Most beneficial Beethoven Sonata

[beebert]

Hi everybody! I am going to pick a new Beethoven sonata and was wondering which of all Beethoven sonatas would be the most beneficial for my technique. I am not talking about the hardest one, but more the sonatas around the same difficulty as Op 27 No 2(but I would like to learn another one than this one). So do you have any suggestions on a sonata around the same difficulty as moonlight that would be beneficial for my technique?

[williampiano]

If you're planning on learning the complete movements, then I would suggest op. 2 no. 1 in f minor.

[beebert]

Sorry I did not mention I have already played op 2 No 1, Op 10 No 3 and the Op 49 ones, so any except those

[williampiano]

Sorry I did not mention I have already played op 2 No 1, Op 10 No 3 and the Op 49 ones, so any except those

Oh, ok. Op. 10 no. 3 is quite advanced, so possibly op. 2 no. 2 might be a good, somewhat challenging next step.

[beebert]

Okay thanks I will look in to that one! Otherwise, my teacher suggested either Op 13, Op 26, Op 78 or Op 90. What do you think about learning any of those? Which one do you prefer?

[williampiano]

Okay thanks I will look in to that one! Otherwise, my teacher suggested either Op 13, Op 26, Op 78 or Op 90. What do you think about learning any of those? Which one do you prefer?

They all seem like very nice choices! Out of the four, if I had to choose one, I'd probably learn op. 90, as its one of my favorite sonatas. Op. 13 Pathetique is also really nice, but it seems to be played ALOT. Let me know what you choose!

[beebert]

Okay thanks! I'll let you know!

[nanabush]

I played Op. 78 last year, and am currently working on the Op. 57.  The first movement of the F# major is gorgeous, and the second movement is quirky.  A good combination, but to be honest, the second movement was TOUGH.  It is one of the most awkward things to keep relaxed, the fast two-note slurs.  I'm having an easier time with the 3rd movement of the Op 57 than that second movement.

It's also in a 'slippery' key; it reminds me of the Chopin Black key etude.  I'm shuddering right now remembering the amount of slow practice I had to do to get that second movement to work.  At my recital, it was a tossup between that and 'Alborada del Gracioso' for the "beast" of the performance.  It ended up being this one, as the Ravel has some really nice hand positions and has many more places to breath. 

So before you commit to it... check out the second movement and see if it seems manageable.  The first movement doesn't really give you any insight on how the second will work (entirely different technical scope for both).

[beebert]

Thank you nanabush for you information about the Op 78! I have decided two sonatas at the same time actually, and it stands between Op 13, Op 26 and Op 90. Which two of these three do you think I should choose? Do you have any info and suggestions about what sonatas I could learn the most from?

[j_menz]

The Pathetique is "played a lot" for a reason; it's good, and good practice.

[49410enrique]

i'd also add  the question if you'd be open to some of the Themes and Variations, we shouldn't rule them out of the discussion . in many juries, student recitals (formal requirements) and auditions they can be substituted for each other, in terms what they demand from performers, and the learning that can take place in their study they can be quite helpful and at least for me, equally enjoyable to learn.

for a sonata nod, my vote (which i vote this way a lot just because i love the freakin thing so much)
Piano Sonata No.18 in Eb, Op.31, No.3 ('The Hunt')

[beebert]

Hi 49410enrique! I did not quite understand what you meant about the themes and variations.. Could you explain more further, I am a bit stupid I guess

Yes I also love Op 31 No 3, or at least the first and second movement! The other two I seem to find a bit dull :/ But isn't that sonata supposed to be a lot harder than Op 26 and Op 90?

[49410enrique]

Hi 49410enrique! I did not quite understand what you meant about the themes and variations.. Could you explain more further, I am a bit stupid I guess

Yes I also love Op 31 No 3, or at least the first and second movement! The other two I seem to find a bit dull :/ But isn't that sonata supposed to be a lot harder than Op 26 and Op 90?

hey you're not stupid, i just wasn't very clear. i simply meant that some of the Themes and Variations are pretty substantial pieces of music and can also be considered as learning pieces similar in length and difficulty as some of the sonatas. In many schools they can actually be substituted for each other, for example if a sonata was required from a studnet, depending on the works, a Themes and Variations can be presented in fulfillment of the requirement sometimes, and you can learn a great deal from them, many of the same musical concepts in fact that some of the sonatas would help you work one. I just wanted to present another option in case you are having a hard time deciding on a sonata, you shoud look at those works also. that was all. no worries  


as for difficulty of one vs the other or the op 31 relative to others, i could not really say. Im not very good at 'grading pieces' i either like them or do not. and then sit down to readn and practice, then decide if I will be able to play it and play it well . or not.

