Stupid things music snobs say to us

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Some guy got mad at me for spelling Appassionata incorrectly.  spelled it with one s in stead of two and he raged at me soo hard! 

[ajspiano]

A forum member once got a bit upset with me for having a crack at beethoven on a personal level..

..I also managed to piss off a high-school music teacher once for disputing the validity of "D# major".

really though..

D# E# Fx G# A# B# Cx D# - its getting a little convoluted to be bothered with I feel.. Writing in Eb wont kill you.

I was also nearly banned from my towns eisteddfod (in subsequent years) as a 13 yr old for improvising on my piece in the winners concert. I received a scathing letter from the commitee detailing how rude it was of me to disrespect the composer, and my teacher (a commitee member) gave me a WHOLE LESSON LECTURE on what a poor example I had set for other students.

EDIT: For the record - it was a JAZZ piece. JAZZZZZ. 

[nanabush]

Teachers/students who laugh and 'guffaw' when you mention the Beatles or something.  Who cares, they didn't have 40 years of classical training, they went and did their own thing... I'm mentioning them, calm down!

Generally, people who will sit you down and pretty much force you to listen to something that they love, but refuse to listen to something you want to show them.  Generally, Jazz musicians will post tons of videos on my facebook, and BUG me to death about what I drew from it, what I liked, etc.  If I post a piece, they instantly criticize it, as if they knew the composer personally and were aware that is was a weak piece.  I can't stand that!

Musicians who are close minded are jackasses in general.  If one is open to discussion, then it becomes really interesting working with them.  If they are instantly saying that it's bad either because they haven't heard of it, or because the group/artist may have won a grammy, then these people are snobs to the max.

Musicians who don't care to do some research on a piece/composer/artist.  There are some artists today who produce really good music, and they have a really interesting story.  As soon as it gets radio time (even CBC!!!), it's labelled 'mainstream', therefore it is crap, QED.  There is obviously some music on the radio I don't really like, but I don't go out of my way to sh!t on everyone who likes that music.  If you do that then you are just a rotten person who is unhappy in general.

In the last year, I've seen more people like this than I needed to, so I have a lot of rant-oriented posts recently.  Also, people who take stabs at you for one comment/thread you post.  They don't know your background, they take things out of context, they leave vague remarks, and are probably just looking for a way to prove someone wrong.  When it comes to 'difficulty' of a piece, there is no proving right or wrong, unless you can provide a proof of some sort.  In music, it is never that simple; this is why we offer SUGGESTIONS and OPINIONS, not DEFINITIVE ANSWERS to vague/subjective questions.

Damn.

[williampiano]

There's always those musicians that are really obsessed with any composer, genre etc., and if I say I'm not a fan of it, then they tell me how I haven't listened to it enough, and how I need to keep listening, and keep listening until I like it. It always seemed like a form of musical snobbery to me.

[synthifou]

It’s really not listening to something enough until you like it that’s going to change your mind about anything, it’s your attitude before you listen that predetermines the outcome.  You’re not going to like something you don’t want to like.  When I get hassled by someone obsessed with a particular composer, even if I find it dubious (but not clearly too inane), I try my hardest to listen and understand why he/she likes it so much.  It’s a good way to expand your horizons.  

[quantum]

I recall a story of a church musician that liked to improvise.  For some reason he got scolded for doing that by the priest.  Perhaps improvisation was thought to have much lower regard than that of written music.  He created a "persona" for himself and printed that in the Sunday program, and continued to improvise.  From that time on the priest absolutely loved the music by "M. Ozart." 

