New Player on forum, Piano and tendinitis…

[aindavou]

First I like to say I had bad English and if u sees anyone problem with my write say for me (maybe it’s hard to understand). (I trying nothing use translators).
Hello,
I’m from Brazil and had plays Piano by 3 years (2006-2009), in this time plays hard (a lot hours for day) because I really like plays and grow up my tech and performance.
But the tendinitis comes on my both hands and I had to stop play for 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years… Today tendinitis nothing exists, but I unlike to play I thinking it cans come back. No music in my life is very sad. – I have money to buyout a new piano (thinking in an electronic/digital) and thinking a lot to play (But thinking plays anyone more easy and slow, slow…).
Because in my city nobody help me pass this phase on my life, I had pass by all this alone, I come depress (! Nobody: I ingress in school of music and nobody (teachers, “friends”) help me pass by the tendinitis).
 
I come here to talk about tendinitis (and depress in this cases)…
Anyone here pass by this?

I now trying to upload on youtube a video to show u how I play.
What more u can says to me?


Again, sry by my English! (u can help my English, if u can :p )
Im posting here (Student's Corner) because I’m student, think it’s the correct way…

If u have article about tendinits and musicians, or pianists, u can pass to me too. In Portuguese I had difficult to find it.

[hfmadopter]

Play slowly. Do not practice several hours a day when you begin practicing again. Maybe start with 30 minutes a day at first, then work up to an hour. Do not try to do difficult pieces of music at first. You have to build your muscles in the correct way. Finger exercises help this and doing scales helps too. I would suggest that you work on a simple piece of music and scales that compliment that piece. Soon you will be able to play a couple of 30 minute sessions in one day and move on from there without tendonitis.
David

[aindavou]

Thx to the reply the topic, is important to me talk with musicians in this time…
In this video is me playing piano:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

“(It’s me playing piano – in a school music recital – In this time I playing piano by 1 year and 6 moths. (Playing this music approximately 6 moths)”.

After this I play a prelude and fugue (Cm) and a Beethoven sonata op 9 (E). But the records are on a cd and my actual notebook reader nothing cd/dvd. I really hates this sonata because playing her arpeggios I have my firsts problem with tendinitis, and how I was on evaluation to can enter in a high school of music I not stop playing.

Today I see very points I can upgrade and make this piece beautiful. Whether can you explain about how I play and how are the interpretation, go ahead, but have in mind I actually not playing and was just planning a new start to me.

Again, sry by English.



Edit:
I try put how private but my wife says is impossible see video. Actually I don’t like to show others how I play, and how I’m. Because this I'll delete the video or put how private in a week. It’s is to you (forum people) see and have an idea from me.

Edit 2:
My wife says to me put other video I have. This one is I’m playing, too in a recital but in this video i was playing piano by 1 year (my first year on piano). Playing this piece by 7 months or somethingthere.

&feature=youtu.be


If u see something on my playing style which contribute to a tendinitis, Please comment.
I talking with a lot teachers and 2 of these are the opinion that I use too much fingers (phalanx?).

[hfmadopter]

Thx to the reply the topic, is important to me talk with musicians in this time…
In this video is me playing piano:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

“(It’s me playing piano – in a school music recital – In this time I playing piano by 1 year and 6 moths. (Playing this music approximately 6 moths)”.

After this I play a prelude and fugue (Cm) and a Beethoven sonata op 9 (E). But the records are on a cd and my actual notebook reader nothing cd/dvd. I really hates this sonata because playing her arpeggios I have my firsts problem with tendinitis, and how I was on evaluation to can enter in a high school of music I not stop playing.

Today I see very points I can upgrade and make this piece beautiful. Whether can you explain about how I play and how are the interpretation, go ahead, but have in mind I actually not playing and was just planning a new start to me.

Again, sry by English.



Edit:
I try put how private but my wife says is impossible see video. Actually I don’t like to show others how I play, and how I’m. Because this I'll delete the video or put how private in a week. It’s is to you (forum people) see and have an idea from me.

Edit 2:
My wife says to me put other video I have. This one is I’m playing, too in a recital but in this video i was playing piano by 1 year (my first year on piano). Playing this piece by 7 months or somethingthere.

&feature=youtu.be


If u see something on my playing style which contribute to a tendinitis, Please comment.
I talking with a lot teachers and 2 of these are the opinion that I use too much fingers (phalanx?).