[beebert]

Now I see what you mean enrique! Thank you for your help! I have decided to go with Op 26 and Op 90. When those to are learned I think I will go for Op 10 No 3 or Op 2 No 3 and Op 31 No 3(My god, I want to play all sonatas when thinking about it!)

[pytheamateur]

Op14 No1 in E is interesting, as is Op90 in E Minor.

[werq34ac]

Op. 14 is around the level of 2/1.

2/3 is a good sonata but recently its getting more and more overplayed. Not sure why.

Have you considered 10/2? It's a nice sonata (in my opinion the best of the Op. 10 set) and it's quite underplayed.

31/1 wouldn't be too bad either

13 only if you really love the piece, but it would be good for you to learn I suppose as a good "practice" Beethoven.

As for theme and variations, sure they are pretty good for technique but is there much we can learn musically aside from how Beethoven might have improvised?

[j_menz]

As for theme and variations, sure they are pretty good for technique but is there much we can learn musically aside from how Beethoven might have improvised?

Diabelli. Cough. Cough.

[werq34ac]

Diabelli. Cough. Cough.

Sure,  if the OP can handle it. I'm not saying he/she can't, just that isn't that a bit of a stretch from 27/2? Anyway, rereading the OP's first post, I missed the word "technical" which means that theme and variations are probably the best for OP's purposes.

Anyway, I hate theme and variations. Never found one that I actually liked.

[jorley]

I have played Op 13 and Op 26 and I actually found that Op 26 was ALOT harder, anyone agrees?

[j_menz]

Sure,  if the OP can handle it. I'm not saying he/she can't, just that isn't that a bit of a stretch from 27/2? Anyway, rereading the OP's first post, I missed the word "technical" which means that theme and variations are probably the best for OP's purposes.

Anyway, I hate theme and variations. Never found one that I actually liked.

I wasn't suggesting that OP attempt these; no-one should until they have done some (or all) of the late sonatas.

What I was disputing was your suggestion that none of Beethoven's Variation sets had profound musical merit.

[werq34ac]

I wasn't suggesting that OP attempt these; no-one should until they have done some (or all) of the late sonatas.

What I was disputing was your suggestion that none of Beethoven's Variation sets had profound musical merit.

I personally think the late sonatas are the hardest damn things ever written, but that's besides the point. Or maybe it's not, perhaps we'll come back to this point.

Anyway, I've always found variations to be just a single melody with the same overall chord progression played many different ways. Like adding arpeggios or playing in octaves. Sometimes the mood changes, but whatever, same melody, same chords. Too much repetition for my tastes. And if you don't know exactly how many variations there are, then they do seem to just stretch out endlessly.

[j_menz]

I personally think the late sonatas are the hardest damn things ever written, but that's besides the point. Or maybe it's not, perhaps we'll come back to this point.

Anyway, I've always found variations to be just a single melody with the same overall chord progression played many different ways. Like adding arpeggios or playing in octaves. Sometimes the mood changes, but whatever, same melody, same chords. Too much repetition for my tastes. And if you don't know exactly how many variations there are, then they do seem to just stretch out endlessly.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the late sonatas.

The Diabelli Variations may come as a surprise to you - I'm not generally a fan of sets of variations (with a few exceptions), but the Diabelli ones are not in the same league. They don't suffer from the faults you describe and are more musically difficult, demanding and experimental than even the late sonatas. I would class them as one of Beethoven's greatest, but probably least "accessible" works.

[49410enrique]

I'm inclined to agree with you about the late sonatas.

The Diabelli Variations may come as a surprise to you - I'm not generally a fan of sets of variations (with a few exceptions), but the Diabelli ones are not in the same league. They don't suffer from the faults you describe and are more musically difficult, demanding and experimental than even the late sonatas. I would class them as one of Beethoven's greatest, but probably least "accessible" works.

i would probably place the 32 var in c minor on an original theme (WoO80) in that category too. incredibly difficult, quite beautiful. the only 'student/amateur' performances of this i've been to were from the whiz kids that were in the "artist in residence's" studio at my previous school.

the list of top performers that have recorded them is pretty substantial
short descripty:

This powerful work dates from 1806, the year of the more lyrical Violin Concerto and Fourth Symphony. In form it resembles the famous Chaccone from Bach's D minor Partita for violin, with a short thematic fragment given equally terse variations. Beethoven's theme, however, is even shorter, a series of chords with a couple of runs thrown in, and there is a smaller range of emotion. The music is moody, or stormy, or melancholy; there is little light even in the brief major-key section (Variations 12-16). The work requires considerable virtuosity, with each variation presenting a different technical challenge so that it almost seems like a set of etudes. However, it is the sometimes violent emotional content that dominates. In the extended final variation the music at last finds its way into song, but it is a somber song which fades away with two quiet chords at the end

