Agitato - Chopin 2nd Blallade - technique question

[hbofinger]

Hi,

As I am speeding up the agitato on the 2nd Ballade, I still get tension in my right arm, by the outside wrist on the right hand, going up the outside of the right arm. The more I experiment, the more I wonder if it is a question of not allowing the fingers to pull more. I am using the edited fingering, and am not experiencing lockup. It is just that the wrist and arm do not fell as loose as I think they should. Any ideas?

[le_poete_mourant]

Any specific place in the coda? Measure numbers? My suspicion is that your not relaxing your wrist enough, not giving yourself enough points to re-organize your hand and arm. On the third and fourth bars of the coda, and similar places, try practicing with two-note slurs on the changing double notes. Get your wrist involved in the "down-up" motion (that's the point of the two-note slurs)... The "down-up" is only an approximate description, and it's not exactly that, but it's the best we can do not working in person.

If you're experiencing tightness and tension when the octaves come in, one way to diagnosis the root of your tension is to block the chords -- i.e., the octaves + the double notes that are immediately before the octaves. Play each chord in isolation, and find the correct position where you do not feel any tension for playing that chord. Remember that feeling and then try to integrate it.

Bottom line, if you're tense that means you're playing it too fast too soon. Work from a slower tempo and gradually work up your tempo. Increase by two metronome ticks and then go down one; increase by two, down by one and repeat. Until it is comfortable.

[danhuyle]

If you're getting tension in your arms, then you're not doing it right.

here's my performance of Ballade No2

The coda is about 10:00 mark. I can tell you that I feel no tension at all playing this ballade.

Hope the video helps.

[beebert]

If you're getting tension in your arms, then you're not doing it right.

here's my performance of Ballade No2

The coda is about 10:00 mark. I can tell you that I feel no tension at all playing this ballade.

Hope the video helps.

Is this a joke of some kind?

[werq34ac]

Is this a joke of some kind?

of course not, the shaping and sense of rubato are phenomenal. And those arpeggios  so fast.... And that coda, wow.


But seriously, let's hope we haven't offended dan 


referring back to the original post. DOUBLE NOTES ARE FREAKING HARD. Have you played Chopin 10/7?  I think it would be worth taking a look at it. Tension isn't good, but we really can't help it much with a passage like that. I'm not sure what to say; omg, you need to take a chill pill, or oh just loosen up a little, or you need a completely different approach. We need to see you play.

[beebert]

But I am not only talking about the playing.. I mean, the moving around... Oh dear God, the moving around..

[danhuyle]

of course not, the shaping and sense of rubato are phenomenal. And those arpeggios  so fast.... And that coda, wow.


But seriously, let's hope we haven't offended dan 


referring back to the original post. DOUBLE NOTES ARE FREAKING HARD. Have you played Chopin 10/7?  I think it would be worth taking a look at it. Tension isn't good, but we really can't help it much with a passage like that. I'm not sure what to say; omg, you need to take a chill pill, or oh just loosen up a little, or you need a completely different approach. We need to see you play.

I'm not offended at all. Definitely play Chopin Etude Op10/7. Is it somewhere in the first 2 themes (16 bars in the coda) that you're encountering the tension?

[pianoman53]

The coda is about 10:00 mark. I can tell you that I feel no tension at all playing this ballade.

I can tell on the first 10 seconds that the "no tension at all" is bull.

What you need to do is finding your own way of using your arm and your wrist. I go up and down very much with with wrist. Also, it might sound stupid, but, don't play too fast. Everyone has this urge to play it as fast as one possibly can. He didn't write any new tempo, he just added agitato. So, in a way, it can even go a touch slower.
And also, this is among the most difficult part there is. I don't think I've played anything that I've had more trouble with than this part, and there are plenty of professional pianists being able to play mostly anything, but still screw up this part, so don't have the idea that it will get solved really quickly.

But good luck, it's an amazing piece!

[werq34ac]

I can tell on the first 10 seconds that the "no tension at all" is bull.