I watched the second video. I noticed you dropped your wrists several times below the level of the keys. I have to think this is a tired reaction. Do you feel your hands are too stiff when playing ? In deed on the trills you have a lot of finger work going on , you will find them to go much smoother and easier if you can get your hand to rock a bit, lessening the finger movement. In order to do that your wrists need  be above finger level and relaxed. A qualified teacher could explain this much better than I can ( we have several in these forums), I'm not a teacher but have several years of working with them to teach me how to play the piano.. I can tell you that your wrists should feel fairly relaxed and the weight you put into the keys should come from your forearms. It's natural for people to feel they have to drive their fingers to the key bed but there is another way to get a lot of action into the keys.

Valentina Lisitsa  plays that piece you did in the video and she performs a little wrist ritual before her fingers ever touch the keys. Very loose in the wrists.

Still for your level you did well ! You need some technique taught to you regarding hands and weight etc. Your music has nice emotion in it, you work hard to do the piece but make it sound convincing. I'm not criticizing you, just trying to help. A good teacher would do a better job at that though.

Here is Valantina's version just for comparison, remember that she is a very advanced pianist. Her video is up close, you can see her hand motion well in parts of the video:                                   

[aindavou]

nice video you linked to me. I think (hehe) if I could hear she when I playing I do more beautiful this music. :p beautiful, beautiful…

I have to think this is a tired reaction. Do you feel your hands are too stiff when playing?

I think you are right. Much times, talking with my teacher (in season, 2007-2009), question about these hands rigid, him talk to me get little movements with hands to relax.  But, I don’t remember him talking to not get wrist below keyboard. But I was started Piano in this time, and this is a long time ago.
But yes, I have this problem with shoulder and arms/hands. I sustain my shoulder (unconscious) on 'air' and with time my arms got hardened.
And I don’t know how resolve these problem. I try playing slow and up with metronome, but with time I back to vicious.

and the weight you put into the keys should come from your forearms

I can't understand this. How the forearms can get this? I hear a lot people (and teachers) saying that but I can’t understand.


Thx a lot to try read my bad English and try help. I’m really very grateful  .

[mozart_to_go]

Your wrists are very inflexible.  You're moving your elbows around instead.

[hfmadopter]

nice video you linked to me. I think (hehe) if I could hear she when I playing I do more beautiful this music. :p beautiful, beautiful…

I think you are right. Much times, talking with my teacher (in season, 2007-2009), question about these hands rigid, him talk to me get little movements with hands to relax.  But, I don’t remember him talking to not get wrist below keyboard. But I was started Piano in this time, and this is a long time ago.
But yes, I have this problem with shoulder and arms/hands. I sustain my shoulder (unconscious) on 'air' and with time my arms got hardened.
And I don’t know how resolve these problem. I try playing slow and up with metronome, but with time I back to vicious.
I can't understand this. How the forearms can get this? I hear a lot people (and teachers) saying that but I can’t understand.


Thx a lot to try read my bad English and try help. I’m really very grateful   .

To get the weight from your fore arms to your fingers try an excercise that may help you to understand this. Roll your fingers on a table top, do that by placing your fingernails down on the table top forming a semi fist but relaxed and just push forward lightly with your arm. Your wrist will rise gently and you now are transfering weight from your fore arm to your fingers. You are not individually forcing your fingers down, the  ( just thought I'd mention that, some here claim to be in love with her !).

[aindavou]

Hello, again,
I think it’s a good day to me (hehe), I really think I understand what you mentioned, about weight of forearms. In season I associate weight with gravity, and “the gravity put apple to the down to the ground, because the weight” (understand?).
Can I see you playing?


Enter in this forum was a good idea this week.
Have a topic in this forum about that discussion (technique)?

Your wrists are very inflexible.  You're moving your elbows around instead.

thx by the alert, really !!  


Never have imagined which share a video can be good. Is much fun this discussion!! And be contribut to my motivated to back music life. (I have trouble to write this phrase, I have much trouble with the context the words. Sorry by this, just trying).

[hfmadopter]

Hello, again,
I think it’s a good day to me (hehe), I really think I understand what you mentioned, about weight of forearms. In season I associate weight with gravity, and “the gravity put apple to the down to the ground, because the weight” (understand?).
Can I see you playing?

You won't see me playing any time soon, I'm not recording myself at this point. 30 years ago I did some recordings but no video. I am just getting back to playing after a long time away. When I feel something is worthy of posting a video I just might do that.

I am glad the excercise allows you to see how power of the forearms can be transferred to the fingers. Another thing, my teacher way back when I had one, would try to get me to play with relaxed wrists almost in some cases dangling the fingers. I can't say I ever did that really well but I unsterdand the principle.