[wbl24]

Op 13 Pathetique is an oft-played sonata...well, because it's beautiful! Great fun to play (esp. the third movement). Just one word of warning: ensure that your left hand tremolos are COMPLETELY even in the first movement. That was the one and only major challenge I had during the entire sonata and it was one that was "burnt in" quite badly. Approach those with caution, get your stamina up, remember to relax and try not to hurt yourself playing it. Most of all, have fun!

[werq34ac]

i would probably place the 32 var in c minor on an original theme (WoO80) in that category too. incredibly difficult, quite beautiful. the only 'student/amateur' performances of this i've been to were from the whiz kids that were in the "artist in residence's" studio at my previous school.

the list of top performers that have recorded them is pretty substantial
short descripty:

This powerful work dates from 1806, the year of the more lyrical Violin Concerto and Fourth Symphony. In form it resembles the famous Chaccone from Bach's D minor Partita for violin, with a short thematic fragment given equally terse variations. Beethoven's theme, however, is even shorter, a series of chords with a couple of runs thrown in, and there is a smaller range of emotion. The music is moody, or stormy, or melancholy; there is little light even in the brief major-key section (Variations 12-16). The work requires considerable virtuosity, with each variation presenting a different technical challenge so that it almost seems like a set of etudes. However, it is the sometimes violent emotional content that dominates. In the extended final variation the music at last finds its way into song, but it is a somber song which fades away with two quiet chords at the end

Really? I've seen that piece played many times very well by students. I have yet to hear late Beethoven well by anyone under the age of 22

[asuhayda]

Op.13 Pathetique! Awesome song..  Those tremolos are tough tough tough!  Many people complain of difficulty playing those (some even say they've injured themselves).

Sounds like that is a good progression for you based on your previous rep.  Relax, pick a pivot point, and don't hurt yourself!

Best of luck!

[felipe717]

Sorry I did not mention I have already played op 2 No 1, Op 10 No 3 and the Op 49 ones, so any except those

Since you have already played Op.10/3 (which is the hardest of these) I'd suggest Op.28 or Op.2/3. I think that, as you can play these four sonatas, you should have some difficulty on playing Op.2/2, for example, because it's harder than Moonlight, and Op.78 is harder than Op.2/2. Pastoral may be very hard but I think that you can do it.
Op.10/1 can be a very simple piece since you play Op.10/3, but nevertheless a very good one. And I think Op.90 is harder than Moonlight, than Op.2/2 and than Op.78, so I wouldn't choose this one for now.
I think that for your level the best one is Op.10/2, because in the list of Beethoven's Sonatas by difficulty order Op.10/2 comes after Op.10/3, that you play.

At last, there are several sonatas/movements you can choose. Listen to a few of them and think about which one would be for your level (that I don't have known about)


I hope I have helped!

[werq34ac]

The pastorale is deceptively difficult. Tonal control... never had so much trouble with it

[nanabush]

I've heard the same thing about the Pastorale... someone in my studio last year played it.

Also, I wonder if people realize how difficult the second movement of Op.78 really is??  Just because this is a very short sonata, it is not necessarily an easier one.  The articulation in the second movement is VERY tough to play musically.  The longer, faster lines in some of the more 'difficult' sonatas allow you create more connected phrases, but the choppy two note slurs throughout Op 78 generate a really tough line to work with.  My two cents (I spent a long time last year learning the second movement, and currently finding that the Appassionata isn't all that much more difficult...)


I also realize that I posted pretty much this same thing earlier! lol

When choosing a sonata based on difficulty, don't look for the fastest passages!  Read through it and you will really find where the hard parts (for you) will be.  For example, the late sonatas are obviously demanding, but a tough passage for one person may be really easy for someone else.  Sit and try a bunch out, and listen to recordings while following the score...

[beebert]

I am picking this thread up again after months.. The case is this, I have since I started the thread learnt both Op 13 and Op 90 and would like to have your advice on which sonata to choose next. The three ones that I am deciding between are Op 26, Op 27 No 2 and Op 78. Op 78 has the advantage of being shorter, but I feel somehow maybe it wouldn't be as beneficial to learn as the other two, but perhaps I am wrong. So, what do you guys think, which one of these three sonatas should I learn next? My teacher lets me decide for myself, but I have a hard time choosing between them!

