Romney or Obama?

[williampiano]

For those who follow U.S. politics, who do you support for the 2012 presidential election?

[fftransform]

Obama is fairly awful, but Romney is an outright-lunatic.  Kucinich/Sanders 2016

[49410enrique]

you should call him. maybe.

[starstruck5]

All politicians are lunatics -you only have to look at the stupid laws they make.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

My friends family member is a politian.  He said that at first, you really try to care about the greater good and you try to make life easier for people.  But after a while, all you care about is getting money. 

[iansinclair]

Oh please folks.  Can't we keep politics out at least one forum?

[pts1]

Obama is a disaster, IMO.
I don't think it has to be a progressive or liberal trait to "go deep into debt", but Obama has spent more tax payer money we didn't have then all presidents put together before him
(Clinton, by contrast left office with a nice surplus).

Now, in spite of Obama's promises that "no one making $250K or less will pay one dime in more tax," he has just created a huge, huge tax increase that will mostly be borne by the middle class, which would include music teachers.

I believe there are 21 new taxes in the Obamacare law and 1 punitive tax if you don't or can't buy health insurance.

Obamacare is NOT a tax on the rich i.e. the 1% as he calls them... it is a tax on the un-rich, which is a direct reversal from what he promised.

He clearly has no plan for jobs or getting out of the debt he has largely created, and would like to create more.

He seems to have no leadership.

And for those who make excuses for him by saying "What about Bush," I say this:

The President is the Captain of our Ship of State, and it is his watch, not the former "captain's". Each President inherits the situation he gets at the time he takes office -- period. It can be no other way.

A real leader would "play the hand he's given".

Most voters according to Gallup Poll, as I recall, think the country is headed in the "wrong" direction. This is on Captain Obama's watch.

If you want the course to be different, we need a different President, and there is only one other candidate with a chance.

If you like our direction, vote Obama. If you don't, vote Romney.

[oxy60]

So what exactly has the big O done that deserves our vote?

[49410enrique]

So what exactly has the big O done that deserves our vote?

omg where do i start!? the gigantic explosions, the incredible big robot guns. man, i love that thing! it is one of my favs of all time

[oxy60]

Based on that he should get our vote. However your super hero is pure white!

Does that mean you support the white guy?

BTW what super powers does your super hero have? (I really should know this but I can't find a parking place at the convention center and there are no more tickets.)

[fftransform]

You seem like the kind of guy who does better with pictures.

I don't think it has to be a progressive or liberal trait to "go deep into debt", but Obama has spent more tax payer money we didn't have then all presidents put together before him
(Clinton, by contrast left office with a nice surplus).

Credit Forbes: Not exactly a liberal think tank . . .


Credit CRB: A bunch of actuaries, mathematical economists and statisticians.


Credit CBO


Credit Bureau of Labor Statistics

Now, in spite of Obama's promises that "no one making $250K or less will pay one dime in more tax," he has just created a huge, huge tax increase that will mostly be borne by the middle class, which would include music teachers.

Source that.

Just kidding, you can't.  Because you just lied.  And of course, as opposed to Romney?
https://www.barackobama.com/news/entry/romneys-tax-plan-by-the-numbers

I believe there are 21 new taxes in the Obamacare law and 1 punitive tax if you don't or can't buy health insurance.

Source that.

(Same as above)  Romney raised taxes 43 times as governor of MA.  More than 21!  You want to know where you got the specific number "21"?

President Obama has enacted 21 tax cuts for the middle class.  Irony is a pregnant dog.

Obamacare is NOT a tax on the rich i.e. the 1% as he calls them... it is a tax on the un-rich, which is a direct reversal from what he promised.

Source that.

(Same as above: he never called it a "tax on the rich")

He clearly has no plan for jobs or getting out of the debt he has largely created, and would like to create more.

Do you live under a rock?  Obama has been pushing for his jobs bill since December; the Republicans in the house won't even bring it to a vote.  However, they have attempted to repeal Obamacare 33 times and counting (which is of course futile), at the cost of approximately 592,000 dollars per day (source: CRS).  72 votes on abortion.

Again, as opposed to Romney?  We don't know just how many jobs he created at Bain, but we definitely know how well he did as governor: 47th out of 50.

He seems to have no leadership.

The Republican-led House seems to be blocking that.  Obama's current approval rating:
https://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/barack-obama-presidential-job-approval.aspx

Congress':
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html

And for those who make excuses for him by saying "What about Bush," I say this:
A real leader would "play the hand he's given".