[49410enrique]

I recall a story of a church musician that liked to improvise.  For some reason he got scolded for doing that by the priest.  Perhaps improvisation was thought to have much lower regard than that of written music.  He created a "persona" for himself and printed that in the Sunday program, and continued to improvise.  From that time on the priest absolutely loved the music by "M. Ozart." 

too funny. perhaps the priest forgot the origins of church music and how improvised music was foundational back then
www.whitwellessays.com/docs/DOC_1026.doc

"...Essays on the Origins of Western Music

by

David Whitwell


Essay Nr. 130:  Comments on Renaissance Improvisation










Today most “classical” musicians think of improvisation as something added to a composition or a special skill to be applied in certain measures.  We tend to forget that for many centuries before the advent of modern notation all music was improvised.  Likewise, we tend to forget that early Renaissance music was not that far removed in time from the period when there was still no agreed upon notational system.  This is very clear, to cite one example, when one considers how few 14th century Italian organ manuscripts exist.  If there were no manuscripts, what were all those organists in 14th century Italy doing?  Gustave Reese adds that the absence of even later works by many famous 16 century organists may be explained by a practice of improvisation.    He also finds this the intent of a Venetian decree of 1546 that no canons or priests should interrupt performing organists, but should remain quiet and patiently await the end of a piece...."

"...For most modern readers the biggest surprise is that improvisation was also prevalent in the performance of early Church music, for few music history books dare to discuss this topic.   The one early writer who did discuss this at some length was Johannes Tinctoris (1435 - 1511), one of the greatest of the early theorists. ..."

[iansinclair]

It is sometimes worth remembering that "snob" is an English word, and originally derived from the abbreviation after a student's name at Oxford -- "s.nob." -- which meant "not from the nobility" (at a time when that really did mean something). 

I try to ignore them (and I have a couple in my family, sadly enough).  Since I don't have to play anything (there's a lot to be said for being retired!) I simply don't play anything when they are around.

Some of the worst snobs are to be found in the world of opera -- although ballet isn't far behind.

[starstruck5]

It is sometimes worth remembering that "snob" is an English word, and originally derived from the abbreviation after a student's name at Oxford -- "s.nob." -- which meant "not from the nobility" (at a time when that really did mean something). 

I try to ignore them (and I have a couple in my family, sadly enough).  Since I don't have to play anything (there's a lot to be said for being retired!) I simply don't play anything when they are around.

Some of the worst snobs are to be found in the world of opera -- although ballet isn't far behind.

Thanks for that gem of information! I didn't know that about the word snob -I always thought it was something to do with the nobility sticking their nose up in a condescending manner.

I got into trouble on here for spelling Mussorsky wrong -oops I did it agin -

Also calling his Night on a bald mountain -Night on a Bear Mountain -lol  A much better title don't you think?

[gitaristica]

Ballet snobs... I really love those. A few months ago I went to the theatre to watch Swan Lake. Next to me, there was a young man who passionately counted every fouette the dancer made. Instead of 32 she made 31. He was so mad... And the lady who was apparently with him called the poor dancer "idiotic cow". I was shocked. I never count the fouettes because I know how hard it is to do 32! Not everybody is Pierrina Legnani and people should respect that.

[iansinclair]

Ballet snobs... I really love those. A few months ago I went to the theatre to watch Swan Lake. Next to me, there was a young man who passionately counted every fouette the dancer made. Instead of 32 she made 31. He was so mad... And the lady who was apparently with him called the poor dancer "idiotic cow". I was shocked. I never count the fouettes because I know how hard it is to do 32! Not everybody is Pierrina Legnani and people should respect that.

Don't even get me going on ballet snobs.  My son and daughter in law are both professionals (just retired, at 35 -- injuries)(Les Grand Ballets Canadien de Montreal).  I've heard comments (like the girl you mention) so many times... the only solution is to duck back stage during the intervals, but one can't always do that.

[zezhyrule]

"Stupid things musical snobs say to us?"

Just ask anyone I talk to. I'm horrible at being a snob myself 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

"Stupid things musical snobs say to us?"

Just ask anyone I talk to. I'm horrible at being a snob myself  

When I saw Stephen Hough last month, this is what happened.

