Straighter vs. curved fingers

[nick]

Wondered  what others have observed on whether straighter or curved fingers work best for fast scalelike passages.  My own experience points to straighter. I tried at speed of 116 both ways repeating the passage back to back, and with curved I tired to the point of not being able to keep repeating after a certain number of repeats. Straighter was like a relief, much less tension apparently. However, more curved worked better on the first difficult passage in the 3rd movement of the appassionata sonata in L.H.( anyone who has worked on it knows the part I am talking about.) This obviously was not a scalelike passage.

Nick

[xvimbi]

Didn't we discuss this already a while back?

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

chopin only used straight fingers not curved

[super_ardua]

Semi-curved. Straight is alright but easy to lose control.  Curved is too tense.

[Brian Healey]

It depends on what you consider "curved". If you consider "curving" to be physically bending your fingers so that they drive into the key almost vertically, then that's going to be counter-productive. That kind of curve requires muscle effort to maintain, and also usually forces your wrist up where it should not belong. You won't reach optimal speed that way. Fingers have a natural curve to them, therefore straight fingers require muscle effort also. Notice how when you straighten your fingers, it requires a pulling motion, and when you let go, they spring back to the natural curve like a rubber band. Even that little amount of tension will hinder your velocity and cause you to fatigue quicker. The best way to play scales is the way that requires the least muscle effort, which is the natural curve. Looser hands play faster.

Personally, the way I play scales is by using my wrist more than the fingers. I use the circular wrist motion and sort of "throw" each finger at the key from the knuckle. To an observer, my finger would look straight, but they assume the natural curved position during contact with the key. That's what I would recommend, but everybody's different.

[nick]

Thanks for the responses. I meant straighter, not straight. so the natural curve as opposed to that very curved position many like. Yes, much less tension this way. One doesn't notice at slower speeds the tension difference as much.

Nick  

[mound]

Take a look at Chang's book, the section on playing fast scales (https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm)..

I think it also depends on context.. I'm working on a piece right now with lots of octave 4 note chords. it's working best using flat fingers on the black keys and curved fingers on the white keys and switching quickly as the score dictates.

-Paul

[nick]

Take a look at Chang's book, the section on playing fast scales (https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm)..



-Paul

No thanks. I had my fill of Chang's theory. Doesn't work for me since I like a full strong tone.

Nick

[chopinsetude]

No thanks. I had my fill of Chang's theory. Doesn't work for me since I like a full strong tone.

Nick

Not to be negative but I have to agree.  My piano teacher read the Chang excerpt on stright fingers and told me to disregard that notion.  For full tone and control of dynamic one needs to stay on your tips.  

There is some debate as to whether Chang was inferring that stright fingers should only be used when playing fast scales, but I don't see this as logical either.  Fast scales come when you add emphasis to every fifth or 9th note in your run.  I don't think this is possible withought having curved fingers.  I've been running scales and arpeggios  an hour a day for a couple of years now.  It's curved or nothing for me.

eric

[nick]

Not to be negative but I have to agree.  My piano teacher read the Chang excerpt on stright fingers and told me to disregard that notion.  For full tone and control of dynamic one needs to stay on your tips.  

There is some debate as to whether Chang was inferring that stright fingers should only be used when playing fast scales, but I don't see this as logical either.  Fast scales come when you add emphasis to every fifth or 9th note in your run.  I don't think this is possible withought having curved fingers.  I've been running scales and arpeggios  an hour a day for a couple of years now.  It's curved or nothing for me.

eric

Chopinsetude, I was refering to Chang's idea of playing fast, not on the finger position. Since I use weight as a means of tone production, straighter fingers gives just as much tone or weight as more curved, and for me at fast speed, much less tension, allowing me to continue repetitions without stopping as often. We can observe great pianists using both curved, like Rudolph Serkin (although his son who became a concert pianist uses straighter) and straighter, like Gould . For you, curved works so no need to change.

Nick

[mound]

but full tone comes from arm weight, not the fingers.  I too have been running scales with curved fingers, "thumb under" technique and am pretty fast. I haven't yet changed my ways from reading Chang's book and I don't know if I ever will honestly.. I'm finding his work most useful for learning new material quickly.. As far as actual physical hand technique, I'm still unsure (Sorry Dr. Chang!) as I've been trained otherwise.

edit: but he did mention to me with regards to some fast 4note chord passages, that I'll need to alternate between flat fingers on the black keys and curved fingers on the white keys. This I find completely acceptable and intuitive..

-Paul

[xvimbi]

 I too have been running scales with curved fingers, "thumb under" technique and am pretty fast. I haven't yet changed my ways from reading Chang's book and I don't know if I ever will honestly.. I'm finding his work most useful for learning new material quickly.. As far as actual physical hand technique, I'm still unsure (Sorry Dr. Chang!) as I've been trained otherwise.

Are you talking about thumb-under vs. no thumb-under for fast passages? If so, I don't think there is any doubt that thumb-under is a big roadblock and should be avoided at any cost. This, by the way, is not Chang's insight, so don't bash him. This notion has been around for hundreds of years.

However, if thumb-under works for you, then by all means stick to it.

[super_ardua]

chopin only used straight fingers not curved

Chopin also had different shaped hands than you

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

that was tip from his letters. playing with straight hands is far betta bcoz ur hand is relaxed. hold ur hand up and relax it thats straight fingers and they reach more keys thatn curved fingers. but anyway thats jus me

[mound]

Are you talking about thumb-under vs. no thumb-under for fast passages? If so, I don't think there is any doubt that thumb-under is a big roadblock and should be avoided at any cost.