A real psycho would expect Obama to be able to completely fix the economy in four years after the worst financial crisis since the great depression, with the country in huge debt and busy in two wars, by far the primary cause of spending for the Obama administration.

A common misconception by Republicans is that TARP was expensive.  What's misunderstood is that almost all of TARP was loans.  The total cost of TARP is down to approximately 25 billion, now (source, CBO: another very right-leaning institution).  To repeal Obamacare will cost an estimated 1.3 trillion dollars: Now who looks like they want to be a big spender?

Most voters according to Gallup Poll, as I recall, think the country is headed in the "wrong" direction. This is on Captain Obama's watch.

Correct.  But his current score is also higher than Bush's was since 2005.

If you want the course to be different, we need a different President, and there is only one other candidate with a chance.

Nope.  We need a different congress.


Regarding Romney, it doesn't bother you that he has undisclosed Swiss and Cayman Islands bank accounts, potentially committed a felony by lying about working with Bain between 1999-2002 (although not by dodging the draft, which he did quite coolly), received a tax rebate for a horse valued at more than you probably make per year, sold another horse for 125k - more specifically, a lame horse which he had injected with pain killers before showing to the seller, and was subsequently successfully sued over -, has the top 8 campaign donors of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, Kirkland & Ellis, Wells Fargo and Barclays, won't support the Equal Pay for Women bill and wants to permanently extend the Bush Estate Tax Cuts?  Not to mention the who dog-tied-to-roof fiasco, much less the homosexual boy he slammed onto the ground and whose hair he cut, an incident that he "doesn't remember," but also somehow specifically remembers "not knowing he was gay."  Although that's somehow less creepy than the whole him-impersonating-a-police-officer thing.  This is a man who called the NAACP a group of people who "want free stuff," wants to reduce the minimum wage, wants to let employers be able to fire people for being homosexual, considers corporations to be people, who "isn't concerned about the very poor [because] there's a safety net there," whose Entitlement Society Tax Plan produces average tax savings of $146,000 a year for a person making over a million dollars, as opposed to $138 for somebody making the average wage?  This is somebody who is either so stupid or so desperate for votes that he alleges not to believe in man-made global warming or evolution, and hasn't exactly distanced himself from the Birther movement.  He has changed sides on every issue under the sun; most recently, the turn-around on whether the Obamacare penalty is a tax was three days, although this isn't his record: he switched from wanting to increase the minimum wage to wanting to reduce it less than 24 hours.  This is a person who refuses to release his tax records - surely because those accounts in Bermuda, the Caymans and Switzerland are totally legal, not to mention whatever the hell Anne Romney has been up to.  This is a person whose religion requires him to wear magic underwear that are supposed to be able to make him invincible to poison, fire and knives.  This is a person who, as governor of Massechusetts, payed Citigroup $160,000 a month to run electronic EBT and outsourced the call center to India.  This does not worry you?  It should.


But seriously, what, exactly, would be needed to change your vote?  For everything I just said to be true?  Because it is.  If you want to challenge the veracity of any statements I have made, feel free to do so.  I can source them all.  It will just make you look, well . . . ignorant!  And if that's not enough to change your vote, then you're either greedy or think voting for Romney will help you get rich enough to bother being greedy.

[albertus_magnus]

Wow! From all those graphics, I do not know Obama was such a great president.  

[oxy60]

Maybe we're lucky to have him but there are still a lot of people out of work. And the Mexicans going back to Mexico. Remember the biggest blow the rich suffered was under Regan when he killed off the silent partners with the box on schedule "C."

[albertus_magnus]

Ten reasons not to vote for Obama.


1. Individual mandate

Obamacare may have been upheld as constitutional by the Supreme Court, but Chief Justice John Roberts’ extraordinary opinion clearly labeled the law’s individual mandate a tax. Whether the power to enact a penalty for failing to purchase a product derives from the Commerce Clause or Congress’ taxing authority makes little difference. Every American will have to purchase health insurance and those who don’t will face an IRS-enforced tax that totals 2.5 percent of adjusted growth income in 2016.

2. Employer mandate

At a time when America needs jobs more than anything else, along comes Obamacare and its tax on businesses that don’t offer healthcare benefits. Companies with more than 50 employees will have to pay a tax of $3,000 per employee, a sure-fire way to keep companies from hiring new workers. Perversely, this measure will also encourage some employers to drop their health coverage and pay a fine that costs less. In both cases, the measure works against many vulnerable Americans.

3. Investment income surtax

If you make more than $200,000 ($250,000 if married), then you are rich and will be paying for the healthcare of the less fortunate. Obamacare will levy a new 3.8 percent surtax on investment income on those earners. If the Bush tax cuts are not rescinded, another added tax will be added to the same people on the same income and the top rate on dividend income from will hit 43.4 percent— a good reason to invest elsewhere.

