sOmething ab0ut hann0n

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

well the book "The virtourso Pianist"
i been hearing alot about this book,.
many say it is the work of the devil and sum say it wont help u much and others who say it ruin ther hands

but ther r the others who say this book is a must for all serious pianist and that it really helped them in ther technical skillz.

the book has been in use for over 100 years and is the most used technical book ever.

i want to get this straight.. plz help if u know anyfing about hannon

i want to hear every1s oppinon about this book.
did it help u improve or did nothing at all?
made u worse?
a must NOt for a self-taught?
ruined ur fingers?
thx in advance

[bernhard]

Have a look at reply #28 here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1084072922;start=9

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

My God thats the best post i ever read  
u say hanon's method is not sort of useful do u noe of any excercises that U find very useful in technique?(got some very useful stuff from faulty damp)

quote" Why bother? Instead play Scarlatti sonatas, or Bach 2 voice inventions. They will give you all the technique Hanon promises (without delivering) and much, much more."

r u telling us to learn the complete sonatas and bach 2 voice inventions to aquire technique? will this tip top my technique if learnt correctly?

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

heres bernards post for all those who r inTerseted
quote bernard
"First my usual disclaimer: What follows is just my opinion (what else could it be?) and it is not my purpose to convince anyone of anything. Piano playing cannot be improved on the basis of verbal argument. Instead, think of it as experiment suggestions. Choose two pieces of similar difficulty. Learn one following your own ideas. Learn the other following my suggestions. Compare results. Use what is useful, discard what is not. People are different. What may work for me or my students may not work for you or anyone else. However, if I do make a suggestion (you will notice that although I post  a lot, I will not get involved in any threads to which I feel I cannot contribute) it is usually because it yields spectacular results. Can you afford not to try? Beliefs are just unnecessary limitations. Do not worry about beliefs. Go after the facts.

Now for Hanon.

1. The Virtuoso Pianist was published in 1873. Could we have learned something about technique since then? But more to the point, did Hanon have at his disposal all the knowledge needed to write a collection of technical exercises that would still continue to be valid even 131 years later?

2. Have you ever read the preface Hanon wrote for his exercises, where he gives directions on how to practise them? It makes for a most intriguing reading. Here are a few excerpts (but I suggest that you read the full preface):

[..]To attain this end, it sufficed to find the solution to the following problem: If all five fingers of the hand were absolutely equally well trained, they would be ready to execute anything written for the instrument and the only question remaining would be that of fingering, which could be readily solved.

We have found the solution of this problem in our work “The Virtuoso Pianist in 60 Exercises”. In this volume will be found the exercises necessary for the acquirement of agility, independence, strength and perfect evenness in the fingers as well as suppleness of the wrists - all indispensable qualities for fine execution; furthermore, these exercises are calculated to render the left hand equally skilful with the right. […]

Now, in 1873 it was not the practice of piano pedagogues to be fully acquainted with human anatomy. In fact I doubt that the full details of anatomy and muscle physiology were available then. In particular, Hanon seems completely ignorant of two anatomical facts – one obvious – the other not so obvious but nevertheless there. Fact number one: fingers have different sizes. Fact number two the fourth finger shares a tendon with the third finger, so it cannot move independently. Therefore the whole Hanon project and directions for practice are based on a completely false premise: that it is possible to acquire equal strength on all fingers, and moreover that you can acquire finger independence. From that false premise he jumps to a now hopelessly false conclusion: that the way to do so is to do his exercises.

If a salesman knocked at your door and proceeded to try to sell you a book of instructions that-  if followed  -would allow you to fly like superman would you buy it? You would not even need to read and try the instructions in the book, because no matter how reasonable and compelling they may appear, it promises something you know to be impossible.  

Likewise I do not need to even enter the merit of Hanon exercises, because their final aim (equal finger strength and independence) is anatomically impossible no matter how much you repeat them.

3. But it gets worse. Hanon directs you to keep all the playing apparatus (shoulder girdle/arm/forearm/hands) motionless and move only the fingers. I kid you not! Here are his very own words:

Lift the fingers high and with precision, playing each note very distinctly. (Exercise 1)

We repeat that the fingers should be lifted high, and with precision, until this entire volume is mastered. (Exercise 5)

Lift the fingers high and with precision without raising hand or wrist (Exercise 44)

Lift the fingers high and with precision throughout this exercise without raising hand or wrist (Exercise 47)

Strike the octaves without lifting the wrists, and hold them down while deftly executing the intermediate notes with a good finger movement. (Exercise 58 )

Neither wrist nor hand should be moved in the least while playing this exercise (Exercise 59)

Do any of these exercises in the way prescribed and you end up with a serious injury.

