Learning to improvise

[jontah]

Hi!

This is my new post here, I feel like I got alot to achieve from this forum.

I'm a past student of a music school. I just took a course in a school (for 1 year) about music production, a VERY VERY expensive course (around 80.000Euro).

We got to learn abit piano and music theory etc. So I have the basics in my bagage now.

What do I know about music theory?

I know about all major and minor scales. I know about chord progressions such as I IV V VI etc.

I know about how to change the key of a song in a smooth way. I know how to play sus2, sus4 and 7 chords and some add9 chords aswell.

What should I be practicing more in music theory? I'm kind of stuck.. I want to keep evolving from here. I got loads of music theory books and piano books.

What is my goal?

I'm an electronic music producer and I'd like to make really sweet chords, melodies and just be able to REALLY express myself on the piano. Not only for electronic music productions, but for songwriting and production of other tunes aswell. I just want to be able to express and feel that I really can handle music and come up with some amazing stuff just by playing the piano and build a song and take it from there.

I know how to make easy stuff such as 4 chord progressions and then add a melody ontop in the program that I'm working in.

But, I feel like I need to evolve in both finger techniques, dynamics and emotion aswell as coloring my chords more.

I just want to feel a natural flow when playing and now getting stuck.

What I'm looking to teach myself is to improvise in ANY scale. Beginning with the C major scale. I already know how to improvise abit in this scale with the chords etc. What I think I don't really understand is to know what tones that goes well together with the chords, except for tones that the chords consists of, if you get what I mean?

So. I need some help here. I feel like I'm really stuck. I've read so much on internet, watched TONS and TONS of youtube clips over a 12months period now, I always try to check out new stuff and tutorials to keep new ideas flowing and hopefully get some inspiration from there.

But this doesn't seem to be enough for me. I know the basics, I just gotta step it up from here and involve some dynamics and finger techniques.

I even took alot of piano lessons and it costed me a heck alot of money, the fact is, I'm getting more out of it by just practicing myself.

The problem I have is I DON'T KNOW WHAT to practice on.

I wonder if you guys could help me out?

What's the best way to practice improvisation on the piano?

I really hate learning new songs, I just want to compose stuff myself. I know that you learn alot of playing existing songs, seeing patterns and taking it from there.

But there must be some other way? I just want to compose my own stuff and focus on doing so.

I'd highly appreciate the help, tips, tricks, suggestions, ANYTHING. I'm getting really frustrated about this whole things. Composing music is one of my highest dreams and I spend literally 14hours each day in the studio. Imagine if I could play the piano for that time, I'd be a pro.

Oh yeah, I got all time in the world to play the piano, wether it be 15min, 3 hours or 14hours. I'm really willing to do this. It's one of my highest dreams to learn.

My goal right now is to get to this level right here and get to play like this guy:

But instead of playing existing songs, I'd like to play my own songs. And it's all based on 4 chords as I understand it here.. so it can't be THAT difficult, can it?

Again, really appreciating the answers. Thanks ALOT!

Best,

J

[quiescen]

Hi Jontah. Improvisation? Best accomplished when the player remains in the present. Four chords? I can show you how to do it with just two. I've got a free lesson that might help you at https://www.quiescencemusic.com

[jontah]

Hi Jontah. Improvisation? Best accomplished when the player remains in the present. Four chords? I can show you how to do it with just two. I've got a free lesson that might help you at https://www.quiescencemusic.com

Hi.. I've been buying several piano courses online and I've put out alot of money for this. Every site guarantees that you're going to learn etc. Never worked for me :/

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This is a really vast topic.

As fairly basic suggestions:

Initially - learn how to harmonise a simple melody using different chord sequences (not just I IV V chords). You would be surprised at how many convincing ways there are to harmonise even a descending scale. Learn how to use (in particular) diminished chords for modulations. Learn how to incorporate chromatic notes (ones which are not native to the key signature) convincingly into the harmony: using them as dissonances to be resolved (often up or down a semitone) can be interesting and add colour.

Secondly - practice regular patterns like scales and arpeggios diligently until they become second nature and you have the fluency to apply them over chordal patterns as ornamentation.

Thirdly (this may require more theoretical knowledge than you currently have, but even so it might be valuable). Listen to styles of classical music from different eras and try to identify stylistic facets which identify them as being of a specific vintage (e.g. Alberti basses, Rachmaninovian harmony, etc). Then try to incorporate those facets into your improvisations in order to impersonate that style. It can be an interesting exercise for an improviser to improvise pseudo-Bach, then pseudo-Mozart, etc. Listening analytically rather than passively can enable you to pick up ideas which you then use (learning by imitation).