I was specifically referring to playing scales. I agree, for very fast passages, thumb over.. I'm working on a piece right now with very fast downward cascading quintuplets.. (err.. right? like triplets, only 5 instead of 3) - that absolutely requires thumb over. So it's context really.

This, by the way, is not Chang's insight, so don't bash him.

Yes, I know, and I wasn't bashing him! He's been very helpful.

-Paul

[min@m]

I think you need to practice both straight and curved finger scales.  When playing advanced pieces, there are parts you need to play with curved fingers and other parts where you need to play with straight fingers.  They are like tools you need when you build something.  Having one tool limits you to making just one type of structure.  Having both lets you be flexible in choosing which tool is best.  I generally play curved when I need the quality of sound to be clean and clear.  When you want a longer sound and more legato, you should play with straighter fingers.  In the 3rd movt of the Appassionata, you probably want to start with curved because the 16th notes begin in a lower register where it is not so clear.  You definitely need lots of articulation in that piece!  It all boils down to you knowing when and where to use what.

[nick]

I think you need to practice both straight and curved finger scales.  When playing advanced pieces, there are parts you need to play with curved fingers and other parts where you need to play with straight fingers.  They are like tools you need when you build something.  Having one tool limits you to making just one type of structure.  Having both lets you be flexible in choosing which tool is best.  I generally play curved when I need the quality of sound to be clean and clear.  When you want a longer sound and more legato, you should play with straighter fingers.  In the 3rd movt of the Appassionata, you probably want to start with curved because the 16th notes begin in a lower register where it is not so clear.  You definitely need lots of articulation in that piece!  It all boils down to you knowing when and where to use what.

I always strive for clean and clear notes, and straighter fingers works just fine for me. I don't differentiate between low notes or high, as I play clean and clear no matter what register. Making sure the finger gets off the key when the next goes down keeps it clear. Obviously if one plays faster than one's technique allows, there is a loss of clarity. Some find it easier with curved, others straighter.

Nick

[min@m]

I always strive for clean and clear notes, and straighter fingers works just fine for me. I don't differentiate between low notes or high, as I play clean and clear no matter what register. Making sure the finger gets off the key when the next goes down keeps it clear. Obviously if one plays faster than one's technique allows, there is a loss of clarity. Some find it easier with curved, others straighter.

Nick

You need to take more time with lower register notes.  There needs to be more space between the notes for the sound to be really clear.  Higher register notes dont have much resonance so it is easier to play clearer.  What I meant with the curved fingers is there is a touch you can get with that kind of technique that you cant get with straight fingers.  As an artist, you need to be able to play many different kinds of ways since music is a way to express your emotions.  You have many different emotions as well as feelings in the music and so you need to have as many tools as you can to express the varying emotions.  

[Sketchee]

People always comment that my fingers are suprisingly straight much of the time when I'm playing.  It really depends on the passage.

I think part  what they tend to see is I relax my fingers that aren't use a bit so they are a  bit straighter.  Still on some passages, I use curvier fingers and on some I use straighter fingers.  Whichever worked best in practice to get the sound I want.

I think it's best to experiment and know the most you can about as many different methods of playing.  Whether it's your teacher's, changs, other pianists on this forum or who you know, you never know when that little bit of advice and knowledge will come in handy.  Even if you can't apply something to any of the pieces you're working on now, the next piece you learn might have a passage where the method works for at least one passage or measure.  I'd at least read it with an open mind.

Even the best pianists in the world won't entirely agree on how to practice, how to approach a new piece, or even how to play the exact same passage.  With that in mind, I like to think that I don't know better or that any book knows better ... we just know differently.  What just matters in the end is what you can get to work.  It doesn't have to be straight -versus- curved.  They both are just two different techniques that we can use.  

Just IMHO!

[nick]

You need to take more time with lower register notes.  There needs to be more space between the notes for the sound to be really clear.  Higher register notes dont have much resonance so it is easier to play clearer.  What I meant with the curved fingers is there is a touch you can get with that kind of technique that you cant get with straight fingers.  As an artist, you need to be able to play many different kinds of ways since music is a way to express your emotions.  You have many different emotions as well as feelings in the music and so you need to have as many tools as you can to express the varying emotions.  

Because the lower register notes sound more "muddy" when played fast, I simply use less pedel, sometimes none, without changing my technique for fast clear notes. I do notice that when playing fast, depending on the arrangement of black vs. white notes, some fingers are straighter and some curved, but this is not because I decided I would have a better tone one way or the other. It is because physically it was most expedient. However, the general approach is the more straighter. Also, when I have experimented with curved vs. straighter fingers on the sound, since I use weight for tone production, I don't hear a difference between the two, whether the finger strikes a little above the key or  on the key. Maybe my hearing is not developed enough, I don't know. I have read where curved gives a "brighter "sound, but I don't hear it. I notice a difference in feeling between the two, but not sound.

Nick  

[chopinsetude]

People seem to equate straight fingers to being "relaxed".  I find my hand is most relaxed when my fingers are curved.  I sleep the same way.  

When I play the piano I tend to roll "into" the piano with curved fingers so not to pull the keys towards my torso.

maybe it's just my habit...

eric

[ted]

In my youth I played with quite flat (but not flabby or bent-back) fingers. As I have aged they have become much more curved. The reason for this is is anybody's guess.