4. Limit raised on medical tax deductions

Currently people who have high medical expenses can get a tax break on the amount over 7.5 percent of their adjusted gross income when they itemize deductions. Obamacare will raise the threshold to 10 percent, socking those with medical emergencies with an extra cost just when they are least prepared to handle it.

5. Tax on charitable hospitals

Obamacare levies a $50,000 excise tax on charitable hospitals that fail to meet an array of Health and Human Services regulations, including new standards in assessing community health needs and financial assistance requirements. In what universe does this make sense? Here we have the federal government heaping new rules under threat of financial penalty onto entities that function to help others.

6. Capping Flexible Spending Accounts

By capping the amount of money that can be used in a flexible spending account, Obamacare essentially levies a tax on families with ‘special -needs children.’ The new annual cap of $2,500 doesn’t come close to cover the amount that it costs for families to care and educate society’s most vulnerable members. Oh, but at least the measure will send an addition $13 billion to Washington.

7. Tax on Cadillac plans

In Obamaland, one size fits all when it comes to healthcare. Under Obamacare, people who have “Cadillac” health plans will be hit with a new excise tax. People paying $10,200 ($27,500 for families) a year in insurance premiums will get hit with a 40 percent tax hike, which will, over time, will reduce the number of top-end plans. But at least Uncle Sam will get another $32 billion in revenue.

8. Medical device tax

Obamacare adds a 2.3 percent excise tax on manufacturers of medical-devices. One doesn’t need to be an economist to figure out the outcome of this measure: Companies will either stop hiring or will pass on the cost of the life-saving products on to consumers—adding to the burden of those already saddled with high medical costs.

9. Medicare payroll tax

The “rich” will get hit with yet another tax hike—a Medicare payroll tax increase of 0.9 percent of income above $200,000 ($250,000 if married). Even Nancy Pelosi has called out President Obama on taxing those income levels repeatedly, saying that the threshold should be $1 million in income before taxes on the super-rich kick in.

10. Over-the-counter tax

Obamacare will no longer allow money from health savings or flexible spending accounts to purchase non-prescription, over-the counter drugs—a $5 billion tax on people trying to treat their own medical problems. That is just a prescription to steer people to the doctor’s office instead of the pharmacy counter.

[fftransform]

Maybe we're lucky to have him but there are still a lot of people out of work. And the Mexicans going back to Mexico. Remember the biggest blow the rich suffered was under Regan when he killed off the silent partners with the box on schedule "C."

First of all, it's "Reagan," and second of all, that had a super-negligible impact.  It was just a tricky, little loophole that only applied to self-employed individuals, a near-0, miniscule portion of the hyper-wealthy.

[fftransform]

Oh look, another steaming pile of lies and misinformation!  You shouldn't be allowed to vote, frankly, if you're so pathetically ignorant.

1. Individual mandate

Every American will have to purchase health insurance and those who don’t will face an IRS-enforced tax that totals 2.5 percent of adjusted growth income in 2016.

"Gross income," not "growth income."  This should already tell you that whatever site you copy/pasted this off of isn't exactly official.  Maybe official Tea Party garbage.

It's 2.5% above $9,500, if you make over $9,500 a year.  People making less than $46,000 a year basically get free health insurance through subsidies.  The subsidies apply to people making up to $134,000 a year, and this number adjusts to inflation; the penalties will be much more expensive than buying the health insurance.  That's the whole point.  As well, the 2.5% cannot exceed the cost of a typical health care program unsubsidized, so approximately 4k.  The minimum penalty is a tiny $95.

Oh, you also can't be penalized if:
You make less than $9,500 a year
It would cost more than 8% of your income
You can show that it would inflict financial hardship to have to pay it

So basically, you'll only get penalized (at a cost higher than just getting the damned insurance like an American who cares about other Americans would do; whoops, patriotism) if you can definitely afford it.

2. Employer mandate

Companies with more than 50 employees will have to pay a tax of $3,000 per employee, a sure-fire way to keep companies from hiring new workers. Perversely, this measure will also encourage some employers to drop their health coverage and pay a fine that costs less.

$2,000.  Not $3,000.  Only companies with over 100 employees get hit with the 3k.  And the company does not need to fully pay for the employee's health insurance; they just need to offer a discounted health insurance plan.  Wal-Mart and McDonalds do this: do you really think it's such a big deal, if those guys are willing to do it?  Oh, and by the way, the 2010 Affordable Health Care Act (I doubt you even knew its real name . . .) pays for this through subsidies to these businesses.  Unless they have 500+ employees.  I.e. can afford it.

