, it would ruin the whole thing. A teacher in the room with you can see you from every angle, can touch you and help you feel or notice certain sensations, can listen to the sound coming directly out of the instrument - rather than being transmitted into a cheap microphone back out through some cheap laptop speakers.

Then again, I've never done a Skype lesson with anyone, so I'm not necessarily the one to ask.

Forearm! Forearm! Forearm!

I do want to comment on a lot of the balderdash being tossed around regarding this method. For example, the person who went to GI a few years ago and decided to herself that  "All they care about is the forearm!!! Oh my!" ...Oh brother. If that's what you came away with, either you never got past rotation in your lessons (probably because your teacher couldn't get you to do it right) or the whole thing - the lessons, the lectures, the masterclasses, etc. - all went way over your head. And the fact that it all went way over your head is NOT a valid criticism of the technique in itself (though I admit, you may have been subjected to a bad teacher in your private lessons).

Don't study with Edna?

To the guy lambasting Edna Golandsky. Besides Dorothy herself, Edna is the official spokesperson for the approach. She is a very well respected pedagogue worldwide. And before she started the Golandsky Institute, she was with Dorothy at the Taubman Institute at Amherst College every summer. Edna was the one who taught all the lectures and also took private students. She has been steeped in the Taubman tradition, continues to teach it, and continues - with her colleagues at the institute - to fine tune the approach.

Here are the basic movements... and most of them are not (necessarily) about the forearm...

There are a few basic movement patterns they talk about. Forearm rotation is the first, and (apparently) the most essential. After that, there is in and out motions. Moving into and out of the black keys is NOT a forearm motion. It is an upper arm motion. Go ahead, take one hand and stabilize you UPPER ARM and try to move in/out of the black keys. Doesn't work. Okay... so that's not about the forearm. What about Shaping? Shaping, initiates in the forearm. But actually, the essential muscles that have to "give" during the shaping motion are UPPER ARM MUSCLES. Here, try shaping while holding your upper arm... It's impossible. So that's not necessarily about the forearm either... Hmm... What about the walking hand and arm? Well, the walking hand and arm is by definition upper arm movements to get your hand and fingers in the perfect position for them to work freely and with ease.

By the way, this is just the tip of the iceberg... Think they never talk about motions such as finger movement? Because... they DO. And they also talk about the torso and movement of the torso, especially when you have to adjust to one hand playing in front of the body. Oh yeah... and they never talk about POSTURE??? WHERE WERE YOU ON THE FIRST DAY OF CLASS? The first lesson in Taubman is always about alignment. This regards: seat height, posture, hand shape, etc.... the list goes on.

Someone criticized them for not talking about getting sound from the feet... First off, that's a bit silly. Your feet don't play piano......... But still, they do talk about the feet. Especially since you need to feel like your body is aligned and grounded if anything is going to work properly. Regarding moving one's torso to the side... they often describe it as "kicking off" from one of your feet (if you're leaning right, then it'd be "kicking off" from your left foot).

Regarding the teachers at GI not being very good pianists

I see why you bring this up. After all, "The proof is in the pudding, right?" Well, let's face it. A lot of the teachers are so hung up on the "method" that they can't just let go and enjoy a damned piece of music anymore. And a lot of them just don't practice enough because they're so much more devoted to teaching than actually mastering piano. Either way, I too wish that some of the teachers could act as better examples so that people had a clearer concept of the value of the approach. Edna herself is actually not a bad pianist. She plays well when she demonstrates, though it's not artistically very inspiring. John Bloomfield also does a great job in his demonstrations.

If you want to see a glut of pianists who are very much indebted to Dorothy Taubman, watch "Choreography of the Hands" on YouTube.

. A number of pianists from Juilliard in the 80's wound up injuring themselves or "feeling limited" and sought out Dorothy in Brooklyn. These pianists include Nina Scolnik (professor of piano at UC Irvine), Veda Kaplinsky (CHAIR OF THE PIANO FACULTY AT JUILLARD SCHOOL), Alan Feinberg (a fine pianist and interpreter of new music), and others.

And if you want to see a number of current pianists who are indebted to the work of Taubman and are students (past or present) of Edna Golandsky, look up Josu de Solaun (a rising star from Spain, studied at MSM) or Thomas Bagwell (a collaborative pianist who teaches now at the New School), and of course Ilya Itin...

[keyofc]

I have never listened to anyone that studied the Taubman method for long time and did not sound fantastic.
They might charge a forearm and a leg - but they do sound good.