I've really only scratched the surface here and hope other improvisers on the forum may have further suggestions.

[jontah]

This is a really vast topic.

As fairly basic suggestions:

Initially - learn how to harmonise a simple melody using different chord sequences (not just I IV V chords). You would be surprised at how many convincing ways there are to harmonise even a descending scale. Learn how to use (in particular) diminished chords for modulations. Learn how to incorporate chromatic notes (ones which are not native to the key signature) convincingly into the harmony: using them as dissonances to be resolved (often up or down a semitone) can be interesting and add colour.

Secondly - practice regular patterns like scales and arpeggios diligently until they become second nature and you have the fluency to apply them over chordal patterns as ornamentation.

Thirdly (this may require more theoretical knowledge than you currently have, but even so it might be valuable). Listen to styles of classical music from different eras and try to identify stylistic facets which identify them as being of a specific vintage (e.g. Alberti basses, Rachmaninovian harmony, etc). Then try to incorporate those facets into your improvisations in order to impersonate that style. It can be an interesting exercise for an improviser to improvise pseudo-Bach, then pseudo-Mozart, etc. Listening analytically rather than passively can enable you to pick up ideas which you then use (learning by imitation).

I've really only scratched the surface here and hope other improvisers on the forum may have further suggestions.

This is some great suggestions! I thank you alot for that.

The problem with me, is that I don't even know WHERE to begin, I don't know where to get all this information from!

I've been practicing minor and major scales, what more scales should I be practicing? there are alot of scales. I've never liked diminished chords, how do I learn more about them and how to integrate them into my playstyle by using them as modulations?

Anyways, where can I learn more about harmony rather than the normal chords such as I IV V VI (the typical newbie normal chords)

Isn't add9, sus2, sus4 etc part of modulation?

I'm not saying I know alot, I just know a little bit on the way.. I guess it's, atleast a good starting point?

Also I'm really unsure on WHEN to use these add0, sus2, sus4 modulations.

Do any of you guys have any recommendations of homepage where I can look it up on or a specific youtube video guy or something? because what I find really booring is reading books, never liked reading books at all, I tend to take all from internet instead or type and even read on the computer. Don't know why, I guess it's a generation thing..

Again, I thank you alot for the answer. It's such an inspiration to hear things from other piano players. I'm really loving this instrument! I just wish to really express myself on it. And I'm willing to work hard and put alot of time and dedication down to it.

[hfmadopter]

This is some great suggestions! I thank you alot for that.

The problem with me, is that I don't even know WHERE to begin, I don't know where to get all this information from!

I've been practicing minor and major scales, what more scales should I be practicing? there are alot of scales. I've never liked diminished chords, how do I learn more about them and how to integrate them into my playstyle by using them as modulations?

Anyways, where can I learn more about harmony rather than the normal chords such as I IV V VI (the typical newbie normal chords)

Isn't add9, sus2, sus4 etc part of modulation?

I'm not saying I know alot, I just know a little bit on the way.. I guess it's, atleast a good starting point?

Also I'm really unsure on WHEN to use these add0, sus2, sus4 modulations.

Do any of you guys have any recommendations of homepage where I can look it up on or a specific youtube video guy or something? because what I find really booring is reading books, never liked reading books at all, I tend to take all from internet instead or type and even read on the computer. Don't know why, I guess it's a generation thing..

Again, I thank you alot for the answer. It's such an inspiration to hear things from other piano players. I'm really loving this instrument! I just wish to really express myself on it. And I'm willing to work hard and put alot of time and dedication down to it.

Modulation will help you improvise and Dim7 cords are one way to help you modulate. You can modulate to another key signature for instance. The dissonance of the dimished cords are like a stepping stone to get to another place, be that key ( especially key) or different form of melody line.

As mentioned already, you can give your music a Bach feel or Mozart feel , you can also change to a calypso feel, western or eastern feel through improvising. Some of this is done through open cording, some through rythm and key changes. The Dim7 cords are a valuable tool to that end. Learning some of them and how they bridge from where you are to where you want to be is a good starting place for you.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I would suggest that for classical piano, you really only need to know standard major scales, harmonic and melodic minor, and chromatic scales (which I forgot to mention). It's been my experience that, whilst guitarists know the difference between Phrygian/Lydian/Mixolydian etc modes/scales, pianists just don't need to.

