Chopin Etudes and Nocturnes

[chopin2015]

Am currently working on a couple of etudes, not worried about those too much.
But the Nocturnes, it seems like they each might take some time to truly have the left hand and right hand play beautifully and individually at the same time, with rubato. What do you all think and what has been your experience/ what etudes or nocturnes do you play?

[fftransform]

My experience with Chopin's etudes is that the majority of people who claim to play them can't even play chopsticks, particularly people who claim them to be easier than the nocturnes.

[chopin2015]

Funny, someone showed me how to play chopsticks the other day...but that is not what I asked. What Nocturnes do you play? I am working on winter wind and rev etude, which are not hard at all if you take them bit by bit.

[pytheamateur]

I play two of his Etudes: Op10 No3 and Op25 No12.

My favourite nocturne so far is Op27 No2.  This is the nocturne that I can play best.  I am learning new things about it all the time.  I'd be happy play it for the rest of my life.  The only downside to it is that it can be very draining emotionally at times. 

I've also dabbled with a few others, such as Op9 Nos 1 and 2, Op Post in C sharp minor, and the one in F sharp minor.

[chopin2015]

Awesome! That is the one I am working on right now, Op 27 no 2.  I really love op 15 no 2.
Thanks for the reply!

[j_menz]

I've played all the nocturnes to a greater or lesser extent. I keep going back to them and finding new things in them, and their musical depth should not be underestimated.

Technically, they are generally easier than the etudes, though I've mostly only dabbled with those. (on my LOTTD)

[ajspiano]

Stalking you again j_menz. Happy 1000th post by the way.

I find the notion that the etudes are easier than the nocturnes a little bit hilarious.. maybe thats just me.

Most people who say they can play the etudes can actually only scramble through the notes with limited control and below tempo..  by contrast to that I've seen complete beginners who fell in love with an easier nocturne produce a reasonably acceptable performance.

Maybe thats a reflection of the fact that someone drawn to nocturnes may be more "musically" orientated, where as someone getting excited about etudes just wants to play fast and impress someone..

[j_menz]

Stalking you again j_menz. Happy 1000th post by the way.

Damn, and I didn't even notice it.  (Never been good with anniversaries)

I find the notion that the etudes are easier than the nocturnes a little bit hilarious.. maybe thats just me.

Most people who say they can play the etudes can actually only scramble through the notes with limited control and below tempo..  by contrast to that I've seen complete beginners who fell in love with an easier nocturne produce a reasonably acceptable performance.

Maybe thats a reflection of the fact that someone drawn to nocturnes may be more "musically" orientated, where as someone getting excited about etudes just wants to play fast and impress someone..

Chopin's Etudes are generally pretty musical, though most renditions are pretty poor on this front.  Some of the nocturnes are reasonably hard and  48/2 (is it? - the one with the doppio movimento bit) is harder than some of the easier etudes technically, at least to my hands.

There seems to be a whole school of thought out there that values technical difficulty above all else, and its pursuit has produced some of the most appalling performances of things I've ever heard. Chopin's (and Liszt's and various other's) etudes are something you can get excited about because they have some great music in them. Too many people seem to forget that aspect.

[ajspiano]

Chopin's Etudes are generally pretty musical, though most renditions are pretty poor on this front.  Some of the nocturnes are reasonably hard and  48/2 (is it? - the one with the doppio movimento bit) is harder than some of the easier etudes technically, at least to my hands.

I agree there are certainly some tough nocturnes, - its personal anyway. I do think though that if the objective was a musically satisfactory performance of the entire set then the etudes is a much bigger technical ball breaker than is the nocturnes, and this would apply to pretty much anyone. Of course I'm not even half way into either set so my vote isn't one of an expert.. I've also dabbled with more etudes than with nocturnes, maybe I'm bias?

There seems to be a whole school of thought out there that values technical difficulty above all else, and its pursuit has produced some of the most appalling performances of things I've ever heard.