I am hoping by the Christmas season to have three pieces of music worthy of my family listening to me play. It's been a long time since I've played, I am back at my piano now almost two months, not quite two months. I am working on my own structure at this point and working to get flow into my music, which means some Bach ( not my favorite thing to be playing but nothing adds structure like Bach) and refreshing my scales and chord work for the pieces I am learning.. Shumann/Lizt work, some Chopin and some popular music.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are many good things in the video- in terms of how the sound comes across. However, what stands out is that it's clear that your conception of how to produce sound is based on pressing from the upper body. This leaves you with no choice but to fix the hand and wrist, in order to transmit the energy- which is way too much effort and strain to be effective in the long run. It's drastically easier if you learn to move from within in the hand itself, rather than fixate it. Bracing something and then shoving it into an impact against the keybed (that involves the momentum the entire arm) makes for substantially more impact than learning to focus movement nearer to the point of contact with the key. This both reduces the energy hitting the keybed and keeps the wrist from getting forced into in any collisions.

This post talks about the background issues:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/theres-hole-in-my-bucket-issues-of.html

EDIT- I just watched the earlier film and you actually move way better in that one. Did someone tell you try to try to play with more arm-weight or something? If so, they've really done more harm than good. I've gotta say that the difference between the two is massive- but that you'd be far better off with the style of movement in the earlier film. The only thing in that one is that you tend to over-relax the fingers after sounding the keys- so the arm ends up bobbing around, or having to work harder not to collapse down. If the fingers just continued to quality of contact- so as to keep a loose wrist completely aligned, rather than wanting to flop down, the style of movement would be pretty good indeed. I don't know what caused it, but the later film looks far less healthy and comfortable.

[chadbrochill17]

I have the same problem. I used to be a member of my high school's crew (rowing) team and I developed tendonitis in both of my wrists. I've noticed that playing for long periods of time definitely ignites the tendonitis, but speed or power doesn't normally do anything. If I'm attempting an Etude, then my wrists tend to flare but that is expected.
I would say to just take it easy if you are nervous about it reemerging. Also, physical therapy, if possible, can do wonders. I try to do stretches now and then but it also depends on how bad yours is.
Best of luck.

[aindavou]

The biggest post I was write, much difficulty. Let’s go…
hfmadopter
I’ll waiting to see you playing. Maybe I can film something to the Christmas too (I hope).

This leaves you with no choice but to fix the hand and wrist,

This both reduces the energy hitting the keybed and keeps the wrist from getting forced into in any collisions.

When pain come and I finally accept it (pain and problems). I went to a doctor him says that have a lot number of factors to do a tendinitis. These two quoted phrase is two factors can contribute to tendinitis.
Another situations which contribute are: not have time appropriate to relax (exemple, after i play piano all day I use computer to play games night). Irregular studies (more time playing than relaxing during day, much hours playing). A fragile body, without good muscles ( ).
But when I back play, I do not know how modify this concept, have an idea? (of which playing with upper body, how is possible change this. Too, how is possible percept this error).

- I just watched the earlier film and you actually move way better in that one. Did someone tell you try to try to play with more arm-weight or something? If so, they've really done more harm than good. I've gotta say that the difference between the two is massive- but that you'd be far better off with the style of movement in the earlier film. The only thing in that one is that you tend to over-relax the fingers after sounding the keys- so the arm ends up bobbing around, or having to work harder not to collapse down. If the fingers just continued to quality of contact- so as to keep a loose wrist completely aligned, rather than wanting to flop down, the style of movement would be pretty good indeed. I don't know what caused it, but the later film looks far less healthy and comfortable.

I need you say to me what is the first movie and the second, it is in the order I put or that you watch? – When you mentioned ‘actually’ I think you are saying about the first movie (1year ans 6moths)
*second movie (1 year playing).
I got what you said (I’ll put here, this links, in order of time I play)
(1 Year):

(1 Year and half):
[ Invalid YouTube link ]

But I play piano 3 Years, and in this videos we can see just 1 year and 6 moths. On the next 1 year and 6 months I played beethoven sonata 9 and Bach prelude fugue Cm (in prelude and arpeggios of first movement of Beethoven I had my first pain (3 months before complete 3 year). But I think all messages here is valid because in the season I never really try modify my posture to play. And these problems quoted can do the tendini appear with time... I really do not know.  

I have the same problem. I used to be a member of my high school's crew (rowing) team and I developed tendonitis in both of my wrists. I've noticed that playing for long periods of time definitely ignites the tendonitis, but speed or power doesn't normally do anything. If I'm attempting an Etude, then my wrists tend to flare but that is expected.
I would say to just take it easy if you are nervous about it reemerging. Also, physical therapy, if possible, can do wonders. I try to do stretches now and then but it also depends on how bad yours is. Best of luck.