*finished playing moonlight sonata*

Sister:  wow that was flawless.

Me:  almost...

Sister:  really?  Where?

Me:  the last movement he hit a couple stray notes on like two or three chords.  I don't remember exactly where

*about to play his sonata*

Sister:  well since this is our first time hearing this, we can't tell if he makes any mistakes.

Me:  well, yes you can.  

Sister:  how?  

Me:  it's hard to explain, but unless if it's completely atonal like some Ligeti or Schoenberg, then you can tell.  But then you can still tell a stray note.  I guess it has to be Ligeti or Schoenberg with really loud, fast, and a lot of notes with some pedal to not be able to tell.

*just finished playing it*

Sister:  wow, now THAT was flawless.

Me:  almost  

Sister:  where?  

Me:  like half a minute after he started it.  

I don't know if that's snobbish, I wasn't raging at anyone.

[j_menz]

I don't know if that's snobbish, I wasn't raging at anyone.

LOL, the first step down a very slippery slope. 

[sphince]

Disclaimer:The music in which I will be referring is not included in the context of this forum,I have no purpose of hating on this particular genre of music nor it's followers,all rights reserved.

One day I was contacted by a guitarist and a singer who wanted me to play with them on a so called "jazz bar" and do some improvs and a couple of their songs for some cash so I went to their studio to do some *jammin'*.I was never fascinated about *black music* but I could use the cash so I accepted.The following evening I went there to meet them and we started the improvs.The guitarist said "Guys the main idea for this one is b- pentatonic"
           Me:*Um excuse me Sir* What is pentatonic?
           Him:You don't know the pentatonic blues scales?
           Me:Nope
           Him:How's that?? I thought you were a true musician,pentatonic scales are the most  important scales in music.We can't just show up and play *betoven* and *tsopin*
           Me:I think it doesn't provide enough variety.
           Him:Oh come on man your killing mah vibe here...We are true musicians and we must show the black roots of the music we're playing.Pentatonics are what the black men played through their struggle.We have to show that mang!:@
           Me:Well I don't think it's easy to show it,we're all white(trolled)
                 Anyway How about we improvise on a major(or minor) scale so that I can follow?
           Him:What's major?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

 I went to their studio to do some *jammin'*

Lol that's what I call screwing around.  It's soo fun though!

.I was never fascinated about *black music*

I wonder what constitutes black music...

 

I thought you were a true musician,pentatonic scales are the most  important scales in music.

No, Scriabin's Mystic scales are the most important scales in music!!!!!! 

 Him:Oh come on man your killing mah vibe here...We are true musicians and we must show the black roots of the music we're playing.Pentatonics are what the black men played through their struggle.We have to show that mang!:@
           Me:Well I don't think it's easy to show it,we're all white

LOL!!!

[chadbrochill17]

Mispronunciation. Whenever I do it I'm guaranteed a guffaw or gasp of horror as the snob snaps back the correct pronunciation. I'm sorry. I haven't seen that name before and it is mostly consonants. Get a life.

[j_menz]

No, Scriabin's Mystic scales are the most important scales in music!!!!!! 

Mystic scales? I thought it was just a chord. 

Either way, it's truly amazing that anything was written before he stumbled across it. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert........ however did they cope? 

[49410enrique]

Mystic scales? I thought it was just a chord. 

Either way, it's truly amazing that anything was written before he stumbled across it. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert........ however did they cope? 

duh, anyone that knows anything about music knows they relied on the composerstreet.com composer forum where they trolled each other with multiple sign on accounts/user names and debated ad nausam about the same topics, i.e hey i'm about to compose my next piece , can you rate in order of difficulty these so i can choose and tell me why each one is harder or easier than the other?
a symphony
a piano prelude
an arm pit fart etude
etc. etc.

[j_menz]

duh, anyone that knows anything about music knows they ... trolled each other ... and debated ad nausam about the same topics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Romantics

LOL, truer than you might think. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Mystic scales? I thought it was just a chord. 

