Historic instruments and recordings

[justharmony]

Someone was asking in another thread for recommendations about recordings of historic instruments. I do believe that hearing (and whenever possible, playing) these instruments can be incredibly illuminating, perspective-changing, and a very moving experience.  The first time I heard Beethoven on a period instrument, I found myself hearing the music in an entirely new, and wonderful, way - suddenly the music made sense to me in ways I didn't even realize it had not, quite, before, when played on the modern grand.  The experience sparked a passionate interest in historic instruments and how they relate to the music written for them. 

As far as recordings go, though, I have yet to find a set of recordings that really capture this experience - for me.  I am not sure why this is, or why it would be, that somehow recording a historic piano does not quite capture it... Maybe it's just a perception thing, maybe there is some technical aspect that I do not understand.  I don't know, but I find myself at a loss to come up with any particular recording that has ever replicated the experience of hearing one of these instruments in person, or playing one.  Am I crazy, or can someone explain this to me?

Often, I find recordings to be sort of two-dimensional, with the pianos sounding kind of flat and "plinky" in the treble, when in real life I do not find them to be such.  At least, not in the way I very often find in recordings.  Yes, it's true that the treble does not sustain as much with a historic instrument, but there is something "more" to the sound in real life... it is difficult for me to describe.  The bass is easier to capture, I think... the clarity, the resonance, the sheer full beauty that so supports the treble...

I would like to be able to recommend a set of recordings that could open up the world of historic instruments to others in the way my experiences have opened that world to me, but I find it difficult to do so.  I find myself with several recordings on the tip of my tongue, but wanting to qualify each one in some way or another.  Hmm. 

I am curious if anyone else has similar experience, and what recordings, if any, others have found to be illuminating and moving in regards to experiencing the sound of historic pianos?

JH

[iansinclair]

fools rush in, where angels fear to tred -- or something.  But I will suggest... two recordings, with the warning that I don't think either of them are currently available:

For Bach, Well Tempered Clavier (the whole thing!) -- in my humble opinion (oh yeah, right!) it would be very very hard to beat the old RCA Victor set, LM-6801, six discs, by Wanda Landowska, recorded on a two manual Pleyel in her home in 1958.

For Beethoven, again an old set: Jorg Demus using an 1802 Broadwood forte-piano, Musical Heritage Society OR B-316/317/318; five sonatas (Pathetique, "Moonllight" (quasi una Fantasia), Tempest, pP 10 #3, and Waldstein) and a few smaller works -- including, for the real masochists, a very nice rendition of fur Elise.  Not sure of the recording date; probably around 1965 or so.

As I said, these are vinyl; the Landowska set is monaural; the Demus is, technically, stereo (but very very mildly so).

I won't say that either set captures the live experience, but both do remarkably well.  As I am sure you are aware, piano and harpsichord are among the most difficult instruments to record successfullly and to reproduce electronically that exist, and it really doesn't matter in that regard whether the instrument is modern or period.  I am not a recording expert, but from what I've listened to it appears to me that the problem (assuming the microphone placements are reasonable) is mostly in that the piano is really a percussion instrument, and the harpsichord plucked -- and in both cases the actual attack of the note contains a lot of very high frequency information which has to be very carefully in phase with the principal tone and the harmonics.  Many sound systems either can't reproduce the frequencies involved at all, or introduce phase shift and distortion in the process (early CDs were horrible this way; recent ones are much better).  MP3 compression (iPods and similar contraptions), of course, is hopeless -- but should never be used for classical music or jazz anyway.

[pianotrio]

Someone was asking in another thread for recommendations about recordings of historic instruments.

Yep, that was me.  Thanks for following it up!

Often, I find recordings to be sort of two-dimensional, with the pianos sounding kind of flat and "plinky" in the treble, when in real life I do not find them to be such.  At least, not in the way I very often find in recordings.  Yes, it's true that the treble does not sustain as much with a historic instrument, but there is something "more" to the sound in real life... it is difficult for me to describe.  ...

That is very interesting. I don't think I've ever actually heard piano music played live on a period instrument (though I've heard string music being performed on period instruments and it was quite wonderful).

-K

[pianolive]

[quote} For Bach, Well Tempered Clavier (the whole thing!) -- in my humble opinion (oh yeah, right!) it would be very very hard to beat the old RCA Victor set, LM-6801, six discs, by Wanda Landowska, recorded on a two manual Pleyel in her home in 1958./quote]

I have such a "Landowska" cembalo from Pleyel for repair in the shop. It is very different from a normal cembalo. Cast iron frame and quite heavy strings. Special square headed tuning pins with a whippen construction for fine tuning.
Length 240 cm. Made for consert halls.

[justharmony]

Sorry for the slow reply (though it looks as though not too many folks are on the edge of their seats about this topic anyhow)...  But I have to agree that Landowska's recordings are not ones I would turn to these days for examples of "historic" - her instrument, her temperament (tuned in equal temperament), etc. are just not historic at all.  That's not to say I don't respect what she did in the time she did it - I just would not turn to these recordings for "historic" perspectives.   But that's harpsichord, anyway, and the original question was about historic pianos - of which there are SO many varieties, evolutions, etc. 

I'm afraid I am still searching for that special and magical recording that gets even close to capturing Chopin or Beethoven (in general) in the same way that being in the intimate presence of an instrument appropriate for their music is so amazingly magical and moving (when played well).   

As I mentioned in another thread, though, I do have a Chopin recording - done by Trevor Stephenson on an 1840's English cottage piano.  I have to admit I don't care for his interpretation a lot of the time, but the instrument itself has a voice like no other piano I've heard - gossamer, intimate, capable of being quite poetic.  I am not totally convinced it is a good representative of Chopin's beloved Pleyel, though the instrument is enchanting and worth a listen.

Other recordings I have enjoyed include some by Ronald Brautigam on historic instruments - you can sample some on youtube.  Check out the Waldstein with the lovely and resonant bass:

There are also many good recordings that have come from the former "Shrine to Music" in South Dakota - a gem of historic instruments seemingly in the middle of nowhere.  There's one I particarly like that is recorded on one of the earliest examples of a pianoforte that DOES seem to capture that instrument well.  It's pretty amazing.  Not sure these recordings are available to the general public or whether you actually have to visit... (which I'd recommend, too, though note that you will not be able to touch or play any instrument - they are fiercely protected for historic study and documentation.) 

Another I hear wonderful things about is one called "Beethoven in the temperaments" which I have yet to acquire.  Several other recordings on my wish list which have been recommended to me, but which I cannot speak to, myself (yet):

•Chopin Nocturnes (on an 1836 Pleyel) by Michele Bgoegner (Caliope, CAL 9281.2)
•Chopin:  Eveningss Around and 1831 Pleyel, op. 111 OPS 30-286
•Chopin: Mazurkas and Nocturnes – Zvi Meniker (Trondlin, 1828) Raumklang

Wish I could be a better "recommender", but maybe there's a place to start.  REALLY what I would recommend to anyone is to make a point to hear these instruments in person wherever/whenever possible.  Schubert club in St. Paul.  Frederick collection in MA.  "Shrine" in South Dakota.  Just to name a few reservoirs of such instruments. Also individuals and university programs can be anywhere.

I'd be interested in anyone else's recommendations too!

JH