I never play after tendinitis. I really don’t know how my body will respond. Just appear tendini to I Selling my piano and stopping music, studies music without piano make me sad.
I actually not do physical therapy, but do this for a long time. For two years I just do exercises (a lot of isometric exercises) to grow muscles, and actually is good how i feel my hands. I practiced academy 6 months after pains gone. And too relax another time.

Today I do nothing, nothing exercises, nothing relax, nothing stretches... With holidays I get vicious on videogames online and play long hours per day (and nothing of pain) - before i can't use computers, had problens too to do the works of high school (how i can write a article if I had pain? and teachers do not comprise me - Or,  reading my text I remember, how I can do studies Gramani rhythm books? (sadness :p ) ).
Thx to share your experience.
However, I’m tired to write in English, is hard to me… After I’ll back here to write about my history and share with you.
 

[nyiregyhazi]

Another situations which contribute are: not have time appropriate to relax (exemple, after i play piano all day I use computer to play games night). Irregular studies (more time playing than relaxing during day, much hours playing). A fragile body, without good muscles ( ).
But when I back play, I do not know how modify this concept, have an idea? (of which playing with upper body, how is possible change this. Too, how is possible percept this error).I need you say to me what is the first movie and the second, it is in the order I put or that you watch? – When you mentioned ‘actually’ I think you are saying about the first movie (1year ans 6moths)
*second movie (1 year playing).

By earlier, I mean earlier in time- the E flat nocturne. Your movement looks way better in that one- without the forceful arm presses. One trick is to practise small groups with the wrist starting very low and drifting up continuously. That way, it's literally impossible to be pressing. If the fingers don't move, neither do the keys. From here, you can evolve to a "floating" feeling- where the fingers are producing the sound without the arm crashing down into them.

I'm writing up some posts on how to move the fingers effectively. Apparently, with the style of movement I've discovered recently, the tendons are barely involved. I think they work the hardest when you fix the hand and crash the arm through.

[j_menz]

Apparently, with the style of movement I've discovered recently, the tendons are barely involved.

 

Gravity would appear to be inadequate, so are you suggesting you've developed psychokinesis? If so, I'm truly impressed.

[nyiregyhazi]

Gravity would appear to be inadequate, so are you suggesting you've developed psychokinesis? If so, I'm truly impressed.

No. Instrinsic muscles. I'm more concerned with the results than the muscles, but I have heard that the specific style of extension movement I use involves intrinsic muscles greatly more. The interosseus muscles serve to open the space between the fingers (pure knuckle actions close it) and apparently they are also more involved in moving the finger, during extension actions- compared to purer pulls from the knuckle.

In any case, the main point is that depending primarily on arm pressure requires greater effort (to stiffen the hand against giving way) than actually moving the fingers- and also causes larger amounts of energy to impact into a dead stop (unless you roll the wrist over the top).  

[mozart_to_go]

In any case, the main point is that depending primarily on arm pressure requires greater effort (to stiffen the hand against giving way)  

With any use of force you will be required to 'stiffen the hand' otherwise it will move back in reaction to the key.   A requirement for the joints to resist is a less emotive way of putting it. 

[nyiregyhazi]

With any use of force you will be required to 'stiffen the hand' otherwise it will move back in reaction to the key.   A requirement for the joints to resist is a less emotive way of putting it. 

 pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/theres-hole-in-my-bucket-issues-of.html

Sorry, but that simply isn't true. The above post explores these issues. It's only true that the hand must be stiff if the finger isn't moving through the line of that reaction. The hand is not only able to relax or stiffen. The fingers have the ability to move. Stiffness vs flaccidty is simply a false dichotomy, that overlooks the simple practical alternative. If the hand has to stiffen, you're also assuming that the arm directly creates the movement for every individual note. Nobody moves their arm enough for that to be an accurate representation of how technique works. The fingers have to create movement anyway- so why stiffen?

[mozart_to_go]

I think talking about 'resistance' may be more sensible.  The hand and fingers must resist the force of the keys.  How you do that is up to you - there are good and bad ways obviously.

I'm afraid I make it a rule not to read blogs - there are just too many.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think talking about 'resistance' may be more sensible.  The hand and fingers must resist the force of the keys.  How you do that is up to you - there are good and bad ways obviously.

I'm afraid I make it a rule not to read blogs - there are just too many.

Sure-but the mindset of achieving that by "stiffening" is truly a world apart from simply moving the finger. The difference in the efforts involved is absolutely substantial. One involves generic tension of muscles against nothing in particular, whereas the other involves specific movement in a very particular path. The similarity between stiffness and well aimed movement is virtually zero. 