Well chords are in scales right?

[j_menz]

Well chords are in scales right?

Yes, but it is not always self evident which.

[danielekstrom]

Jazz snobs. They're the most annoying people in the world. They're worse than classical snobs, I find. Classical snobs tend to have a cold, businesslike demeanor, but jazz snobs are just smug. They act as though they've found the holy grail or something. Most of the time they're very, very ignorant. They treat non-jazz musicians as if they possess no creativity at all and are just reciting things by rote as if it were a spelling bee (which is only sometimes the case). They're really awful. Note: Jazz snobs, not jazz musicians, for the most part jazz musicians are awesome people.

[adari]

Jazz snobs. They're the most annoying people in the world. They're worse than classical snobs, I find. Classical snobs tend to have a cold, businesslike demeanor, but jazz snobs are just smug. They act as though they've found the holy grail or something. Most of the time they're very, very ignorant. They treat non-jazz musicians as if they possess no creativity at all and are just reciting things by rote as if it were a spelling bee (which is only sometimes the case). They're really awful. Note: Jazz snobs, not jazz musicians, for the most part jazz musicians are awesome people.

Clearly, you haven't had any conversations with blues snobs...
I can't stand when someone so vehemently composes complexity, adventurousness and even technical ability. Why must they insist on music being dumbed down enough for them to digest every note separately?

[danielekstrom]

Clearly, you haven't had any conversations with blues snobs...
I can't stand when someone so vehemently composes complexity, adventurousness and even technical ability. Why must they insist on music being dumbed down enough for them to digest every note separately?

Oh god, well, I've never really come in contact with them, but I can only imagine what that would be like. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good to simplify things when they get too out of hand, but can't even imagine how annoying someone like that might. Kind of reminds of me reverse snobbery. Reverse snobs are a new phenomenon of bitter people who hate anything to do with arts and culture simply because they can't grasp it and have been rejected.

[nanabush]

I grew up with reverse snobs.  Most kids in public schools are like that... anything sounding like 'classical' or 'piano' is "totally gay", and rock music or ' the new hot 89.9' (the crappy radio station that only really plays Rihanna) is what music is all about.


I'm not hating on Rock music (I listen to a lot of rock/metal music...), but for a lot of people it's either Rock or it's crap. 

I gave another go at showing my friend some music I like.  I showed him 'Paranoid Android' by Radiohead, 'Starla' by Smashing Pumpkins, 'Rusty Cage' by Soundgarden, 'Schism' by Tool, and then I threw a curve ball and played him some Animals as Leaders (the guitarist is phenomenal, and in interviews he can actually explain coherently what he's playing... not mindless shredding!)... my friend is not even paying attention when I'm playing it, and really goes out of his way to pick every bit of a song apart and say that it's crappy... he'll only listen to stuff that he already knows/likes, and FORCES it at people.  If ever anyone is hanging out, at whoever's house, he is 'that guy' who takes youtube hostage and plays whatever he wants to listen to.  He'll also kind of get everyone to sit there and listen to it... this lasts like 2 hours.  We're all too nice to cut him off.

Speaking of Jazz snobs... I know exactly what you mean when you said they think we play everything by rote... I know this Jazz guitarist who only likes Bach becuase his teacher studied Bach guitar music.  Everything between that and the mid 1900's is 'pointless music'.  He'll send you a message over facebook at like 4AM saying stuff like "what is the point in a music degree... do you want to be a hermit for the rest of your life?... you have to gig man... you have to gig... once you know the master scales like the diminished scale and you have the chops, you can go off and do your own stuff... f*ck the government bla bla bla... creativity comes from yourself, why do you have to sit and read prewritten material"... not joking, if you spark any sort of argument with this dude, he feels like he has to corner you and rub his own knowledge in your face.