What you need to do is finding your own way of using your arm and your wrist. I go up and down very much with with wrist. Also, it might sound stupid, but, don't play too fast. Everyone has this urge to play it as fast as one possibly can. He didn't write any new tempo, he just added agitato. So, in a way, it can even go a touch slower.
And also, this is among the most difficult part there is. I don't think I've played anything that I've had more trouble with than this part, and there are plenty of professional pianists being able to play mostly anything, but still screw up this part, so don't have the idea that it will get solved really quickly.

But good luck, it's an amazing piece!

Good point, don't start faster than your previous tempo. Agitato doesn't mean start faster. It could mean GET faster, but most certainly not start faster. keyword COULD. I've always though of agitato as an indication for rubato.

[hbofinger]

Sorry for having been silent after posting this thread. For a while there was no response, and now I am on travel.

I have not looked at the video here, but I did find out that different pianos require different techniques. Also, moving between slow and fast alternating makes it a bit easier to just hand position, rotation of the wrist, and so on. I will be more thorough in my response to all of these suggestions once I am back on my instrument. In the meantime, thanks! for all of those suggestions!

[hbofinger]

OK I now have looked at the video.

My tension comes up only at HIGH TEMPO, i.e. I am driving to hear the pulse of the left hand at three beats to, let's say, metronome setting 75 (so count 1-2-3 to each beat). I have no tension at slow practice.

The more I play it the more I'd say the toughest part (besides the jumping chords at the end) lies in bars 10 and 11 of the agitato, and their repeat an octave lower. Specifically, the beginning of measure 11, with the right hand on the black keys (b flat and a flat). I find that to hit those black keys correctly (also in the previous measure at the start) I need to flatten my hand & fingers, rather than curve the fingers.

Eventually I think I will get it right...

[nyiregyhazi]

OK I now have looked at the video.

My tension comes up only at HIGH TEMPO, i.e. I am driving to hear the pulse of the left hand at three beats to, let's say, metronome setting 75 (so count 1-2-3 to each beat). I have no tension at slow practice.

Are you 100% sure? You're not just having time to let go of it between notes? If your conception is based on fixing the hand to apply energy from the arm, there will always be limits to how fast you can go. If the fingers start by creating plenty of movement, nothing needs to be braced- whether you add big arm gestures or not. The mistake 99% of people make is to try to create speed by arm shoves through a stiffened hand that has not learned to move the keys itself. The fingers need to be the primary source of movement- even if you involve various wrist gestures. That way, nothing has any need to become tense. If you don't create enough movement, there's literally no choice but to stiffen your hand to stop it giving way.

[hbofinger]

The fingers need to be the primary source of movement

Fortunately I am aware of that.

The more I am working on it, the more I realize I may just have been speeding it up too quickly.,

[pianoman53]

If your conception is based on fixing the hand to apply energy from the arm, there will always be limits to how fast you can go. If the fingers start by creating plenty of movement, nothing needs to be braced- whether you add big arm gestures or not. The mistake 99% of people make is to try to create speed by arm shoves through a stiffened hand that has not learned to move the keys itself. The fingers need to be the primary source of movement- even if you involve various wrist gestures. That way, nothing has any need to become tense. If you don't create enough movement, there's literally no choice but to stiffen your hand to stop it giving way.

Okay, quick question (on which I already know the answer): Have you ever tried to play this "only fingers"-bull on anything even half difficult? Or even better, have you played the coda, without use of the arm?

Now, don't answer. I know it will be something like "You have no point... However, I'm right, and you're wrong *fancy difficult words and an 10000 word essay".

Anyway, don't try to do it without arm. You will die.

[nyiregyhazi]

Okay, quick question (on which I already know the answer): Have you ever tried to play this "only fingers"-bull on anything even half difficult? Or even better, have you played the coda, without use of the arm?

Now, don't answer. I know it will be something like "You have no point... However, I'm right, and you're wrong *fancy difficult words and an 10000 word essay".

Anyway, don't try to do it without arm. You will die.

I'd be most interested in who the quotation marks around "only fingers" are attributed to.

Regardless, last time I played through the coda (I haven't previously learned it myself but read through passages on various occasions when a student had worked on it) I was pretty stunned by how much more easily it flowed since I last tried it. The difference was that the fingers were always moving directly rather than bracing to transfer arm pressures that jam everything into constant impact. Does that mean I used "only fingers"? No. The arm moved plenty. However, it did not do so in conjunction with fingers that are forced to brace against collapse due to inadequate movement. Until the fingers are moving enough, arm pressures will force the hand and forearm to stiffen.