[mozart_to_go]

Certainly.  Any type of 'stiffening' as a mindset could be a backward step.  The experience of playing is so different from the reality - and need be kept so.

[nyiregyhazi]

Certainly.  Any type of 'stiffening' as a mindset could be a backward step.  The experience of playing is so different from the reality - and need be kept so.

Why? Stiffness is neither the reality nor the best subjective mind set. I don't see any discrepancy at all. The reality involves moving through resistance rather than clenching. That's exactly how I have to perceive it, for good results.

[mozart_to_go]

I think you'll find the reality is more complex than that.  Some day medical science may take more than a cursory interest but until then we'll just have to rely on transferring our subjective experience and hope it's effective.  Teaching good technique is so difficult!

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you'll find the reality is more complex than that.  Some day medical science may take more than a cursory interest but until then we'll just Rthave to rely on transferring our subjective experience and hope it's effective.  Teaching good technique is so difficult!

Is it complex though? Technique as a whole is. But this is just a simple issue of energy transfer. Either you collapse, you stiffen or you generate movement in the opposite direction to a collapsing finger- eradicating all possibility of collapse with little effort. I cannot overstate how much this realisation has done for my technique. No subjective approach ever came near what this realisation gave me.in fact, arm weight approaches actively held me back from this objective requirement, to avoiding excess tension.

Obviously it still takes fine tuning, but as soon as I understood the only rational alternative to stiffening, the results began to follow. Previously,I was literally attempting the impossible- and continued to have no option but stiffness against reactions.

[mozart_to_go]

You seem obsessed with stiffening and yes, the physiology is extremely complex.

[nyiregyhazi]

You seem obsessed with stiffening and yes, the physiology is extremely complex.

More with understanding what makes it possible NOT to stiffen. I don't know about physiology but the mechanics is simple. Its less effort to move in a productive direction than it is to try to brace against unwanted directions of movement. If you don't get the useful movement you only option is to stiffen.

[mozart_to_go]

Still that word 'stiffen'.  I give up!

[nyiregyhazi]

Still that word 'stiffen'.  I give up!

You think stiffness is fine or something? You don't think it pays to understand how to eliminate the need for it? As I pointed out, if you do not generate useful movement in the right places, the only possible alternative is to stiffen (regardless of what word is chosen to represent that). This is what is seen in the posters films- stiffened hands instead of moving fingers. He needs to eliminate the need to brace/stiffen/fixate (or whatever word is chosen) , in order to deal with his physical problems, or the workload is too great. It doesn't matter how you describe it. A hand that does not create movement during key depression is forced to overwork, in order to resist the reaction that you brought up. When a hand moves well, it cannot be collapsed but the effort is lower.

[nyiregyhazi]

The last post made me smell a rat. A one line response that willfully misinterprets and misrepresents the point that was clearly being made- rather than follow up on it? Nobody else here uses cheap spin like that (especially not in the most transparent contradiction of themself, after having previously claimed stiffness is essential).

Yet again this is the twice banned troll keyboardclass under a new ID...

[aindavou]

By earlier, I mean earlier in time- the E flat nocturne. Your movement looks way better in that one- without the forceful arm presses.

I play 6 months and change professor, because it is much for children’s. The last one teaches me all rest time (2y 6m). With first professor I just play, without posture, dynamic, musicality, and something you can thinking more. When change professor I acquired someone talk about all I need to do. But movements and posture, (I can’t say him do not teach me), maybe, in season I’m not prepared to understand. I don’t know. Or perhaps how you say, maybe it’s me trying doing all the teacher calls, maybe him fail alert my bad movements and, or, made me understand that. Don’t know, really. (I like too much this teacher because I had learning much with him).

That way, it's literally impossible to be pressing.

What is the context of pressing in this phrase? – I think I understand, but maybe not. You said which “that way is impossible do a error”?

Apparently, with the style of movement I've discovered recently, the tendons are barely involved.

Gravity would appear to be inadequate, so are you suggesting you've developed psychokinesis? If so, I'm truly impressed.

A piano teacher (not mine) talking with me said that, “the tendons are barely involved”. But I can't say if she said about all tendons or my inflicted tendons. A lot of people (pianist friends, students of this teacher.) before I left university said to me that “tendons are little involved”.
 

No. Instrinsic muscles. I'm more concerned with the results than the muscles, but I have heard that the specific style of extension movement I use involves intrinsic muscles greatly more. The interosseus muscles serve to open the space between the fingers (pure knuckle actions close it) and apparently they are also more involved in moving the finger, during extension actions- compared to purer pulls from the knuckle.