[mr_drm]

Op. 2 no. 3. It is nice for audiences and has several technical aspects that are good for a student, especially in the last movement.

[thesixthsensemusic]

To me the op. 13 'Pathetique' was the most useful, because it was the piece which made me take the leap from 'intermediate' to 'advanced' when I was 15. This was all a mental thing though, it was a piece I forced myself to play to prove to myself I could be a better pianist than I was before. As a result, I have a very special bond with that particular sonata. It was the breaking point at which I finally found salvation after 5 years of relentless practice and struggling, and realised how rewarding trying to be a pianist really is.

Apart from that, it also is a perfect piece to learn how to play tremolos with

I'd say the Beethoven sonatas contain many of the most beautiful, and most rewarding pieces of the repertoire. Pick one that is a true, but feasible, challenge for you, and fall in love with it, then learn it, and gain bucketloads of motivation in return...

And if you play the easier sonatas already, find a violinist and get rehearsing the 5th Violin Sonata. It's really beautiful and also a nice piece for the pianist. In case you are in for a challenge, there's a transcription for piano solo of it too. And you can find piano transcriptions of Beethoven's chamber music too, including his divine late-period string quartets. All of them are, if you would take a very dry approach, to be understood as piano sonatas, in their transcripted version that is. Just find some playable ones you really dig yourself!

[pts1]

Hmmmm.... I've been following the discussion and thinking about this... i.e. which is the best for technical improvement.

IMO, to really play these sonatas with any degree of comfort and assurance, your left hand is going to have to be better than your right hand.

IOW, the left hand, as in the Pathetique for instance, really sets and defines your tempo: you are ruled by it.

Again, someone mentioned the 32 variations in C minor, your left hand must set the tempo since it must play variations of equal difficulty to the RH ... which are therefore MORE difficult since most pianists are right handed and the LH is relatively undeveloped in the  literature.

Has anyone mentioned the Waldstein Sonata?

This one has all sorts of "delightful" technical problems. He wouldn't have to attempt to learn and finish the piece, but start with it as a musical study.

Full of tremolos, alberti type bases, right hand scalar and arpeggiated runs, trills, major endurance tasks.... i.e. something of a monster.

The 32 Variations also has some really unique difficulties and unlike the other poster who doesn't like variations, I love them.... at least these... because they ARE so musical and unique. Very difficult, but not as well rounded technically as one might think. No tremolos, Alberti base type passages which are strewn throughout Beethoven Sonatas.

But all in all, maybe the Pathetique would be a good choice without posing insurmountable problems.
Most of the real technical difficulties are in the first movement... the 2nd is famously gorgeous, and the third is certainly less difficult than the first and does not require specialized skills comparatively.
IOW, if you can play the 1st movement well, the rest of the Sonata is somewhat down hill technically. 

In addition, the Pathetique is recognizable by non musicians and is very easy to put on a recital program without fearing its something the audience cannot deal with.

I've played the above pieces so that's likely what I'd choose if I had to do it all over again.

[yogibear07]

I've learned OP 10 #2 and #1 in their entirety,also Op.#14.1. I got stuck on the Pathetique,1st mvmt with the rotations,etc.seems like there are so many counting issues(varying from teacher to teachers!) A good friend of mine did the Op.90(she was close to my level of playing) I also attempted the tempest  bit didn't finish it- I go to various piano programs/ playing in masterclasses for really good teachers and don't want to get my"arse " kicked for attempting pieces too difficult for me! Also the sense of closure and completion of a work is a great feeling. I think the works I mentioned are good quality,I also studied and performed "Na no pui me sento " variations. I used to turn my nose up at these "easier ranked pieces" but no more... I agree,Moonlight and Pathetique are grossly overplayed..! Good luck.
 

[elenka]

I'm currently studying Op. 81 n. 26 "Les Adieux" It's various for technique, I got better a lot after studying first mvt. I've already completed the 2 and I should start the third but at the moment I prefer leave it apart because I want to play different things... I've to finished Chopin op.10/12 and I started Rachmaninov prelude op 32 n.12 so I'm a little bit busy now. Anyway I think that every Beethoven Sonata among those medium-difficult are good to improve techical skills

[the89thkey]

Beethoven wrote a lot of sonatas which can improve technique. I'm thinking of 2/3 especially, because of the patterns in the first and last movements. Also Op 81 is good, but too many people shy away from it because of the difficult figures just after the introduction (if you don't know what I'm talking about glance at the score, you'll see them soon enough. fast chords against scales in the bass).