[pianoman53]

I like the "eeeeuw, you use Peters edition? eeh, have you told your teacher that you use that?" or even better "SCHNABEL FOR BEETHOVEN?!! Omg, he said so many things that Beethoven didn't mean!" .. the quy in question is 18. Gotta love that age.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I grew up with reverse snobs.  Most kids in public schools are like that... anything sounding like 'classical' or 'piano' is "totally gay", and rock music or ' the new hot 89.9' (the crappy radio station that only really plays Rihanna) is what music is all about.

Wouldn't that just make them mainstream music snobs?


Oh no, I'm correcting you on which snob is which!

Am I a snob snob?

[ajspiano]

I grew up with reverse snobs.  Most kids in public schools are like that... anything sounding like 'classical' or 'piano' is "totally gay", and rock music or ' the new hot 89.9' (the crappy radio station that only really plays Rihanna) is what music is all about.

When I was in high school there was a girl who asserted music without lyrics was meaningless and boring, - that was why the radio was better than classical music..

I wondered why she didn't just listen to poetry readings..

[j_menz]

Am I a snob snob?

Welcome to the club. Your membership badge is in the post. 

[ajspiano]

Welcome to the club. Your membership badge is in the post. 

I'm from a different branch of the club..  you can think of me as a snob snob, snob.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Welcome to the club. Your membership badge is in the post. 

The only club(s) I would want to be a part of is the Rachmaninoff and/or Scriabin club!  Maybe the Valentina Lisitsa and Horowitz club as well.

But one thing is for sure: I am a Rachmaninoff/Scriabin snob and is proud of it!

[j_menz]

The only club(s) I would want to be a part of is the Rachmaninoff and/or Scriabin club!  Maybe the Valentina Lisitsa and Horowitz club as well.

But one thing is for sure: I am a Rachmaninoff/Scriabin snob and is proud of it!

https://www.rachmaninoff.org/home/home.php

https://www.scriabinsociety.com/


Your love only seems to have a facebook group, but I'm reluctant to post the link given there must be a restraining order on you by now. 

[chadbrochill17]

The only club(s) I would want to be a part of is the Rachmaninoff and/or Scriabin club!  Maybe the Valentina Lisitsa and Horowitz club as well.

But one thing is for sure: I am a Rachmaninoff/Scriabin snob and is proud of it!

From all of your posts I've seen I'm going to guess the person you marry is going to love the obsession you're going to have for her, considering you've professed love for dead people.

[ajspiano]

But one thing is for sure: I am a Rachmaninoff/Scriabin snob and is proud of it!

[j_menz]

The only club(s) I would want to be a part of is the Rachmaninoff and/or Scriabin club! 

Surely also the Nikolai Zverev club as well.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Hhahahahahaahah lol!

[davidjosepha]

Disclaimer:The music in which I will be referring is not included in the context of this forum,I have no purpose of hating on this particular genre of music nor it's followers,all rights reserved.

One day I was contacted by a guitarist and a singer who wanted me to play with them on a so called "jazz bar" and do some improvs and a couple of their songs for some cash so I went to their studio to do some *jammin'*.I was never fascinated about *black music* but I could use the cash so I accepted.The following evening I went there to meet them and we started the improvs.The guitarist said "Guys the main idea for this one is b- pentatonic"
           Me:*Um excuse me Sir* What is pentatonic?
           Him:You don't know the pentatonic blues scales?
           Me:Nope
           Him:How's that?? I thought you were a true musician,pentatonic scales are the most  important scales in music.We can't just show up and play *betoven* and *tsopin*
           Me:I think it doesn't provide enough variety.
           Him:Oh come on man your killing mah vibe here...We are true musicians and we must show the black roots of the music we're playing.Pentatonics are what the black men played through their struggle.We have to show that mang!:@
           Me:Well I don't think it's easy to show it,we're all white(trolled)
                 Anyway How about we improvise on a major(or minor) scale so that I can follow?
           Him:What's major?

