Questions regarding adv. Romantic pieces

[csano]

So, I'm the type that can't practice a single piece so I generally work on multiple pieces (which I know is bad, but it's impossible for me to force myself to practice one piece) and cycle through groups of 3 pieces depending on what I want to practice.
I'm currently working on:
Liszt Mephisto Waltz 1
Liszt Trancendental Etudes after Paganini no. 6 (not the famous one)
Liszt Liebestraum 3
Chopin Etude 10 no 12 (Revolutionary)
Chopin Etude 10 no 4
Chopin Etude 10 no 5

Alright, I know I'm tackling too much, but that's just how I practice.

Background: Played Liszt Etudes such as Mazeppa, La Campanella, etc. Chopin etude 10 no 3, Polonaise Heroique, Fantasie Impromptu (although it was very hard for me)
I generally have no trouble with leaps and octaves.
Max reach is between 9 and 10, if on black keys, I can barely do a 10. Octaves seems to be the perfect thing for me right now.
My problem is Chopin - like playing in general (fast finger movement)

Questions...

Mephisto Waltz (referencing

for times):
1a) I listen to recordings, and although it's allego vivace, I hear a presto/prestissimo. I tried playing at both tempos, and I like it presto, but looking at other forums, I hear criticisms regarding how people over - speed it. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the criticisms except because it says it on the score? (youtube: 00:00 ~ 00:28)

2a) After the second key change (from F minor to A major), there's a piano scherzando with the 32nd notes (it goes G# F# rest F# D# rest G# F#), but on recordings, I hear the two notes between the rests (G# and F#, F# and D#) played as if a chord, not even a rolled chord. Is it fine to play it as a chord, because that'll make this section a lot easier? (youtube: 01:11 ~ 1:17)

3a) I have trouble playing (2:05 ~ 2:09)

4a) I have trouble playing (4:56 ~ 5:07), and also the other one that's just transposed

5a) I have trouble playing (8:17), the <E> <F#> <octave E>

for 3a, I have trouble playing the right hand (doesn't catch up with tempo), my hand loses its endurance right at the G#. I also don't want to play the Ossia, so please don't tell me to.

for 4a, I have trouble playing it with the mystical tone on the part where you are supposed to use the pedal, it gets sloppy

for 5a, I just can't reach the E and the F#, and if I leap for the F#, my thumb leaves the E so the next octave E becomes a problem (I might as well as wait for a month or so and let my hands grow)

Liszt Trancendental Etudes after Paganini no. 6　(referencing

)
This is the unnecessarily hard one, but I personally like this a lot more compared to the famous one (Paganini Etude no 6), recommend listening to this sometimes, and maybe practicing it.

1b) I have trouble playing Var 1's first part (0:29 ~ 0:38) any suggested fingerings for the chords on the right hand? (I can reach up to a 9, C to D)

2b) On Var 6 (2:14) The left hand seems very weird. The top staff for the left hand suggests a fingering of 2 and 4, and the bottom staff asks you to play the same note as the one played with 2, and a note that's tenth higher. Does this mean Liszt wanted the pianists to play tenths with 1 and 4 and octaves in 1 and 2? (This questions is just out of curiosity, I can't play this var due to reach and probably technical abilities.)

Chopin Etude 10 no 4 (referencing

)
I just can't play this...
1c) I can't play the right hand for (0:35 ~ 0:43) the fact that I have to play a key with the thumb while the chromatic ascensions with 2,3,4 is the challenging part for me. I tried playing the right hand thumb part with the left hand, but I realized that lost the whole point of an etude, and I'm trying to redo it.

2c) The left hand in (0:58 ~ 1:03) troubles me, I always get mistouches, especially from the part right before the C D# F# A C D# F# A C part on the right hand.

3c) And the last part (after 1:47) is just a disaster. The leap on the left hand really throws me off

In summary, I basically have trouble with the parts that require fingering or fast moving fingers that does not involve leaps.