I have no experience to talk. But I think that is correct. The teacher I talked before said thats one. (I’m trying not doing affirmation, because I can understand wrong what you said).
But same teacher talk to me being concerned with my posture than the sounds, because it can be a way to make sound with facility.

nyiregyhazi
Because my contact with that professor in university (the only person “adopted” and put in classes of her students particular - and help-me suppress my hardest difficulty when tendinitis come), I’m inclined, in this discussion, to agree with you.

I hope I can stop say it, I’m trying talk an English. I just was much preoccupied with my text and on end have laziness to organize. I hope u understand.

[counterpoint]

It's just not possible to discuss hand and finger movement in such a general way.

It depends on the concrete situation: playing a single note, playing a chord, playing a big intervall, slow jump, fast jump, dynamics etc.

It's not possible to play everything without active finger movement, but often finger movement can be replaced by other movements (hand, wrist, arm). And it is a great relief to do this.

[nyiregyhazi]

It's just not possible to discuss hand and finger movement in such a general way.

It depends on the concrete situation: playing a single note, playing a chord, playing a big intervall, slow jump, fast jump, dynamics etc.

It's not possible to play everything without active finger movement, but often finger movement can be replaced by other movements (hand, wrist, arm). And it is a great relief to do this.

I can't agree with the latter- except as a subjective illusion. A finger that is not moving is either collapsing or rigid. Collapse limits both energy transfer into sound and reduces control over the transfer. A rigid hand is no relief. Some people may find a way of keeping the necessary hand movement while thinking about the arm, but a great many don't. The more I succeed in getting my hand moving, the more relief I get- including chords and octaves etc. Fixing the hand to transfer arm pressure is inherently more effort. I think a lot of people assume it's less due to a false rationalisation about the arm 'replacing' the hand, but it's just impossible. If the arm presses, the hand still either has to create movement too or fixate. I think more people limit themself by creating dependence on a stiffened hand than by learning how to move it well.

[nyiregyhazi]

In response to the OP- to thing I was talking about before was when you lightly drift the wrist upwards during a series of sounds. This makes it literally impossible for the arm to be pressing through the fingers.

[counterpoint]

nyiregyhazi, have you ever thought of the possibility to throw the hand and / or fingers?

And another question: how do you play octave tremolos without fixation?

[nyiregyhazi]

nyiregyhazi, have you ever thought of the possibility to throw the hand and / or fingers?

And another question: how do you play octave tremolos without fixation?

I've been putting together some exercises for my next blog post. Try this:

Throw one hand against the palm of the other. Keep the fingers lifeless. Neither brace nor attempt to move. The fingers will be collapsed upon contact. If not you either braced or responded with movement. Relaxed and inactive fingers always give way. Nothing you can do adds an extra option. The fingers can only collapse, move or stiffen.

I'd try the rest of these starting with the fingers touching the other palm- to keep the impact low. Now try stiffening the hand and press your other palm against the fingers. Even if you're seriously stiff, the fingers will likely give way still-unless they reflexively push back through the other palm during contact. Nothing is perfectly stiff, no matter how tense the hand may be. A stiff hand that doesn't respond with movement just collapses less- it doesn't keep its shape. Now start completely passive and relaxed, but lengthen out the fingers as the other palm presses into them. They cannot give way because they are in the middle of moving in the opposite direction. There's no need to start braced. The act of moving is the most effective act of all. Starting with stiffness does not improve on it. The intention at movement through contact is the only effective way not to collapse and stiffness adds nothing. You can be as relaxed as you like or as stiff as you like, but it's only by responding with timed movement that you stop the hand giving way.

It's the same issue in tremolo. Stiff fingers still give way slightly unless they move. It's the movement that's the key to it. Starting stiff is unnecessary- and can actively hinder the ability to make the important movements. The simplest way is to go from loosely relaxed to moving- not from stiffness to movement.

I should just add that I used to depend entirely on rocking the arm through stiff fingers and my tremolos were truly awful. Since I switched to actually moving the fingers, they improved beyond recognition. The arm can still rock, if desired, but the very least the fingers must do is to attempt to move enough to keep their shape. It achieves far more than trying to lock them.

[counterpoint]

So, if this is you

you have an excellent technique and everything would be fine - if you didn't tell people strange theories about not moving the arm and hand. It's exactly what you do and what I am proposing.

[nyiregyhazi]

So, if this is you

you have an excellent technique and everything would be fine - if you didn't tell people strange theories about not moving the arm and hand. It's exactly what you do and what I am proposing.