And since when is a business with 50 employees a small business?  It's a pretty high figure, much less 100 or 500.  The logic in your last statement is so completely idiotic I don't even know how to respond, really.  If the company is already offering them health insurance at a cost higher than 3k per person, they're currently not compelled to do so.  They're doing it because they're not greedy fucks, which you apparently would like companies to be allowed to be.  So why would they suddenly just drop it, because a bill that doesn't actually affect them at all - unless they have under 500 employees, in which case they're now getting helped out - is enacted?  It's nonsensical to the point of being vomit.

3. Investment income surtax

If you make more than $200,000 ($250,000 if married), then you are rich and will be paying for the healthcare of the less fortunate. Obamacare will levy a new 3.8 percent surtax on investment income on those earners. If the Bush tax cuts are not rescinded, another added tax will be added to the same people on the same income and the top rate on dividend income from will hit 43.4 percent— a good reason to invest elsewhere.

Lies.  It is being raised from 2.9% to 3.8%, and does not apply to 401K, IRA or Roth-IRA, as well as many other types of investment.  Also, why shouldn't people making 200,000 dollars a year help out a little bit?  Can you actually make the argument that they shouldn't?  The whole premise is ridiculous.  Oh, and you mean "rescinded," not "not rescinded."  Whoever wrote this article doesn't know what "rescinded" means, apparently.  Also, 39.6, not 43.4%.  That number is just made up.  And you basically need to be a millionaire to be taxed at that rate, and at which point you're usually writing everything under the sun off until your effective rate is somewhere around Romney's, last year.  Which was about half of that.

Oh, and when did not paying taxes become patriotic, just as an aside?

4. Limit raised on medical tax deductions

Currently people who have high medical expenses can get a tax break on the amount over 7.5 percent of their adjusted gross income when they itemize deductions. Obamacare will raise the threshold to 10 percent, socking those with medical emergencies with an extra cost just when they are least prepared to handle it.

They'll have health insurance.  So, what's the cost?  Oh right, basically none.

5. Tax on charitable hospitals

Obamacare levies a $50,000 excise tax on charitable hospitals that fail to meet an array of Health and Human Services regulations, including new standards in assessing community health needs and financial assistance requirements.

A flat-out lie:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/reg-130266-11.pdf

Have you read it?  I have.  These "charitable" hospitals will no longer receive a specific government subsidy if they are charging a certain rate/percentage of people for emergency room services.  I.e. if they're not acting as a charity when it comes to the emergency room, then they're not going to be subsidized like a charity, when it comes to the emergency room.  On what planet does that not make sense?

6. Capping Flexible Spending Accounts

By capping the amount of money that can be used in a flexible spending account, Obamacare essentially levies a tax on families with ‘special -needs children.’ The new annual cap of $2,500 doesn’t come close to cover the amount that it costs for families to care and educate society’s most vulnerable members. Oh, but at least the measure will send an addition $13 billion to Washington.

Flex-spend has what, exactly, to do with special needs children?  If you knew what Flex-spend is, you'd realize that this makes no sense.  Also, I like that when Obama is saving money, it's "going to Washington," but when Obama is spending money, it's "adding to the debt."

Anyway, you are a pathetic piece of scum for using, and lying about, special-needs children in this pitiful attempt at manipulation.  The only people who can be fooled by this are people as stupid as you, i.e. a lot of Republicans.  All you've done is shown how stupid your party is, if this trash represents it.  I'm done with this: it should be adequately obvious that it's pretty unlikely anything else in that post has merit.

[albertus_magnus]

Anyway, you are a pathetic piece of scum for using, and lying about, special-needs children in this pitiful attempt at manipulation.  The only people who can be fooled by this are people as stupid as you, i.e. a lot of Republicans.  All you've done is shown how stupid your party is, if this trash represents it.  I'm done with this: it should be adequately obvious that it's pretty unlikely anything else in that post has merit.

You forgot to call me a racist.  I am never surprised when one confronts a Democrat with the truth. It always comes down to ad hominem attacks.

[fftransform]

You forgot to call me a racist.  I am never surprised when one confronts a Democrat with the truth. It always comes down to ad hominem attacks.

I literally cited the IRS and proved that you were lying in a number of cases.  Which of my statements do you consider to be untruthful?  I can prove them all.  You're the one who has been confronted, quite forcefully, with the truth.