Only in six of the more advanced exercises the wrists are allowed to move at all, and  specific directions are given to that end. Here again in his own words:


Lift the wrists well after each stroke, holding the arms perfectly quiet; the wrist should be supple, and the fingers firm without stiffness. Practise the first four measures until an easy wrist-movement is obtained. (Exercise 4.

The wrists should be very supple, the fingers taking the octaves should be held firmly but without stiffness, and the unoccupied fingers should assume a slightly rounded position. At first repeat these three first lines slowly until a good wrist-movement is attained, and then accelerate the tempo continuing the exercise without interruption. If the wrists become fatigued, play more slowly until the feeling of fatigue has disappeared, and then gradually accelerate up to the first tempo. (Exercise 51).

We cannot too strongly insist on the absolute necessity of a proper wrist-movement; it is the only means of executing octaves without stiffness and with suppleness, vivacity and energy (Exercise 53).

This highly important exercise (broken octaves) prepares the wrists for the study of the tremolo (Exercise 56).  

To begin with practice the first arpeggio in C which must be played cleanly and distinctly, with a good wrist-movement, before passing to the next in minor (Exercise 57).

Finally, by oscillations of the wrists, the rapidity is still further augmented up to the tempo of the drum roll (Exercise 60).

Nowhere in the whole book do we find reference to forearms, arms, shoulders, back or even posture. One gets the impression that Hanon’s ideal is for the pianist to remain motionless while his fingers - and in a few instances - his wrists do all the work. There is simply no piece in the entire piano repertory where such a way of playing would be appropriate. There may be a few pieces that you may be able to play like that, but even the Hanon exercises can benefit from using the whole of the playing apparatus. So what can possibly the point of endless practising something that will never be appropriate? Whatever technique you may acquire from Hanon will be pretty much useless.

I play the recorder. Even when playing the recorder the whole body must move (although a careless observer may get the impression that all you are doing is moving your fingers up and down). So Hanon’s technique is inadequate even for the recorder – an instrument which is far more limited in terms of arm movement than the piano.

Now of course, this is what Hanon tells us in his writing. Maybe in his personal teaching he would say more. So apart from developping finger strength and independence (two impossibilities as we have seen), what else are they good for?

4. What about equalizing the hands? Hanon promises that in no uncertain terms:

these exercises are calculated to render the left hand equally skilful with the right.

Not if you play them as directed, that is with hands together. Assuming that your left hand is weaker, as you play through the exercises hands together, the left hand will always be playing beyond its capacity (and therefore getting tense, making mistakes and developping bad habits) while the right hand is never playing at its full potential (since it has to wait for the left).

Cold you play the exercises in a way that it would equalise the hands? Yes, practise them hands separate.

This of course would defeat the main goal of the book, as Hanon tells us:

This entire volume can be played through in an hour

Well,  not if you are going to do it hands separate as well, more like three hours…

5. What about Finger coordination?-

This is – in my opinion – the only saving grace of these exercises, the only level where some benefit can be derived. By finger coordination I mean the movement of each finger in turn according to a preestablished pattern. So in exercise number 1 each finger follows the other in the order 12345 (rh) and 54321(lh) when ascending and 54321 (rh) and 12345 when descending. In Exercise 15, fingers follow one another in the order 12132435 (rh) and 53423121 (lh) when ascending and 53423121 (rh) and 12132435 (lh) when descending. Such coordinations are by no means trivial, and may elude the practitioner for many weeks. The way to master them is through repetition and slow playing. Yet you have to play fast enough do that you do not have to “think”, for this will slow you down.  

Is Hanon good for this purpose them? Undoubtedly. But so is every piece of music ever written! So why, for crying out loud, practise these musical monstrosities in order to acquire something that can be acquired playing pieces from the repertory?