With add/sus modulations, the note which is not part of the chord produces harmonic tension, which usually needs to be resolved. This is often done by moving part of the chord by one step, and this can produce a modulation, for example with CEGD' by moving the CE to BD you have a first inversion of the G major tonic chord, or by moving the CG to BG# you have the second inversion of E maj 7 (in practice this is likely to be the V7 chord of A min). Diminished (and augmented) chords are even more flexible modulatory tools, because taken on their own they are completely harmonically ambiguous and only obtain any tonality due to the context in which they are placed. For example, CD#F#A (a chord which can easily follow the C maj tonic chord) moving C to B is E maj V7; moving D# to D is G maj V7 third inversion; moving F# to F is Bb maj V7 second inversion; moving A to G# is C# maj V7 first inversion. Not all of those modulations are completely convincing (though they can be improved by dressing them up with ornaments and using them as the underlying harmonic pattern) but that should give some idea of the varied power of a diminished chord.

[gearmenta]

I suggest that you learn classical piano, if you're love is composing study Bach, mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, rachmaninoff, ravel and Scriabin. Listen to them, and discover what harmonies and sounds you want to produce, whether is the simplicity and playfulness of Mozart, or the sheer sensuality and power of rachmaninoff. Composers learn a great deal from other composers:)

[jontah]

No no, don't get me wrong! I want to compose pop. Right now I don't feel I have the need for making classic tunes. But I generally just want to be able to make to express myself on the keyboard, running piano-drills, being able to play chords that satisfies my ears and are sounding nice (not the booring normal chords), aswell as being able to play arpeggios and strides, improvisation on scales over chords etc. I just don't know where to find the material for getting started with all this.

As mentioned above aswell, I want to become quicker on finger techniques and better at modulations.

But keep in mind I want to be playing only the same key to begin with, I don't need to modulate to other key scales just yet.

Bach and Mozart playings seems very very far away from me right now, maybe in the future, but I'd like to get better at the pop comping first.

So, where do I get started? where do I find a good site or video clips of getting better at this? I've been struggling with youtube for about a year and really trying to search around for everything that I discovered I need to practice on.

[jontah]

EDIT: I've been starting off to practice fingering speed and finger positioning, did this for 3 hours atleast today.. maybe too long?

just doing drills within an octave (from C3 to C4 within the C major scale). And it feels good. I think I've really underestimated getting better at feeling secure on how to press and how to play the tones on the piano.

It feels like 1 step towards the right direction, but I'm still stuck of where I should gather the knowledge about even more advanced chords other than what I know about (sus2, sus4, add9, maj7, 7) and being able to put it down to the keyboard.

I'm wanting to get some really fat chords and being able to apply melodies ontop of that together with dynamics such as breaking these chords, just like I explained in the first post.

The problem for me is that I don't have the material of getting started! I don't know where to look.

Again, thanks alot for the replies so far, it keeps me inspired and willing to focus and continue.

[hfmadopter]

EDIT: I've been starting off to practice fingering speed and finger positioning, did this for 3 hours at least today.. maybe too long?

just doing drills within an octave (from C3 to C4 within the C major scale). And it feels good. I think I've really underestimated getting better at feeling secure on how to press and how to play the tones on the piano.

It feels like 1 step towards the right direction, but I'm still stuck of where I should gather the knowledge about even more advanced chords other than what I know about (sus2, sus4, add9, maj 7, 7) and being able to put it down to the keyboard.

I'm wanting to get some really fat chords and being able to apply melodies on top of that together with dynamics such as breaking these chords, just like I explained in the first post.

The problem for me is that I don't have the material of getting started! I don't know where to look.

A teacher who teaches improvising  is your best source. I took a course that included two books about doing what you want to do almost exactly but I can't imagine working through the course without the teachers guidance. He gave us chapters to accomplish each week. In my case it was an 8 week course ( about at my fifth year of classical study). I'm missing the work book but have the song book that we selected pieces from to do the work on. Plus we picked a song we liked ( each of us something different) found the melody by ear, arranged the music by ear towards the  end of the eight week course. So it wasn't just about working in the books, it was really a crash course in this stuff.