Seriously, I fully challenge you to declare a single statement that I made to be untruthful; I made many, many, many claims to the lack of truth in what you said and/or how misleading it is.  Which of my challenges are false, then?  As I said to the other person, it will only be a testament to your ignorance if you do.  I also eagerly await any defense whatsoever of the statements regarding special-needs children.

You can't say that you've confronted me with the "truth" when I can prove that most of what you said is the exact opposite.  And excuse me, but you're in the following situation:

A- you either believe the crap you posted and are thus totally ignorant.  Therefore you are nothing but an ultracrepidarian and are morally in the wrong for your attempt to appear as something other than such, and/or

B- you are aware that most of what you posted is illogical, false and/or misleading, and are thus manipulative and deceptive.

But I'll admit that I did make one error.  When I said that Romney's effective tax rate was about half of what it should have been, due to write-offs, I had the numbers mixed up.  I was thinking it was 19.3%, because that at least makes some sense.  He actually got away with paying 13.9%.  So make that more like a third.

In either case, you deserve to be called pretty much whatever I can come up with, now don't you?  In the mean time, since I've torn up your objections to Obama, please feel free to address some of my criticisms of Romney.  Do you want to say that any of these aren't the truth?

Regarding Romney, it doesn't bother you that he has undisclosed Swiss, Bermudan and Cayman Islands bank accounts, potentially committed a felony by lying about working with Bain between 1999-2002 (although not by dodging the draft, which he did quite coolly), received a tax rebate for a horse valued at more than you probably make per year, sold another horse for 125k - more specifically, a lame horse which he had injected with pain killers before showing to the seller, and was subsequently successfully sued over -, has the top 8 campaign donors of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, Kirkland & Ellis, Wells Fargo and Barclays, won't support the Equal Pay for Women bill and wants to permanently extend the Bush Estate Tax Cuts?  Not to mention the whole dog-tied-to-roof fiasco, much less the homosexual boy he slammed onto the ground and whose hair he cut, an incident that he "doesn't remember," but also somehow specifically remembers "not knowing he was gay."  Although that's somehow less creepy than the whole him-impersonating-a-police-officer thing.  This is a man who called the NAACP a group of people who "want free stuff," wants to reduce the minimum wage, wants to let employers be able to fire people for being homosexual, considers corporations to be people, who "isn't concerned about the very poor [because] there's a safety net there," whose Entitlement Society Tax Plan produces average tax savings of $146,000 a year for a person making over a million dollars, as opposed to $138 for somebody making the average wage?  This is somebody who is either so stupid or so desperate for votes that he alleges not to believe in man-made global warming or evolution, and hasn't exactly distanced himself from the Birther movement.  He has changed sides on every issue under the sun; most recently, the turn-around on whether the Obamacare penalty is a tax was three days, although this isn't his record: he switched from wanting to increase the minimum wage to wanting to reduce it less than 24 hours.  This is a person who refuses to release his tax records - surely because those accounts in Bermuda, the Caymans and Switzerland are totally legal, as is however the hell he got $100,000,000.00 into an IRA (which if you know anything about IRA's should be legally impossible) not to mention whatever the hell Anne Romney has been up to; he also won't release the donor list for his Super PACs.  This is a person whose religion requires him to wear magic underwear that are supposed to be able to make him invincible to poison, fire and knives.  This is a person who, as governor of Massechusetts, payed Citigroup $160,000 a month to run electronic EBT and outsourced the call center to India.  This does not worry you?  It should.

Oh, and are you in the Tea Party?  Then you're more likely to be a racist than the average American, yes.  No, seriously man, let me know if you honestly want to challenge any of my statements.

[49410enrique]

Based on that he should get our vote. However your super hero is pure white!

Does that mean you support the white guy?

BTW what super powers does your super hero have? (I really should know this but I can't find a parking place at the convention center and there are no more tickets.)

lol i know right? comic con 2012 sold out in about 90 minutes! pretty incredible.

i didn't think he was white, i figuired Japanese. so maybe i'm i support 'other' instead of the white guy or the black guy.

i guess he could just summon the big o and pick up and stack cars on top of each other clear more spaces.

i think reducing politics to the basics helps us really focus on what matters. how cool is the candidates giant robot? can he help me find parking? yep.

[fftransform]

Romney facts of the day:

is currently heavily invested in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, despite calls on the campaign stump to take them down.

Stanford Financial Group successfully busted for 2nd-largest Ponzi Scheme in America.  After they were prosecuted, Romney starts the business Solamere, with them and his son Tagg at the helm.

Wants to primarily dismantle the EPA: could not name a single provision of the EPA.