6. What about speed and agility?
Hanon suggests (for the majority of the exercises) that one starts on MM ´ = 60 and progresses to MM ´ = 108.  
Is 108 beats per minute the fastest one can play the exercises? No. However if one is to follow Hanon’s injunction of not moving the wrists and lifting each finger high and with precision, 108 beats per minute is about the limit speed. If you try playing faster one of two things will happen. Either you will tense and the fingers will loose their precision and cramp, or you will start moving wrists and forearms around in order to help with the finger movement. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the later as will be discussed later on. However there is something very wrong with tension. In the best scenario you simply will not be able to produce the best tone the piano has to offer. In the worst case scenario, insist on playing as fast as you can with tense wrists/arms/back/etc. for hours on end, repeating the same pattern over and over in the hope of eventually improving (no pain, no gain), and you may end up with a very nasty injury (eg. repetitive strain syndrom, carpal tunnel syndrom, focal dystonia). And this will mean not playing for 2 - 3 years (and in some cases never again).

Hanon must have been aware of the potential dangers, since he set the limit at 108 beats per minute.

The point here is that you cannot develop speed and agility with fingers alone. Velocity is a function of the upper arm. So once again, Hanon is pretty much useless for true virtuoso technique, since such technique demands the co-ordinated use of the whole body. How are you going to learn and practise such co-ordination from a set of exercises that allow you only to move from the wrist down?

7. All of the above leads us to an interesting question: can we salvage these exercises? Can’t we ignore Hanon’s suggestions and practise the exercises in a more appropriate way (hands separate for equalizing the hands, moving the whole playing apparatus and not only the fingers, etc.)? Of course we could.Hmoll, who disagrees with me on my rejection of Hanon has said that Hanon is good but should be used under the guidance of a teacher. I suspect that he is very aware of all the shortcomings above, but still thinks that with the necessary modifications Hanon can still be useful.  

Although I agree that it is possible to modify Hanon so that it becomes sort of useful, there are two problems with trying to salvage it. The first is the serious one. If your teacher is aware of all these problems – and therefore knowledgeable enough to modify the execution of the exercises so that they add up to something -  most likely he will not assign you Hanon. Which means that a teacher who assigns Hanon most likely has not even reflected on all the above, s/he is just following tradition. Therefore you are facing a huge waste of time in the best case scenario and some nasty injury in the worst case scenario.  The second argument about salvaging Hanon is much simpler: Why bother? Instead play Scarlatti sonatas, or Bach 2 voice inventions. They will give you all the technique Hanon promises (without delivering) and much, much more.

Best wishes,
Bernhard "

[Spatula]

I'll talk to my piano teacher about this; he preaches Hanon is your sidekick next to technique.

I really know that the actual technique you do (scales, arpeggios etc) are the good stuff to help you aquire a better sense of control, touch, and sound with the pieces.

But what Bernhard said is very true.  I rarely see the Hanon stuff applied to "real life" repetoire.

Maybe only the trills and the repeated notes where you place middle C in a fashion of 1-2-3 1-2-3 etc.  That I've seen in liszt and other pieces.

Bernhard, what is your take of technique?  Is that the "utlimo" format of practicing the fingerings to achieve virtuosity and a good musical sense?

[Spatula]

one-winged-angel (or sephiroth   )

You seemed to be able to do the Fan Impromptu pretty well despite not doing any hanons right?  well I guess its seems then hanons are redundant waste of time and energy and money!  

Someone say something...hint hint

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

yeah but learning that piece was very time consuming.
i took me far longer than it would of took the average pianist. money wasting lol?

oh and by learning this piece do u fink my technique improved?

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

hehe spehiroth  
howz u guess?

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

yo i posted this sumwher but no replies so i post here
if ur a experienced pianist plz help or i stab u  (joking calm down big fella)

question:
lets say you  mastered excercises like appregeos and the next week u forget how to play them. is ur technical level still improved even tho u forgot the excercise? or has ur technical skills decreased

[Spatula]

hehe spehiroth  
howz u guess?

Considering Final Fantasy VII is the highest selling and money-making game of Square-Enix's franchaise with the most spin offs of that game (Final Fantasy VII Advent Children, Final Fantasy Before Crisis) yeah, that was my hint.

Go here to see more:

https://wireless.gamespy.com/wireless/before-crisis-final-fantasy-vii/550235p1.html

[Spatula]

Bernhard,

I think here is the question that gets to the core of Hanon.

What is the thing that makes technique so important and that it is applicable to music, where as the Hanon's may exercise the fingers yet have no pratical use?

Perhaps the way I phrased the question answered it...ironic isn't it?

Please expand to the best of your ability of what is said above..

Thank you kindly.

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

I think here is the question that gets to the core of Hanon.