Not to mention, I have the same kind of trouble with...
- Revolutionary Etude in general (although I heard it's not as hard, IMO it's the hardest piece, harder than mazeppa)
- Black Key Etude in general, again because my right hand is a disaster
- climax of Liebestraum 3 when the left hand does a variation on the C major scale and the F minor(?) scale and the A minor scale... (C E G C E G ... )
- the cadenza ad libitium (?) of Mazeppa and the parts where 1,2,3 does a chromatic scale and 5 hits a note and goes up (or down) by 3 half steps (it's not bad, but definitely a room to improve in terms of legato and rhythm)

Is there any exercises except Czerny Etudes and Hannon (tried Hannon, hate it) that will help me improve over the problems I've presented? Or are there any other pieces that's like Op 10 no 4 (but easier) or Fantasie Impromptu that will help me work on my major problem?

Thanks in advance!

[ajspiano]

Is there any exercises except Czerny Etudes and Hannon (tried Hannon, hate it) that will help me improve over the problems I've presented?

Bach inventions/sinfonias

Nothing wrong with studying multiple pieces - far more productive than one piece.

Read anything by forum member bernhard, specifically consider 7 x 20 rule regarding how to effectively learn a piece - there are multiple posts on this, do a search.

Go here to find a range of threads that may help you with various concerns - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=9159.0

[csano]

I don't know if I should properly thank someone (I feel like it'll count as spam)
but thanks for the quick reply! I'm checking your links right now

[j_menz]

(I feel like it'll count as spam)

Politeness never counts against you.

[philb]

Background: Played Liszt Etudes such as Mazeppa, La Campanella, etc. Chopin etude 10 no 3, Polonaise Heroique, Fantasie Impromptu (although it was very hard for me)

Err, uh, yeah I'll leave it at that...

[csano]

Err, uh, yeah I'll leave it at that...

The thirds in the middle aren't as hard to memorize if you break it down, and I'm naturally good at leaps, (and I happen to suck at pieces requiring fingering, heck I play Heroic Polonaise's beginning chromatic perfect fourths with 24 only) so it wasn't hard as everyone said.

Here's how I practiced:
First theme:
just the melody both hands, then the thirds both hands, and combine every measure or every time the thirds change.

The octaves:
memorized the melody with the right hand, and after that, just let your left hand play along

Variation I:
the beginning is almost the same, and for the rest, do the same as first theme

The chromatic octave was something I practiced in Transcendental La Campanella, but should be easy.

Variation II:
the arpeggios with the left is annoying, but with practice, it becomes easy, and the right hand is very easy to memorize, putting them together should be pretty easy because there's no weird rhythms between them.

Variation III:
looks very hard, but the easiest variation. The right hand literally repeats the same note for a measure or half a measure, so that should be easy.
The left hand is <low note> <octave with another note accompanying in the inside> and then the bottom note going up by a halfstep until it reaches the accompanying note in the inside.

Right hand chromatics:
The one with the 'B' key every time isn't hard at all, and left hand follows a pattern, then the right hand does a chromatic scale on three notes at the same time (GCE, then goes down) this is hard, but I think you should watch the fingerings (I BSed the fingerings, but it worked)

Transition:
It's hard to memorize, but easy to play

Octaves:
Same as the one after theme

Variation IV:
Everything except the way the center keys are played is exactly the same as the first theme.

Variation V:
The hardest part, just get the leaps accurately, and you are done~

Last transition part:
The right hand is the same as the one in Variation II

And then the last page:
Should be one of the easiest things you've done by Liszt

[j_menz]

And then the last page:
Should be one of the easiest things you've done by Liszt

Yet strangely, I've never heard anyone do it justice. 

[ajspiano]

Yet strangely, I've never heard anyone do it justice. 

I could be wrong but I'm starting to suspect OP is a self taught "memorise the notes is enough" kind of pianist..

[j_menz]

I could be wrong but I'm starting to suspect OP is a self taught "memorise the notes is enough" kind of pianist..

OP mentions (s)he hates Hanon, so there is hope for him/her in a musical sense.

I do find some of the questions a bit odd, thoough.  My guess is that (s)he is attempting works that are a bit too hard and would benefit from going back and working on some more approachable things first to correct a range of weaknesses.