[benzwm02]

Hammer Klavier is the hardest to play and memorize. If you get this one under your belt well and can perform in public people will pay to see it.

[the89thkey]

Hammer Klavier is the hardest to play and memorize. If you get this one under your belt well and can perform in public people will pay to see it.

don't attempt this piece unless you are positive you are ready.

[thalbergmad]

I played it by sight perfectly, so I was positive I was ready.

Thal

[pianoman53]

I played it by sight perfectly, so I was positive I was ready.

Thal

Lol, I played it to perfection even before I heard it. Lol, noob.

[tchristec]

Lol, I played it to perfection even before I heard it. Lol, noob.

Pshh, I played it to perfection before Beethoven heard it 

[the89thkey]

What is the meaning of the last three posts in this thread? Why these posts with no content? Talk about piano please...and piano related to this thread at that.

[pianoman53]

Rach 3?

[the89thkey]

...and piano related to this thread at that.

Rach 3?

See how these don't really fit together? How about reading the title? Here's the initial post for you:

Hi everybody! I am going to pick a new Beethoven sonata and was wondering which of all Beethoven sonatas would be the most beneficial for my technique. I am not talking about the hardest one, but more the sonatas around the same difficulty as Op 27 No 2(but I would like to learn another one than this one). So do you have any suggestions on a sonata around the same difficulty as moonlight that would be beneficial for my technique?

So. If you think your post relates to this, I'm afraid you are delusional my friend.

[perfect_pitch]

See how these don't really fit together? How about reading the title? Here's the initial post for you: So. If you think your post relates to this, I'm afraid you are delusional my friend.

Shut up, troll!!!

[pfhorrest]

The complete Op. 31 will teach you finger and pedal control above all else - very very valuable skills. Plus, with the complete op. 31, you'll always have a wonderful time programming your performances - playing the complete op. 31 in a concert is nothing short of magical.

[ade16]

I have read all of the postings with interest. My personal view is that all Beethoven piano sonatas present serious technical challenges one way or another. These works, written throughout his life reflect his own formidable technique. Many pianists used to shy away from finding themselves in competition with Beethoven in terms of informal piano tournaments. Some very interesting and amusing research is available in these respects. At the end of the day it is down to personal taste. Choose a sonata you like the sound of/respond to as a listener and  do not be fooled into thinking there is an easy Beethoven Sonata.

Clearly the level of difficulty varies greatly however, and I agree with the view that some sonatas are much more famous than others for a reason. Beethoven's own personal favourite was Op.28, but I have personally found it difficult to understand why. Of the more well known ones Op.31 no.2 is a personal favourite of mine, with plenty of technical challenges. It really is down to personal taste.
On another point, how anyone can say that they perfected Op.106 at first sight I find staggering! There are many subtleties in this piece that take years of practice to bring out. Generally, I would say to explore and try sonatas out. You will soon know whether you are drawn to it on the one hand, and whether a particular movement is within your technical grasp at the moment or not. If not, identify the technical problem and practise.
Some other favourites of mine which I have played for many years are Op.13, Op.26. Op.27 nos 1 and 2, Op.53, Op.110. I am also seriously starting to look at Op.111, in my opinion an even more challenging and rewarding sonata than Op106 which I have attempted too. By the way, Beethoven regarded his greatest work for piano to be his last one, namely the 33 Diabelli Variations Op.120. He managed to turn a really banal theme by Diabelli into sublime music, a set of keyboard variations surpassed only perhaps by Bach's Goldberg Variations.

Granted, a lot of this is my own personal opinion, reflecting my own personal taste in music, including Beethoven's music, however this is precisely my point; in the end it does come down to personal preferences. First fall in love with a piece and then be inspired and motivated to learn it, then tackle every technical obstacle as it arises. If necessary get lessons. No one is so advanced that they would not benefit from lessons from a pianist more experienced than themselves! I am a very experienced pianist and piano teacher but have taken extra lessons myself from top notch professionals when I found I needed an extra edge to my performances, and also when I could afford it!

[j_menz]

By the way, Beethoven regarded his greatest work for piano to be his last one, namely the 33 Diabelli Variations Op.120. He managed to turn a really banal theme by Diabelli into sublime music, a set of keyboard variations surpassed only perhaps by Bach's Goldberg Variations.

While I agree that the Diabelli Variations are probably Beethoven's greatest piano work, they are not his last. That honour goes to the Op 126 Bagatelles.

[ade16]

Absolutely right, Beethoven Op 126 Bagatelles it is! My mistake. Still love the Diabelli variations though. Heard Brendel live when I was a teenager and was totally inspired!