Yes, unfortunate, since the chopin etudes only made such an impact and have stood the test of time because they are musically brilliant, though their technical difficulty can make them very difficult to pull off musically, since I gather a great many pianists resort to just accepting that they will feel tense when performing them.

....

I still keep grade 1/2 material in my repertoire because the pieces are musically moving. Its unfortunate that many pianists see this as pointless.

...Not to mention, if pianists really learnt everything that can be learnt through the proper study of lower grade material, rather than rushing on to blistering concert works, they would not have nearly as much trouble with them.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I've screwed around with almost every Chopin etude but only kinda finished one.  I was able to play all of Op. 25 No. 12 for a day but then I forgot it.  I was also going to learn Op. 10 No. 12 but then I stopped half way because I didn't really like it anymore.  I've tried to be nice to these guys, but they show some animosity towards me.  We don't get along really well...

The same thing with the nocturnes.  I've screwed around with almost all of them but the only ones I actually played completely were No. 20 in C# minor and Op. 55 No. 1.  I only had Op. 55 No. 1 for like three days then I forgot it.  I like the nocturnes better better than the etudes, but they still don't like me very much.  

So the only one I can actually play all the way through now is the Nocturne in C# minor.  Whenever I get a "play a song for me!", I usually play this one because everyone likes it!  They'll think that I'm god and kiss my feet.

[ajspiano]

for the record,

Etudes I've dabbled with either extensively or atleast more than just read through are..

Op 10, 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,12
Op 25, 1,2,6,7 10,11,12

...at this stage I'm satisfied with none of them.

Nocturnes I've mostly just read through a few times, which is largely a reflection of the fact that I found them a great deal easier than the etudes on average, I had to spend more time with etudes to get an idea of them..

No doubt I'll spend copious amounts of time on nocturnes sooner or later though when I endeavor to learn a few properly.

[chopin2015]

Nocturnes are really beautiful musically and technically, and even if they are easier than etudes I agree that a lot of people can say they are easy but still underestimate many things about a piece even if they play many etudes or whatever.  Such is the case of many egos.

[ajspiano]

people can say they are easy but still underestimate many things about a piece even if they play many etudes or whatever.

This is certainly common.. perhaps I came across that way even? I don't consider the nocturnes easy, just easier than the etudes... as a generalization on the entire set (which is probably a daft way to look at them anyway)

All music has its challenges if you intend to play it at a truly high standard, whatever the grading is..

[j_menz]

I've tried to be nice to these guys, but they show some animosity towards me.  We don't get along really well...

You appear to be accumulating quite a collection of composers who have it in for you. Are you being rude to them, or something?

They'll think that I'm god and kiss my feet.

I hope you wash them after skateboarding.  

[chopin2015]

All music has its challenges if you intend to play it at a truly high standard, whatever the grading is..

I definitely think that playing a piece below a certain standard is like trying to speak the language of music but not having a grand vocabulary to express what you need, or a poor way of paraphrasing a composer's writing....ya know?

Etudes are supposed to be very difficult, for technical exercise and of course they are musically beautiful too...they naturally must take a longer time to master! I will agree with that!

-J

[j_menz]

I definitely think that playing a piece below a certain standard is like trying to speak the language of music but not having a grand vocabulary to express what you need, or a poor way of paraphrasing a composer's writing....ya know?

Have a look at some very late Liszt. You may change your mind.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You appear to be accumulating quite a collection of composers who have it in for you. Are you being rude to them, or something?

I don't know why Chopin hates me!  

Chopin just hates everyone!  I've heard that quite a bit  Especially Liszt!  Liszt loved Chopin and tried to chill with him some times but Chopin was so unfriendly towards him!  I heard he even made fun of Liszt behind his back what the heck?!  Maybe it's because Beethoven taught Liszt and he thought that Liszt didn't live up to Beethoven's greatness or something?  Maybe Liszt's music was too masculine for him?  That's still no excuse to be so rude!