[ajspiano]

OP mentions (s)he hates Hanon, so there is hope for him/her in a musical sense.

I do find some of the questions a bit odd, thoough.  My guess is that (s)he is attempting works that are a bit too hard and would benefit from going back and working on some more approachable things first to correct a range of weaknesses.

Yes, thats why I said bach, and technically speaking pre WTC.

Probably do well to get the glenn gould recording of the inventions and try to emulate the awesome level of articulation.

[philb]

OP mentions (s)he hates Hanon, so there is hope for him/her in a musical sense.

Rather interesting thing to say, considering the amount of hate Hanon seems to receive on internet forums.

[j_menz]

Rather interesting thing to say, considering the amount of hate Hanon seems to receive on internet forums.

It will be clear from earlier postes in other forums by me that I am not a fan of Hanon for any purpose.

I acknowledge that there are plenty of others who disagree with that, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest that they are musically beautiful/interesting works. To that end, OPs views would indicate a musical sensibility.

[j_menz]

Yes, thats why I said bach, and technically speaking pre WTC.

Probably do well to get the glenn gould recording of the inventions and try to emulate the awesome level of articulation.

Agreed. Even if we are underestimating OPs skills, there is no-one who's playing (and day) won't be improved by a run through the Inventions.

[ajspiano]

Agreed. Even if we are underestimating OPs skills, there is no-one who's playing (and day) won't be improved by a run through the Inventions.

Except maybe rach, since in his case it would be just his playing..   

I must say, I really hope he hasn't played hanon at some point when he could've just played inventions which he chose to avoid out of a dislike for bach.

EDIT: personally I find they brighten my day a great deal more than my playing, just because they are intellectually challenging and never really stop giving as far as musical depth. No doubt I'll be as fugue obsessed as you soon.

[j_menz]

Except maybe rach, since in his case it would be just his playing..   

I must say, I really hope he hasn't played hanon at some point when he could've just played inventions which he chose to avoid out of a dislike for bach.

Don't believe he's played them, think he jumped in at the P&F level. May explain a lot.

No doubt I'll be as fugue obsessed as you soon.

Haha, another satisfied convert. Just like you and jazz all over. 

[ajspiano]

Just like you and jazz all over. 

And having an impact on jazz as far as improvised contrapuntal LH lines.

Win.

Though that may be heavily to do with improvising on the inventions rather than just playing them as is.

*Bach scholars everywhere just gave up all hope on me.

[csano]

I hate hannon and all other non - musical practice pieces because I feel like I'd rather work on other musical pieces and improve.
I also hate hannon because I was forced to do it when I was taking lessons.
That's why I do concert etudes

and about my technical ability, my first clasical major piece was moonlight sonata, and then la campanella, and la campanella took me two months of maybe about 15 minute practices, so my entire technical ability is based off La Campanella... That probably explains why I suck at fast finger sections (which is why I tried Chopin and utterly failed except for Fantasie Impromptu)

and @ j_menz , I am self - taught now but I definitely do not stop a piece right after I learned the notes unless I started to get bored of the piece ,which I would return later and finish up. Besides, I go to youtube and listen to usually three interpretations of the section I'm practicing and try to take parts of the interpretations that I like, so by the time I memorize it, I usually have the musicality too.

I'm just looking for, as ajspiano said, works that would help me get my finger movements as good as my other technical abilities.

I'll try Bach (tbh, I've never even attempted Bach because the sheet musics of his, that I saw had so many counterpoint and I felt it'll be annoying to read the sheet) I don't hate Bach, I just didn't bother playing Bach because I had other pieces I wanted to play

[ajspiano]

I'll try Bach (tbh, I've never even attempted Bach because the sheet musics of his, that I saw had so many counterpoint and I felt it'll be annoying to read the sheet)

consider learning in this order.. assuming you like the pieces.

Minuet in G minor. (Petzold) - should be very easy.
Bouree in E minor - still pretty easy
Invention 1 in C major
Invention 4 in D minor
Invention 7 in E minor.