You miss my point. I said nothing about not moving the arm. I pointed out what the hand and fingers have to continue doing when the arm is utilised, if they are not to be forced into damaging stiffness and fixation.

Also, while I survived the étude, it was no model of technique. There was plenty of stiffness by the end. I need to do a lot of work on getting the hand doing more in that piece- not to brace but to move. Although that piece will always require arm impetus, it needs true hand movement if it is to be done without significant tensions. I have yet to achieve anywhere near enough. You may think the arm movements are the key, but the most useful work I did that on that was based on starting at the key and using pure finger actions to bounce the arm AWAY! The more I cut down dependence on arm pressure and get the fingers moving, the more I reduce the tensions from playing it.

Regardless of how it might appear on the surface, arm pressures don't take the load off the hand in that piece. They force it to work harder to stiffen, when there's not enough movement coming from within the hand and fingers. Without enough of that, the arm only serves to jam the hand into a need to stiffen up.

[aindavou]

Hello ppl,
I like so much talk with you in this topic that I did start. I'm learning much here. I'll open a new topic about other things. But I back here to thank all you and especially the hfmadopter (David) and nyiregyhazi (Andrew), you two help me a lot here and all that this give me good feelings to a new begin. Andrew, I still not have read you blog, but will follow this and read all you written.

Please all you that participated here in this topic find my next and continue help me. I still need help (and I hope I can help someone too, one these hours…).

Thank you.
Rafael

[pts1]

aindayou

I suggest being very careful reading Andrew's writings.

He is very much in his own world with regard to piano technique, and his extreme excessive thinking greatly hinders finding natural ways of solving playing challenges.

He's quite stuck, and if you read back in time, he's virtually in the same place he was years ago, promoting his extremely unnatural "finger extension" method of playing.

He will defend this "poking" technique without hesitation, which he himself cannot use when he plays up to speed.

So be very careful reading him... he "sounds" like he knows what he's talking about, but in practice, his theories do not work since he himself cannot employ them.

Pianists play by finger "flexion" not "extension". A simple fact of nature.

A very strange situation I'd avoid if I were you.

[nyiregyhazi]

aindayou

I suggest being very careful reading Andrew's writings.

He is very much in his own world with regard to piano technique, and his extreme excessive thinking greatly hinders finding natural ways of solving playing challenges.

He's quite stuck, and if you read back in time, he's virtually in the same place he was years ago, promoting his extremely unnatural "finger extension" method of playing.

He will defend this "poking" technique without hesitation, which he himself cannot use when he plays up to speed.

So be very careful reading him... he "sounds" like he knows what he's talking about, but in practice, his theories do not work since he himself cannot employ them.

Pianists play by finger "flexion" not "extension". A simple fact of nature.

A very strange situation I'd avoid if I were you.

I have very little to say about that, except that asserting a closed-minded opinion without supportive evidence does not prove it to be true. Here's a film I shot yesterday:

Like all pianists I SOMETIMES play with an action that retracts the finger. However, you can clearly see in the opening motif (and countless other passages) that my fifth finger is not slipping even a millimeter back across the key. Neither is my arm shoving it down. The only explanation is that it is extending, precisely as I describe.

I'll thank you not to make assumptions about whether I am "hindered" in solving technical challenges- or at least demonstrate precisely what such a claim is based upon. My fingers have never been moving so easily as they are currently (after this approach) so I am very much in interested in what you feel is being hindered. You might want to compare it to my mephisto of a year ago. My technique has been hindered since then? While the issues with alignment in the right wrist are not yet entirely resolved, the improvement is abundantly visible. That is because I stopped depending so much on pulling actions that were dragging it forward.

Also, the finger extension action has been my default for less than a year I believe. I have no idea where you get your facts from.

[mozart_to_go]

Pianists play by finger "flexion" not "extension". A simple fact of nature.

Yes, a simple flexion like we do 100 times a day is the answer.  When do we ever use the unnatural extension?  The only use I know of is to allow us to grasp larger things (by opening up our hand).

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, a simple flexion like we do 100 times a day is the answer.  When do we ever use the unnatural extension?  The only use I know of is to allow us to grasp larger things (by opening up our hand).

Press-ups and pushing things. Are these "unnatural" tasks? Humans never had to push anything around during the years of evolution? Also, nobody said anything about opening the knuckles. The knuckles still flex in an extension action. The middle joints of the fingers are the ones that open. Would you clench these when pushing a boulder or doing a press-up? You'd need to be extending them open to direct the energy.

