What should be the priorities for an advanced piano student?

[pianoplayer1224]

I am a serious ARCT (RCM's highest level) student and am wondering what my piano teacher should be helping me with most.
At my lesson, the teacher tends to spend a lot of time writing in fingering especially on pieces by J.S. Bach, without allowing me very much input at all. Is this usually what's done or should I be figuring this out on my own?
Also, on average how much repertoire should be covered in a year, being that I practice daily for about three hours?
Finally, should every piece learned be completely memorized even if it is not going to be performed in public or on an exam?

Thanks

[jaradi]

Instead of starting a separate thread, I'd like to pipe in with a related question.

What are some indicators one can use to tell if they are a "late intermediate" or "early advanced student?

[49410enrique]

i'm of the sentiment that what will help 'advanced' performers continue to improve is a move to really hone and refine the fundamentals. that is, look at what the top/best are really known for, though the flash fanfare is what gets attention, it is actually their flawless execution of the basics. that is like the old definition of virtuosity staes (not official but one i hear again and again in coaching circles), it is uncommon creativity coupled with flawless fundamentals. become an expert beginner again. really make sure you can consistently and intuitively figure out fingerings inBach  (i.e your example), be able to master basic techniuqe patterns to an almost 'perfect' excecution, consistently.

on repertoire, it is not just about being able to pony up to harder (techinically) and more difficult (musically) pieces but also, to what level of refinement can you perform what are considered 'easier' works? you should be visiting pieces in the lower levels of 'difficulty' and striving to be able to learn and interpret them to a very high level , with minimal if any input/instruction.

learn to be able to cover pieces at your current level to an appropriate standard of quality but strive to be able to do that while concurrently working a larger and more diverse set of pieces in the repertoire.

learn to learn pieces faster, i.e. faster memorization, faster internalization of musical concepts and getting them performances ready in a more compressed learning time window.

focus and practice most on those things you suck the most at.

this isn't menat to be some treatise or doctrine on the subject but it is what I have in my mind for myself and as I navigate the post 'early advanced' stages of my own development.

take what you will from it. good luck and welcome to the community!

[pianoplayer1224]

Thanks for your input. So in other words, most piano teachers do not give their students much fingering for their pieces? Being that in a year, I will be entering university and therefore changing teachers. I'm trying to figure out a way to become more independant when learning pieces and am wondering if my teacher is sort of holding me back from this.

[49410enrique]

Thanks for your input. So in other words, most piano teachers do not give their students much fingering for their pieces? Being that in a year, I will be entering university and therefore changing teachers. I'm trying to figure out a way to become more independant when learning pieces and am wondering if my teacher is sort of holding me back from this.

you'll eventually discover 'fingering' is highly individual sometimes (though there are certainly times when you'll want to follow fingering conventions as much as possible!).
 

go w what your teacher does and on your own simply to try figure some out on your own. you're not being neccessarily held back. it's simply a skill that must be practiced like any other.  sitting down and finding out a fingering and writting it into your score, then later as you progress thorugh the piece making a decision to revise or not (based on what the music tells you you need to do), etc. is all part of the process. you 'll discover what you like personally that maybe many editors or conventions don't do. that's okay to so long as you bring out the music the best you can (that is the fingering doesn't hold you back) and you don't hurt yourself w needlessly awkward hand and finger positions.

but yes you should be working on thinking how the hand will handle all sorts of 'unmarked' passage work and such. sometiems you'll just put the important finger on the score i.e. write a 1 or a 5 on a black note which we almost always do not do, but if the music neccessitates it, so be it.

or in some instances you may find you write out each and every fingering for each note in certain long fast passage work.

the main thing to remember is to always think, how does the hand naturally fall over the keyboard section w the said notes in question. how can i play this easily and expressively without using unnatural hand shapes so as to minimize tension, increase control , etc.

[krajcher]

I am a serious ARCT (RCM's highest level) student and am wondering what my piano teacher should be helping me with most.
At my lesson, the teacher tends to spend a lot of time writing in fingering especially on pieces by J.S. Bach, without allowing me very much input at all. Is this usually what's done or should I be figuring this out on my own?

I think you have bad teacher.

[ajspiano]

A little while ago a guy came in here and spammed (though I think that wasnt really hit intent, seemed kind of genuine) his book a bit, no idea of the quality as I never really looked at it..

https://pianofingering.tripod.com/


In the mean time, you could start with some scale passages in keys like E major, Ab major, B major, Db major..

^and consider the basic principle of long fingers (2,3,4) on black keys, short fingers (1,5) on white keys...   for the record, you'll soon find reasons to break this, its not a rule..  but its a start.

[j_menz]

I am a serious ARCT (RCM's highest level) student and am wondering what my piano teacher should be helping me with most.

I would think the things that you are worst at (don't worry, we all have them). What they are, you and/or your teacher are probably better placed than me to know.

[fleetfingers]

i'm of the sentiment that what will help 'advanced' performers continue to improve is a move to really hone and refine the fundamentals. that is, look at what the top/best are really known for, though the flash fanfare is what gets attention, it is actually their flawless execution of the basics. that is like the old definition of virtuosity staes (not official but one i hear again and again in coaching circles), it is uncommon creativity coupled with flawless fundamentals. become an expert beginner again. really make sure you can consistently and intuitively figure out fingerings inBach  (i.e your example), be able to master basic techniuqe patterns to an almost 'perfect' excecution, consistently.

on repertoire, it is not just about being able to pony up to harder (techinically) and more difficult (musically) pieces but also, to what level of refinement can you perform what are considered 'easier' works? you should be visiting pieces in the lower levels of 'difficulty' and striving to be able to learn and interpret them to a very high level , with minimal if any input/instruction.

learn to be able to cover pieces at your current level to an appropriate standard of quality but strive to be able to do that while concurrently working a larger and more diverse set of pieces in the repertoire.

learn to learn pieces faster, i.e. faster memorization, faster internalization of musical concepts and getting them performances ready in a more compressed learning time window.

focus and practice most on those things you suck the most at.

this isn't menat to be some treatise or doctrine on the subject but it is what I have in my mind for myself and as I navigate the post 'early advanced' stages of my own development.

take what you will from it. good luck and welcome to the community!

I like these ideas . . . a great list!

[pianoplayjl]

Getting the basics right.

I consider myself an advanced student since I am in G8. To this day my teacher spots elementary mistakes in my playing and I am really embarrased about it. Perhaps I don't belong in G8....

JL

[pianoplayer1224]

Thanks to all for the interesting comments and tips. I agree with the fact that to be truly advanced you must master the basics completely and independantly which I am striving to do.

Being that I'm new to Pianostreet I should have introduced myself. I have been playing piano for twelve years (just a few years short from my whole life) and working towards my RCM ARCT diploma. I plan to study music in the future. 
This year I have been working on Debussy's Sunken Cathedral and Pour le Piano Prelude, Chopin Etudes (especially op.10,no.12 and op.25 no.9) and Nocturne (op. 48, no.1) , Brahms' op.118 Ballade, Bartok's Roumanian Dance op.8a, Beethoven's Pathetique, Bach (P&F and Partita no.1), Mozart K331 and other things as well.