Well, to be fair, pentatonic is the most important for most rock/blues improv, although a lot of that is still ridiculous...

[49410enrique]

But one thing is for sure: I am a Rachmaninoff/Scriabin snob and is proud of it!

and i'm snobbier than thou art because i like Roy Agnew, the "Australian Scriabin"  i are proud to it as wells  

i.e. ......

[lostinidlewonder]

It is easy to mix up snobbery/arrogance with self confidence. When someone can do something without problems where others find great difficulty you do develop a great sense of self confidence. But when it comes to observing other people I think if you find it important enough to point out their mistakes to make yourself feel better it says a great deal about yourself and how you treat your own mistakes.

Snobbery usually comes from ones belief and the great importance they place in their sense of superiority (usually it is a belief of "insider" knowledge that everyone else is missing). I find in the arts some admire one person a great deal and that becomes the litmus paper for everything else, if you do not fit this "little box" they have mentally created you are much lesser. This is a sad, close minded way to look at art and says a lot about their ability to appreciate all the beauty of art!

To say one person is not as good as "so and so" is really annoying to me but you hear it all the time. Art is not mathematics, there is no set correct solution and yet you get people believing there is an unchanging formula that needs to be followed (which usually is simply their opinion as to who they think is better even with all the "evidence" they will have to prove it to you!).

As a music teacher helping students I will of course encourage them towards what is better than what they are currently producing. However I do not force them into my vision of what is the best, you guide them in a correct direction and they find their own voice. Often I find myself saying things along the lines of "This is good, but is there better?" and avoid saying "This is no good you can do much better". Both are close but very different. Putting question to things is not snobbery or arrogance (but can easily fall into it), but ramming your opinion as if it where the only truthful statement in existence always is.

I find some students do not know what is better when it is shown to them, just like you might have people say someone is great but you believe they are not so great. Is it really our duty to shown them that we think they are mistaken? It is important to make them aware that they could question it if it interests them. If there is no interest in questioning it why do we bother to change their mind over it? That irritates them more than being any form of help/education.

[ted]

Personal preference cannot be debated, whatever universal qualities either party of contradictory opinion might ascribe to a given music. We either like and enjoy something or we do not. Because somebody is considered a genius, or famous, does not imply I am somehow morally bound to pay attention to his music. However there are those musicians and listeners, frighteningly numerous, whose musical scope, in both playing and listening, appears circumscribed by what others think they ought to appreciate, rather than guided by the sounds they privately enjoy. This all too common process is, I assume, what you mean by musical snobbery.

I do not mix with musicians very frequently but at a recent piano party I played Waller's Blue Black Bottom on my friend's Fazioli. I was told, one assumes in all seriousness, by another guest, that it was "sacrilege" to play this music on such a fine piano. Now if he had remarked negatively about the piece itself or the way I played it, I would have readily understood; personal opinion is always fine. As it was, his remark made no pragmatic sense at all. This is usually the case with what might be called the socially conscious listener, rather than with my preferred naive responder to sound.

Such experience leads me to think that musical snobbery has nothing at all to do with the actual sound and its effect but more to do with how someone perceives himself in the eyes of others. Pitiable waste of energy really.

[outin]

Personal preference cannot be debated, whatever universal qualities either party of contradictory opinion might ascribe to a given music. We either like and enjoy something or we do not. Because somebody is considered a genius, or famous, does not imply I am somehow morally bound to pay attention to his music.

So well said! I guess it's good that I do not have to deal with any classical snobs, since for me music can hardly get more boring than Beethoven or Bach and Mozart is simply annoying. I am sure it's all fine music and they were genious but until I get demented I don't think I'll try to play them again. There are so many other composers that I enjoy.

It is true that some great music requires more time to actually get into completely, but there at least has to be something to get your attention in the first place. I see no point in trying to learn to like something unless your are a professional and it's a must.