[aindavou]

pts1

I understand what you talk.
And, too, I’m not will put my healthy body on hands of a virtual forum (to not appoint users), of course. I’m just talking, because I need that. Talk here really let me enjoy again in music with much happiness.
I’ve a lot of articles, books, texts, that a university teacher and friends, gave me. So I know what do. Of course too I'll no back without teacher. And I’m happy to walk slow, first i need to buy a piano (again).

But this boy, Andrew, try help-me, and really, I reading just this topic, and this make sense to me. But I have no time to read his blog. But, how I said in a past postage, I’m talking no English, still very hard to me, and maybe I understand something wrong. When I read his texts, of course, I’ll read with more attention and critic eyes. But, per hour, I can’t say his are wrong. But/And A lot of people just read and pass to a next topic, or because do not have how help or it is not his interest. Andrew give a lot of his time to try help, and I had to grateful, i like so much his help.

Pianists play by finger "flexion" not "extension". A simple fact of nature

I agree with this (too because i had tendinitis in extensions tendons).

Do you see me playing?, can tell me what you see wrong, what I can improve.
Help me with the perception, to I know what I do wrong in my technique (and remember: this is a past video and I had 3 years stopped).


thank you

[nyiregyhazi]

I agree with this (too because i had tendinitis in extensions tendons).

I can imagine this. When you use forceful arm pressures (like in the E minor nocturne), it will put a extremely violent workload on the tendons. It's important to start without those arm pressures and to make the actions extremely gentle.

I'm just finishing off a post at the moment with some exercises that illustrate how much harder the fingers are forced to work when arm pressure is involved. It might sound counterintuitive- but remember that the hand is only forced to work at least as hard as the arm. There's no possibility of arm pressures "replacing" the workload on the fingers. The fingers are only made to work harder. If the fingers are being strained, the arm needs to stop burdening them.

[pts1]

Do you see me playing?, can tell me what you see wrong, what I can improve.
Help me with the perception, to I know what I do wrong in my technique (and remember: this is a past video and I had 3 years stopped).

Aindayou

Yes, I immediately saw something that I think you need to change.

It is very important, in my opinion.

Its your posture and height.

First, I think you need to sit higher. Your elbow is too low. Your elbow should be no lower than the keyboard, and preferably a little higher, a couple of centimeters.

Why?

By sitting higher, your arm will feel lighter and more free, which should remove any tension you're feeling in your hands. With your elbow and forearm so low, you're almost "holding on" to the keys with your fingers.

When you sit at the right height (judged by experimentation), your upper arm should hang simply by gravity, and your forearm and hands should feel like they are floating and hovering just above the keys. This way, you have not only eliminated all the effort you are making "holding up your arms and hands to reach the keys", but now you can move more and move easier to produce sound.

The second thing, is you sit too far away from the keyboard, but I think this will be corrected when you sit higher.

This seems like such a simple thing, and it is, but its critical.

Adjusting your height will likely feel strange to you at first, but stick with it and focus on the feeling of lightness and freedom in your arms and hands.

If I am correct, I think this may make a very big and positive difference for you.

[nyiregyhazi]

Aindayou

Yes, I immediately saw something that I think you need to change.

It is very important, in my opinion.

Its your posture and height.

First, I think you need to sit higher. Your elbow is too low. Your elbow should be no lower than the keyboard, and preferably a little higher, a couple of centimeters.

Why?

By sitting higher, your arm will feel lighter and more free, which should remove any tension you're feeling in your hands. With your elbow and forearm so low, you're almost "holding on" to the keys with your fingers.

When you sit at the right height (judged by experimentation), your upper arm should hang simply by gravity, and your forearm and hands should feel like they are floating and hovering just above the keys. This way, you have not only eliminated all the effort you are making "holding up your arms and hands to reach the keys", but now you can move more and move easier to produce sound.

The second thing, is you sit too far away from the keyboard, but I think this will be corrected when you sit higher.

This seems like such a simple thing, and it is, but its critical.

Adjusting your height will likely feel strange to you at first, but stick with it and focus on the feeling of lightness and freedom in your arms and hands.

If I am correct, I think this may make a very big and positive difference for you.

I don't think I could agree with that- at least not on the E minor nocturne (which is where problems are most visible). On the other video it's not quite so clear, from the angle- but his elbow still ends up way higher than the keys much of the time. Anyway, on the E minor his back tends to lean over a good deal. He's already sitting quite high- but the tendency to allow the length of the spine to sag makes the elbows go lower. If anything it's almost like he's trying to compensate for being rather high. If he pushed the stool a little closer and sat up straight, I suspect that his elbows would be slightly above the keys, if anything.