Reevaluate progress and decide on new pieces, including more bach.

If you started with la campanella (batshit insane) and have limited teaching you are probably heavily inclined to stretch your fingers all over the place. Stop that. Stop it now - it will impact your fingers facility to move. The bach will help with this as it encourages a good hand position.

[j_menz]

*Bach scholars everywhere just gave up all hope on me.

Bach himself, I'm afraid, would probably have approved. 

[ajspiano]

Bach himself, I'm afraid, would probably have approved. 

I know - which makes it all the more disgusting.

[j_menz]

That's why I do concert etudes
...

works that would help me get my finger movements as good as my other technical abilities.

All I was suggesting is that there were significant gaps in your technique, which appears to be the problem you have recognised.

Apart form the Bach already listed, you might consider the Chopin etudes (start with the Trois Nouvelles Etudes). Additionally, some Clementi sonatas would be very valuable (and quite charming).

[csano]

should I even bother to memorize the pieces if I don't plan to play it in front of people? Because looking at the sheet music and hearing it, I feel like I'll play it to my satisfaction before memorizing it

[ajspiano]

should I even bother to memorize the pieces if I don't plan to play it in front of people? Because looking at the sheet music and hearing it, I feel like I'll play it to my satisfaction before memorizing it

Well j_menz doesnt memorise anything as far as I'm aware.. 

where as I memorise everything.

Whatever works for you.

[csano]

Well j_menz doesnt memorise anything as far as I'm aware.. 

where as I memorise everything.

Whatever works for you.

alright thanks, I'll do that and go through some of the wtc, especially the fugues

[j_menz]

Well j_menz doesnt memorise anything as far as I'm aware.. 

True.  That said, I don't have any use for it.

If you plan on performing, or entering exams/competitions/auditions where memorisation is conventional or required, you may consider memorising here to be useful practice for that.

[ajspiano]

alright thanks, I'll do that and go through some of the wtc, especially the fugues

For the record, while you will be using them for technique, and its not overly problematic to skip some of them..

The Inventions and Sinfonias were designed to be learnt in a specific order as compositional exercises. If thats something you wish to pursue you may consider properly researching how to go about the study of these, and in what order. AND, they are a semi prerequisite for the WTC, atleast the inventions are anyway.

^the first 3 out of the order I've given you already.

[j_menz]

alright thanks, I'll do that and go through some of the wtc, especially the fugues

Do the inventions first. Seriously.  I love a good fugue as much as anyone (and a great deal more than most), but you won't do yourself any favours by jumping into them without a good basic understanding of how counterpoint is played. Do the inventions first.

[csano]

alright, and when I said about the memorizing, I just planned to play those pieces as exercises, and not as pieces (although I do notice that even for a Baroque dis-liker like me, some pieces are worth memorizing), and if it's a hard enough piece, I'd be forced to play until I memorize it, so I'll probably memorize a good chunk of the latter pieces

[ajspiano]

I just planned to play those pieces as exercises

The primary reason to do those pieces is that like hanon, they'll help with your fingerwork, but unlike hanon, they are not just exercises - they have actual musical value and can be treated as such.

Don't leave out the music. If you do you might as well just go play the hanon.

[csano]

The primary reason to do those pieces is that like hanon, they'll help with your fingerwork, but unlike hanon, they are not exercises - they have real musical value.

Don't leave out the music. If you do you might as well just go play the hanon.

that's a slip of words, I ment exercises as in after I master the piece (technically and musically), I'll move on without ever playing it again unless I really liked it

[ajspiano]

that's a slip of words, I ment exercises as in after I master the piece (technically and musically), I'll move on without ever playing it again unless I really liked it

That may be a fair choice..

However, they say that chopin carried the WTC with him everywhere. They arent the kind of pieces you drop.

Chopin isnt the only romantic composer that noticed their extreme level of value either.

EDIT:
I also personally find it really hard to permanently drop a piece..  but then I don't really 'master' a piece unless I do like it.. The 2 states, mastery and enjoyment of the music kind of feed off each other. You can't have one without the other.