Also, in response to your question, I have played this passage and many others without applying energy via the arm. I go slow and create all key movement with the fingers- but, very importantly, I allow the arm to bounce freely away after every motion. Ironically, it's by removing the sense of down from the arm that you take the biggest burden off the fingers. It's only when the arm presses hard or stays rigid that this overworks the fingers. From there, you know for definite that the hand is creating enough movement- rather than just stiffening itself up to transfer arm pressures. You can go on to experiment with more arm movement- safe in the knowledge that it's not compensating for poor ability at the finger end (which is where the energy transfer actually takes place)

[pianoman53]

My point exactly! As always, the one arguing with you (me in this case) clearly misunderstood everything you wrote (interesting that this happens every time you have a discussion btw...) and you then say something different. then there is some "However"-thing, which makes you sound so incredibly important, which I'm sure you are. And ending with "after I adapted my "wrist on speed"-movements/only fingers-strategy, everything sounds 10000 times better".

I love experts!... especially if they are experts, since they have their own blog. Aah, I get so upset by that bullcrap of yours, so now I stop.

[nyiregyhazi]

My point exactly! As always, the one arguing with you (me in this case) clearly misunderstood everything you wrote

Indeed. Please reread:

If your conception is based on fixing the hand to apply energy from the arm, there will always be limits to how fast you can go. If the fingers start by creating plenty of movement, nothing needs to be braced- whether you add big arm gestures or not. The mistake 99% of people make is to try to create speed by arm shoves through a stiffened hand that has not learned to move the keys itself. The fingers need to be the primary source of movement- even if you involve various wrist gestures. That way, nothing has any need to become tense. If you don't create enough movement, there's literally no choice but to stiffen your hand to stop it giving way.

If that became "only fingers" to you, you indeed misunderstood everything I wrote. You might think that moving the fingers requires a rigid arm but, seeing as it doesn't, the above only says what it says- that the fingers need to move regardless of how much or little arm movement in involved. If you draw "only fingers" from that, it is a strawman argument of your own making, not anything I came near suggesting.

The only matter in which you have to make a choice is between moving fingers or bracing them with stiffness. There is no forced choice between having to only move the fingers or move the arm.

I'm not interested in an any kind of off-topic feud (although I will stop to illustrate any total misrepresentations of the topical point I made). My words remain exactly as I stated them, whether you wish to attribute a completely different meaning to them or not.

[nyiregyhazi]

"after I adapted my "wrist on speed"-movements/only fingers-strategy, everything sounds 10000 times better".

Also, if you want to use quotes, put them around something that is actually being quoted. Quotes are designed for accurate quotation. Not for surrounding invented statements by a person whose strongest means of argument is to make something up that has nothing to do with what the other party said and pretend that it's their view. If you have any serious interest in technical issues, argue based on what HAS been said. Trying to score points via something so cheap as misrepresenting  arguments (rather than tackling them head-on) is for school yards, not for serious debate.

[pianoman53]

Oh.. look at the time... Now I have to go back to the school yard and argue with the cool people, who live in their mum's basement.

[hbofinger]

Back to topic: The devil really lies in the fingering. Details, details.

I am using the piano street edition. It is one minor, unnoticed divergence from their fingering that caused the evil. In measure 10 of the agitato, 5 is on the e flat, 3 on the b flat on the first notes in the right hand. Then the hand shifts (I'd almost call it a small jump), to 1 on the g, and 4 on the b flat. If you are sloppy on that shift, you end up playing 3 again on the b flat instead of four. This creates tension! The same issue resides in the subsequent measure.

I still wonder if I should have worked in Joseffy's fingering in my Schirmer edition. Looks interesting, but a whole new learning job...

[pianoman53]

Re learning fingering isn't all bad. You will have time to really think of the phrasing, in a slow speed.

I don't know about Joseffy, but the Paderewski is almost always good. You might want to check out the Cortot edition too.

[hbofinger]

Re learning fingering isn't all bad. You will have time to really think of the phrasing, in a slow speed.

I don't know about Joseffy, but the Paderewski is almost always good. You might want to check out the Cortot edition too.