What is the thing that makes technique so important and that it is applicable to music, where as the Hanon's may exercise the fingers yet have no pratical use?

Perhaps the way I phrased the question answered it...ironic isn't it?

Please expand to the best of your ability of what is said above..

Thank you kindly.

Seymour Fink:

“What is piano technique?

I define it as purposeful movement for musical ends.

Purposeful coordinated movement triggered by inner hearing form the basis of musical expression. The spirit and quality of this movement is as much a part of the artistic message as accuracy of pitch and rhythm.

Mind and body are trained together. Good training encourages a variety of physical approaches for this increases the emotional range of your playing.

I also emphasize adaptability for we must constantly adjust to different pianos, rooms and associated musicians, let alone music spontaneity.

We seek the coherent development of advantageous coordinations.

The focus is on the player’s body, the way it is positioned, the way it moves, the sensations it feels and the sounds it produces.

The newly learned gestures will become fused with your musical imagination and spur you to more beautiful, more expressive piano playing.”

Gyorgy Sandor:

“Technique is the sum total of organised motions executed by the performer. These motions produce sounds that recreate the moods of the composer in the performer’s own interpretation.”

Maria João Pires:

“Technique is not something that exists in itself. It’s the way that you come to your goals and realise your musical wishes. It’s about how you use your body. People don’t talk about your “walking technique”; they talk about your “way of walking”. Similarly there is a way of using your body to play the piano. Technique implies something that you can repeat the same way, like a machine. But a musician has to be free to change at every moment. If music can never be played the same way twice, how can you have a technique? The word is dangerous because want the musician should learn is how to use his body, how to keep his body healthy an in good condition. This is exactly the opposite of most musicians.”

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

Seymour Fink:

“What is piano technique?

I define it as purposeful movement for musical ends.

Purposeful coordinated movement triggered by inner hearing form the basis of musical expression. The spirit and quality of this movement is as much a part of the artistic message as accuracy of pitch and rhythm.

Mind and body are trained together. Good training encourages a variety of physical approaches for this increases the emotional range of your playing.

I also emphasize adaptability for we must constantly adjust to different pianos, rooms and associated musicians, let alone music spontaneity.

We seek the coherent development of advantageous coordinations.

The focus is on the player’s body, the way it is positioned, the way it moves, the sensations it feels and the sounds it produces.

The newly learned gestures will become fused with your musical imagination and spur you to more beautiful, more expressive piano playing.”

Gyorgy Sandor:

“Technique is the sum total of organised motions executed by the performer. These motions produce sounds that recreate the moods of the composer in the performer’s own interpretation.”

Maria João Pires:

“Technique is not something that exists in itself. It’s the way that you come to your goals and realise your musical wishes. It’s about how you use your body. People don’t talk about your “walking technique”; they talk about your “way of walking”. Similarly there is a way of using your body to play the piano. Technique implies something that you can repeat the same way, like a machine. But a musician has to be free to change at every moment. If music can never be played the same way twice, how can you have a technique? The word is dangerous because want the musician should learn is how to use his body, how to keep his body healthy an in good condition. This is exactly the opposite of most musicians.”

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I'm taking it that I answered my own question..with your expansion as back up.

[CC]

I have a long section entitled "PlObrems wit HannOn Eggzerzizes" in section III.7.h in link below.

[Spatula]

I have a long section entitled "PlObrems wit HannOn Eggzerzizes" in section III.7.h in link below.

Yes I've read it, somewhat similar to Bernhard's point of view of Hanon.

[Piazzo22]

"...A hundred years ago, all Russian conservatory students underwent an exceptionally rigorous technical regime. Rachmaninoff said that scales and arpeggios were the foundation of his technique and that all his life he practiced them religiously. When he graduated from Moscow Conservatory it is said that he could play any Hanon exercise at 220 quarter notes to the minute, transposed to any key! Modern pedagogy scoffs at the ‘mindless mechanical drill’ of that era, but now we seldom if ever see this kind of physical mastery. To reach the Olympics, an athlete needs to acquire both a set of increasingly refined physical skills and basic strength. And so do aspiring pianists.

Today our main focus tends to be on relaxation, indirect attack on the key for warm tone, and supple arm movements to avoid injury. Unfortunately, this can limit us to a narrower pianistic sound spectrum. A reduced variety of dynamic and tonal range cannot do justice to our musical sophistication, and prevents the piano from doing what it alone can do so well—simulating the sound of an entire orchestra.