 I'd like to have continued with this teacher but enjoy using what I learned from that course even today. I went back to classical studies when that class was over with, but apply the theory from that class to my popular pieces ( I'm working on a piece right now applying theory from that class to it). I had to travel nearly 40 miles each way for eight weeks to take that class. So maybe look outside your home town for a class or physical help. You can learn a lot from the internet but will advance more quickly if you get hands on help from a credited teacher. I never would have accomplished what I did in 8 weeks by going online ( course then there was no online courses, barely an internet in fact). A structured course sets weekly check points and you work like heck to accomplish them each week !

[ronde_des_sylphes]

For rudiments of harmonic theory, there are online sites like this:
https://music-theory.ascensionsounds.com/four-part-harmony-getting-started/
which seems reasonable. Don't view four part harmony rules as strict musts, especially if you're wanting to write pop, view them as a guide and food for thought.

Re improvising in scales over chords, view the scales as a little bit of ornamentation to give the passage more colour, e.g. making the following progression more interesting 1) CEG in the lh, C in the rh [chord I] 2) BDG in lh, D in rh [chord Vb] by doing a little run up and down the keyboard - 1) CEG in the lh, C, D, E, F, G, F, E in rh coming back to 2) BDG in lh and D in rh.

[hfmadopter]

For rudiments of harmonic theory, there are online sites like this:
https://music-theory.ascensionsounds.com/four-part-harmony-getting-started/
which seems reasonable. Don't view four part harmony rules as strict musts, especially if you're wanting to write pop, view them as a guide and food for thought.

Re improvising in scales over chords, view the scales as a little bit of ornamentation to give the passage more colour, e.g. making the following progression more interesting 1) CEG in the lh, C in the rh [chord I] 2) BDG in lh, D in rh [chord Vb] by doing a little run up and down the keyboard - 1) CEG in the lh, C, D, E, F, G, F, E in rh coming back to 2) BDG in lh and D in rh.

Nice page on harmony, good find ! I use harmony a lot and counter melody some as well when working on show pieces ( I'm working up the theme to Beauty and the Beast right now but have done several of these movie themes or show themes over the years).

Anyway, it's a little unclear if the OP is really after improvising vs embellishing and or just filling out the keyboard. The latter is quite easy just by following the sheet music to a simpler writing of a piece. Break the cord structure down, add some octives and arpeggiated chords, an accent here or there, a little harmony and one can fill out a piece pretty well ( in my class on this we called it fleshing out).  Improvising I've thought of as getting into another level. What is your thought on this ?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Anyway, it's a little unclear if the OP is really after improvising vs embellishing and or just filling out the keyboard. The latter is quite easy just by following the sheet music to a simpler writing of a piece. Break the cord structure down, add some octives and arpeggiated chords, an accent here or there, a little harmony and one can fill out a piece pretty well ( in my class on this we called it fleshing out).  Improvising I've thought of as getting into another level. What is your thought on this ?

I think a bit of both. I can't speak for him but I think using improvisation and embellishment/filling out as separate parts of a compositional process is quite reasonable. In that context, perhaps one can view improvisation as the creative part and filling out as a more technical, editorial part.

[jontah]

To be honest, I don't know myself. Therefore the question may be very fuzzy.. sorry about that!

My english isn't the best either.

Simply, my goal is to create compositions like these:

but my own. I guess there are alot of factors that requires practice to make me able to compose something like that..

I think I got the basis of harmony. I didn't find that homepage useful though, since I knew the most of the harmony basis stuff that was there already..

[ronde_des_sylphes]

One of the things he is doing fairly often is moving from one chord to another using passing notes in the right hand, e.g. Emin chord to Cmaj chord using G in the melody over an E min chord, followed by an F# (which in this case doesn't belong to either chord, but leads naturally to an E over the Cmaj chord).

In addition to this, you might want to think about the interaction between the upper treble note and the bass note and what effect it has. As a crude generalisation, if they move in the same direction simultaneously, that gives the harmonic progression a more static nature, whereas if they move in contrary motion that has a more active feel.

[jontah]

exactly! passing notes! there we have it! along with arpeggios and normal chords, how do I practice on these passing notes?

Thanks alot!!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It's hard to give precise advice without knowing for sure what level you're at (plus I have to give a disclaimer that whilst I'm partly self-taught, I'm not a teacher per se), but I think it's probably relevant to comment that if you are going to use passing notes over the chords, you will normally be playing them with fingers 3,4 or 5. I'm guessing you may find these fingers (especially 4 and 5) to be weaker and/or less flexible than the others. Even a simple exercise like playing ABCCBA with 345543 fingering may be useful in building finger capacity.