Good point - I just downloaded the Paderewski edition. Thanks! I will also look for Cortot.

[asuhayda]

This is a difficult piece.  I think you'd be best served by discussing this piece with a master teacher.  The ending section will require someone to watch you closely while playing it. 

Most of all, you just have to go for it. You're going to find yourself developing a lot of tension if you're trying to keep things under control.  So, go for it.  You're probably gonna crash and burn a lot at first, but you'll get it over time.

Those decending arpeggios with the thirds on top are tricky... So, be patient and practice them slowly.  Same with the decending minor triad scales...

Also, I'm all about conserving energy.  So, in my opinion, try not to flair around too much at the keyboard.. that's just going to increase your margin of error. Each to his own though.

This is an old thread. So, hopefully you've figured this section out by now.

Good luck!

[hbofinger]

Asuhayda,

Agreed - it's an old thread. So here is where I am at now:

1. This piece is worth all of its challenges, and deeply rewarding. For me, this is obvious. I am happy I have had the classical training I have had, and am glad I challenged myself to this.

2. Technically I have overcome the challenge, I mean THIS challenge I was posting about. But... there is always something else...

3. The arpeggios are not my problem - it's the jumps around them.

4. ...And there I learn that it is quite important to use finger pulls in the right hand to hit the right notes...

A heck of a satisfying learning process!...

[asuhayda]

congrats!  It's a tough piece, so it's definitely an accomplishment. Best of luck to you.

[jhein]

If you're getting tension in your arms, then you're not doing it right.

here's my performance of Ballade No2

The coda is about 10:00 mark. I can tell you that I feel no tension at all playing this ballade.

Hope the video helps.

What the hell? Do you actually teach people?

[danhuyle]

What the hell? Do you actually teach people?

To do the gestures you see in the video? I learned that watching Lang Lang playing on his "Live in Carnegie Hall"

I can play professionally by sitting still and all those things they teach you at university. Yet, playing like Lang Lang plays helps reduce nervousness, and that's another topic on gestures in performance.

back to the topic

To play the agitato in Ballade no2, take it slowly applying the "right" technique and fingering.

[pianoman53]

To do the gestures you see in the video? I learned that watching Lang Lang playing on his "Live in Carnegie Hall"

I can play professionally by sitting still and all those things they teach you at university. Yet, playing like Lang Lang plays helps reduce nervousness, and that's another topic on gestures in performance.

back to the topic

To play the agitato in Ballade no2, take it slowly applying the "right" technique and fingering.

yeah, and it obviously works very well. The tone quality and the speed is amaaazing! It almost lives up to a grade 2 standard! In a few years, you can probably compete with a simplified Marry had a little lamb.

As Dan so geniously pointed out, you need to use both right technique and fingering. To use the wrong technique, like playing with with your toes, will probably not take this coda to perfection.

First of all, play only the melody. Think of how you want to phrase it. As  Leon Fleisher to cleverly pointed out: "Technique is to be able to make the music sound like you want it to".
If you don't know how you want it to sound, playing fast notes wont take you anywhere, cause you will have to start over anyway. So always think of how you want it to sound - where does the phrase go, and where to emphasize... Maybe you will realize that you actually like it a bit slower than what you first thought.
The technique itself is like the Chopin studies: We can't really tell you, because everyone uses different techniques, and what works for one might be even physically bad for an other.
To not sound like an important teacher, who has no technique, but only very deep words:
My wrist goes up and down, and very much into the keys, when I play it. And in the chormatic part, I sort of "stiffen" the wrist in a very high position, and shake it from the arm.

One of our lovely experts, who's name I can't spell, might say "You are wrong.. blah blah, however, I'm right.. blah blah...". That's very much his right to do so, but his perfect technique might not work for everyone.
...

Edit: Maybe I wrote this already, but I felt that I can't Only write bad things about some users here without giving some sort of feedback...

Edit no 2: Sorry, I didn't notice you already came up with a good way of playing it..
Congratulations!
If you still have problems with the leaps, you need to take the time to look where you put your fingers. Just a very quick look at both sides, so you see where the notes are, and then wee where you hit the wrong ones. And then look more on the side where you tend to miss..