I suspect that even many advanced pianists now lack the sheer facility and the resulting power that our most illustrious forbears possessed, and this is one key reason why it is so often difficult to tell one pianist’s playing from another’s. The problem is not too much focus on technique, but too little. Of course I am not suggesting that the student go off and pump iron or do Charles Atlas exercises to develop bulging muscles. But when I show my students how to organize themselves physically to get good sound, their hand tends to tire very quickly. Their technique hasn’t evolved to the point where it would make such great demands on their physical strength. They do not lack musicality, but their technical focus has not been far-reaching enough to manifest that musicality fully. .."

From Alan Fraser´s "The Craft of Piano Playing"
https://solair.eunet.yu/~phraser/bookintr.html

[BoliverAllmon]

I like that quote. It makes me wonder also. Horowitz also says that 2 hrs. a day should be spent on scales, arpeggios, and exercises.

boliver

[Piazzo22]

I like that quote. It makes me wonder also. Horowitz also says that 2 hrs. a day should be spent on scales, arpeggios, and exercises.

boliver

Oh, I didn´t know that.

[Spatula]

2 hrs of technique is exhaustive, but not at all extreme for very high end technique concentration.

I sometimes even end my practice with technique, so it sandwiches the pieces I study.

[BoliverAllmon]

I like that quote. It makes me wonder also. Horowitz also says that 2 hrs. a day should be spent on scales, arpeggios, and exercises.

boliver

Oh, I didn´t know that.

yeah, he said that young pianists never work on technique enough.

[tocca]

question:
lets say you  mastered excercises like appregeos and the next week u forget how to play them. is ur technical level still improved even tho u forgot the excercise? or has ur technical skills decreased

Err???

I don't know if this question is serious, but if so: "Mastering arpeggios" will take time. LOTS of time, you'll need to repeat them so many times that the risk of "forgetting" them, even in years, is nonexistent.

About Hanon, i also think theese exercises are more or less useless. Or rather, as Bernhard says, there are MUCH better/more fun/more rewarding ways to aquire the same, or better, technice.
Why spend time on repetitive, dull, nonmusical exercises when you could play/enjoy music instead and reach the same goal??

[Spatula]

I like that quote. It makes me wonder also. Horowitz also says that 2 hrs. a day should be spent on scales, arpeggios, and exercises.

boliver

Oh, I didn´t know that.

yeah, he said that young pianists never work on technique enough.

The follies of youth

[BoliverAllmon]

my folly or Horowitz's?

[Spatula]

The folly of all youth because they think they're invincible. 

[BoliverAllmon]

explain

[Spatula]

Well, when you were five or six or seven or still in elementary school next to Neverland, didn't you feel that you were safe and secure and felt like pretty much nothing could get to you?  And didn't you feel that some of the things that the teachers taught weren't applicable to you until much older like anything piano related?

[BoliverAllmon]

i gotcha now.

[Spatula]

                     
                                    


                             
                                  
                                      

[faulty_damper]

i want to hear every1s oppinon about this book.
did it help u improve or did nothing at all?
made u worse?
a must NOt for a self-taught?
ruined ur fingers?

Would Bernhard care to write a review?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0793525446/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-2876433-5355043?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

[BoliverAllmon]

i'm sure it will consist of the usual points of his feelings towards Hanon.

[Spatula]

Note the irony:

"For several years we have worked to overcome this problem.  It is our goal to combine in one book, special exercises which make possible a complete study of piano technique in far less time"

Now for the reality:

DUDE IT'S MY 1000 POST!

[/color]

[BoliverAllmon]

maybe I am stupid, where is the irony?

[Spatula]

maybe I am stupid, where is the irony?

Because using hanon's ways...according to bernie...it's gonna take a LOT more time to get anything done with hanon.

[BoliverAllmon]

oh ok

i guess to each his own.

[mound]

This book can (and WILL) actually take you from a beginner-intermediate level to virtuoso pianist status.

( a user review on amazon.com)

wow! really?? 

[bernhard]

This book can (and WILL) actually take you from a beginner-intermediate level to virtuoso pianist status.

( a user review on amazon.com)

wow! really?? 

Yes, but Hanon is not really appropriate for people like us. It is far too advanced:
 

What other reviewers here as well as Amazon.com fails to tell you is that this book is strictly for the experienced student. You should NOT get this book unless you have a strong knowledge of music reading. This is not for beginners.

 

[BoliverAllmon]

quite