Maybe it's because I like Liszt.  Liszt and I go waaaaaaaay back!  So  I guess that to Chopin, friends of his enemies are his enemies as well.

[j_menz]

I don't know why Chopin hates me!  

Chopin just hates everyone! 

LOL. I've always felt he didn't like me much either.

Chopin had a bit of a nasty streak and could be quite childish in his personal relationships. Georges Sand usded to refer to him as one of her children. 

He actually quite admired Liszt's playing.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

He actually quite admired Liszt's playing.

That's not what I've heard...

[ajspiano]

That's not what I've heard...

The first set (Op. 10) is dedicated to Franz Liszt, about whom Chopin reportedly said with regard to the études: “I wish I could steal from him the way he plays them.”

Says PS music section..

[j_menz]

The first set (Op. 10) is dedicated to Franz Liszt, about whom Chopin reportedly said with regard to the études: “I wish I could steal from him the way he plays them.”

Says PS music section..

Actually, he wrote it. He was writing a letter while Liszt was visiting and playing through them and he put that bit in the letter. The original still exists, so we have it in his own hand.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The first set (Op. 10) is dedicated to Franz Liszt, about whom Chopin reportedly said with regard to the études: “I wish I could steal from him the way he plays them.”

Says PS music section..

WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!

I thought Liszt's admiration for Chopin was one sided!

[pytheamateur]

I've screwed around with almost every Chopin etude but only kinda finished one.  I was able to play all of Op. 25 No. 12 for a day but then I forgot it.  I was also going to learn Op. 10 No. 12 but then I stopped half way because I didn't really like it anymore.  I've tried to be nice to these guys, but they show some animosity towards me.  We don't get along really well...

The same thing with the nocturnes.  I've screwed around with almost all of them but the only ones I actually played completely were No. 20 in C# minor and Op. 55 No. 1.  I only had Op. 55 No. 1 for like three days then I forgot it.  I like the nocturnes better better than the etudes, but they still don't like me very much.  

I don't know why Chopin hates me! 

Chopin is not a man of easy virtue, nor are his children.  They are expecting some commitment from you.  Time to get married and settle down?

[asuhayda]

Hey!

My favorite Etude of all time is No. 4 in C# minor... I think it's crazy hard!  No.2 will put you in the hospital as well (although they are all pretty difficult).

I played but Nocturnes, but my favorite was in c (which I think was published posthumously)... I love that one. It's absolutely beautiful.

Also, I know you're only asking about Etudes and Nocturnes, but don't overlook some of his Preludes...  The "Hades" prelude is ridiculous!!  That is one piece that I am not ashamed to say is too hard for me!  Martha Agerich recorded it and it's unbelievable.

Good luck!

[ajspiano]

The "Hades" prelude is ridiculous!!

I've been fooling around with that one lately - I should probably get a bit more committed. Its easily my favourite of the set.

No. 8 in F# minor is not too far behind though..

[wilsonl]

Yeah, I'm also learning Nocture op.27 no.2
I'm prefer to take Rubinstein's interpretation as I watch from Youtube. And also woth rubato tempo. I like to play calm on L.H. but with sweet pressure and not too loud (dolce).

[davidjosepha]

I hate Chopin because of all the ornaments (at least in the things I've played from him). I do all right with trills if they're long because then you don't have to have them quite as fast or rhythmic and you have time to get into it, but when he adds a trill in one of his 11-note scale patterns (eg in nocturne 19), I just want to die. I can end up playing it all right, but I can't get the trills in time so I have to shorten all the other notes in the streak in order to keep the entire swoosh of notes with my left hand.

Also, Chopin's music is very feminine, I think. I don't know if that's the right way to describe it, but it just doesn't make me feel any more confident in my manhood when I play it 

[landru]

but when he adds a trill in one of his 11-note scale patterns (eg in nocturne 19), I just want to die.

I know! When I run across these things I start talking to the score "REALLY? REALLY?! Are you serious? Now you're just being a brat!"