Chopin Scherzos Difficulties

[scherzo123]

Hello! I have difficulties with the middle section of Chopin's Scherzo No.2, where all those nasty arpeggios are. Does anybody have any tips on tackling that? I would also like to know if there are any other difficulties on that scherzo besides rhythm.

Aside from the Scherzo No.2, I've been looking forward to tackling the first and third scherzo by Chopin. Does anybody have any tips on those two pieces? Any difficulties to look out for? If you played them before, can you please share your experience? Thank you!

[philb]

Here's how I would rank them, of course it's very subjective and probably will not mean anything in your case.

Least to most difficult:

3,2,1,4

Depending on how fast you plan on playing, you might change it. Playing Scherzo 1 at 112-120 is proving to be a nightmare.

[scherzo123]

I plan to play it in normal speed.

[scherzo123]

...any other suggestions?

[fftransform]

The general consensus is that their difficulty is in reverse order of their numbering, i.e. No. 4 is the most difficult and No. 1 is the easiest.  I do not like the first three Scherzi, but as for No. 3, here is an interpretation that I like very much.  Perhaps it can inspire you:

[ahinton]

The general consensus is that their difficulty is in reverse order of their numbering, i.e. No. 4 is the most difficult and No. 1 is the easiest.

That's interesting; I've heard that said here before but was unaware that it's considered to be a general consensus and (albeit from the self-confessed standpoint of a non-pianist whose pricipal pianistic activity has been writing for the insrument) I'd have thought it to be (at least from the standpont of mécanique) the easiest (at least to the extnt that any of the four are "easy"). I loathe the idea of comparing the "difficulties" of pieces for reasons that anyone who's read me on the subject will know and hopefully understand but, if gun were put to head on this one, I'd have said that the easiest 4, then 2, then 1, then 3, but what do I know?!...

I do not like the first three Scherzi

Just as a matter of curiosity, why is that? It's interesting that you appear to feel differently about 4, especially because 4 is itself more different to the others than the others are to one another.

I find the near-violence in 1 interesting - not merely in terms of the content of its outer sections per se or even the reiterated dissonant chord towards its end but in the sheer extent of the contrast between these sections and the middle one. 3 begins almost atonally (or at least in a state of tonal uncertainty. All 4 - most especially the first three, perhaps - are excellent illustrations that the composer was the very opposite of the perpetrator of the kind of music that once used to attract performances of the kind that Sorabji once deprecatingly called "drawing-room-languishing Chopin"; perhaps mindful of this, a composer and pianist that I know who attended classes given by Peter Maxwell Davies years ago particularly recalls his references to some of Chopin's music as being far more "strong, big-boned and muscular" than many people considered it to be.

I love all four of them - although I imagine that I've already made that rather obvious!...

Best,

Alistair

[chopin2015]

I like 1 and am working on it. It does not take long to memorize, just make sure to catch all the little  marks in each section that are subtle for variety, but aside from that, the middle section is beautifully sung, and I love anything with a aggressive final section! Happy studies!

[danhuyle]

Rhythm, tempo and evenness are the difficulties of the 4 Scherzi.

The arpeggios of Scherzo no2 aren't that bad.

Anyway, in response to the question, rather than write a long post, I created a blog post detailing my personal experience and the challenges I faced with the 4 Scherzi.

https://www.empowernetwork.com/successwithdan/chopin-scherzo-too-hard/

The 2nd theme of Scherzo in B minor is annoying to say the least. I can play it in strict time and it sounds no good. I can play Scherzo #1 at 92 per bar. I haven't gone above that. Same with 2,3. 4th scherzo, where you have those quaver runs, I can handle it at 80-88 per bar in practice. Playing through the whole thing, I can handle it at 80. It's sufficient.

[scherzo123]

Rhythm, tempo and evenness are the difficulties of the 4 Scherzi.

The arpeggios of Scherzo no2 aren't that bad.

Anyway, in response to the question, rather than write a long post, I created a blog post detailing my personal experience and the challenges I faced with the 4 Scherzi.

https://www.empowernetwork.com/successwithdan/chopin-scherzo-too-hard/

The 2nd theme of Scherzo in B minor is annoying to say the least. I can play it in strict time and it sounds no good. I can play Scherzo #1 at 92 per bar. I haven't gone above that. Same with 2,3. 4th scherzo, where you have those quaver runs, I can handle it at 80-88 per bar in practice. Playing through the whole thing, I can handle it at 80. It's sufficient.

Do you mean the con anima part that is on the second page? Is it the part that sounds very beautiful and soothing?

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

Do you mean the con anima part that is on the second page? Is it the part that sounds very beautiful and soothing?

Pretty sure that's the one he means    ...Oh well, is there anything truer than that little saying that goes 'to each their own'? ^^ 
I mean, goodness, to me that's actually one of the best bits of the whole Scherzo along with that ultraviolent ending  (ha, 'A clockwork orange', anyone? )

Best,
Musikalischer Wirbelwind

[danhuyle]

Yep, the con anima on the 2nd and 3rd page. I've got Edition Peters. If you can interpret that, then kudos to you.

Why not learn the entire set? I had the technical aspects down before I took lessons with a teacher. Great set to use for rhythm practice.

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

Yep, the con anima on the 2nd and 3rd page. I've got Edition Peters. If you can interpret that, then kudos to you.

Why not learn the entire set? I had the technical aspects down before I took lessons with a teacher. Great set to use for rhythm practice.

Ha, cheers for those kudos, I was needing some since last week 

And I agree with you, learning the entire set is a very good idea since they all have a charm of their own

Musikalischer Wirbelwind

[pianoman53]

Why not learn the entire set? I had the technical aspects down before I took lessons with a teacher. Great set to use for rhythm practice.

Cause to get them to an actual standard takes time. Not the "I memorized it in too weeks"-standard, but actually playable.
...

To tackle the arpeggios, I would first play them slowly very legato. While you do that, I would find an angle where your arm doesn't have to move a lot. Also, focus on the phrasing. A small crescendo on the 4 up going notes, and a very small diminuendo on the ones that goes down.
Is it your first big piece? Then don't believe some "methods" from a member here, that you can learn the piece in an hour. It's not learning.
You can also practice light staccato. both with only fingers and with the arm.

[beebert]

Easiest is probably No 2. No 4 is supposed to be the hardest, and the one most think is "the best". No 4 being the best though is something I completely cannot understand. Can someone tell me what they like about it? For the moment I find it extremely boring.

[david456103]

^yeah, I agree. The fourth scherzo is pretty boring. My favorite by far is the 2nd. It is one of my favorite romantic pieces. The 1st is okay, the 3rd is super annoying.
When you finish playing the second scherzo, you should be ready to tackle any of the other scherzos, so pick your favorite.