My 3-4 trill is my strongest trill.....

[jugular]

Most people I know have a really strong 2-3 and 1-3 trill, but for me those trill combos are weaker in comparison to 3-4. It just feels more natural to me, as I have better endurance with it and can get a better trill sound with those fingers. I've been working on other trill combos to be more consistent with them, but 3-4 still remains my strongest.

Is anyone else like this? Or do you have a "weird" trill combo that's stronger than the most common ones? I'm still waiting to see a 4-5 trill master appear one day, haha.

[danielekstrom]

Well lucky you

I've heard different things about trill preferences. Some people do really well with 3-5 trills, or in general trills that are separated by one finger. Everyone's different. I'm best with 2-3 and 2-4 trills. But I think it really depends on the type of trill/mordent. This is one thing that I've really been working to improve lately. It's one of those things that is really a pain to get going, but once you're able to do it on demand, you can't do it enough.

[landru]

3-4 is my "go-to" trill as well. 1-3 is awkward for me. And 4-5 is doable but only if absolutely have to.

[scherzo123]

For me...

Strongest

2-3
1-3
2-4
3-4
3-5
4-5 (Doable, but my last pick)

Weakest

[outin]

1-3 is awkward for me.

I cannot trill at all with my thumb. I wonder if it is because my palm and 2-4 fingers are long in proportion and I cannot completely straighten my thumb on the 2nd joint? My teacher has tried to show me but so far no progress. To even try I have to twist my hand in a weird way. Do you think it's my hand shape or should I be able to lean this as well?

I feel any combination without the thumb is doable, I just need practice.

[landru]

Outln, I have a weird thumb as well, but in the opposite way of you - it hyperextends at the tip from the joint. It drives my teacher crazy because she thinks I am flexing it wrong. I keep telling her that to me it feels totally natural. It weirds her out so much that she hates giving me fast pieces to practice since "the thumb will just get in the way."

Though that might be the reason that thumb trills feel uncomfortable, my hyperextension is getting in the way if I don't concentrate.

[outin]

Outln, I have a weird thumb as well, but in the opposite way of you - it hyperextends at the tip from the joint. It drives my teacher crazy because she thinks I am flexing it wrong. I keep telling her that to me it feels totally natural. It weirds her out so much that she hates giving me fast pieces to practice since "the thumb will just get in the way."

Though that might be the reason that thumb trills feel uncomfortable, my hyperextension is getting in the way if I don't concentrate.

When I try to straighten my right thumb the nail joint also hyperextends... It took me quite a while to even be able to play properly with it, but it is better now. The biggest issue is that I still cannot really play a proper octave with my right hand, because I would need my thumb to strech a bit more. An octave with my right hand feels as a 9th on my left (which is really streching to the limit). It's frustrating because I can use my other hand to straigthen the joint and get the extra cm needed, but I cannot do it with my muscles. I have tried all kinds of thumb exercises, but I can see little change. So I try to find pieces that have octaves or big chords on the left hand only

[catherinezng]

Wow, I'm exactly the same! I agree completely 3-4 feels really natural for me. Perhaps this is because I have small hands? haha

[werq34ac]

EEEK you people are weird.

Anatomically, the 3rd and 4th fingers are actually connected making it quite awkward to trill with. I mean, I can pull it off, but it feels funny.


Most comfortable to least comfortable trills
1-3 (my strongest trill)
2-3
1-2
2-4
3-5
3-4
4-5 (dear god I can't do this trill at all -.-) Like seriously, my 13-25 (thirds trill) is better than my 4-5 trill

Anyway, For those having issues with the thumbs, the reason that most people recommend this trill if possible is because it allows you to make use of the rotation of the wrist. The point of the 2-4 and the 3-5 trill is usually because it allows you to make use of wrist rotation.

Outln, I have a weird thumb as well, but in the opposite way of you - it hyperextends at the tip from the joint. It drives my teacher crazy because she thinks I am flexing it wrong. I keep telling her that to me it feels totally natural. It weirds her out so much that she hates giving me fast pieces to practice since "the thumb will just get in the way."

Though that might be the reason that thumb trills feel uncomfortable, my hyperextension is getting in the way if I don't concentrate.

Your teacher isn't wrong. When your thumb is hyperextended, it adds a lot of tension to the thumb under technique. Try it. It's much easier to bend your thumb when you move your thumb under your fingers than to keep it hyper-extended. Essentially, your thumb does get in the way when you do thumb under.

[nyiregyhazi]

Your teacher isn't wrong. When your thumb is hyperextended, it adds a lot of tension to the thumb under technique. Try it. It's much easier to bend your thumb when you move your thumb under your fingers than to keep it hyper-extended. Essentially, your thumb does get in the way when you do thumb under.

I can't agree at all. I wouldn't say never move a bent thumb under, but it easily causes a sense of tightening all over the place- if you bend it for the sake of doing so. It easily isolates the thumb too much. When the thumb stays naturally quite straight (neither willfully bent nor extended until it sounds the key), it helps you ensure that the arm is carrying it across adequately- without tightness in the thumb.

[csano]

3-4 is also my strongest trill, La Campanella and Silvery Waves trained me that way, also 1-2 trill

[werq34ac]

I can't agree at all. I wouldn't say never move a bent thumb under, but it easily causes a sense of tightening all over the place- if you bend it for the sake of doing so. It easily isolates the thumb too much. When the thumb stays naturally quite straight (neither willfully bent nor extended until it sounds the key), it helps you ensure that the arm is carrying it across adequately- without tightness in the thumb.

His thumb isn't straight. It's hyper-extended. Try hyper extending your thumb and whilst keeping it hyper extended, try to do the thumb under. Essentially, your thumb gets in the way.

[landru]

I'm the guy with the hyperextended thumb. I think werq34ac and nyiregyhazi are both kinda right. Yes my thumb does get in the way on fast, "thumb under" passages as my teacher and werq say. it gets in the way because it's natural, resting position is hyperextended. I have to flex or tense my thumb to get it into nearly everybody's normal thumb position. And that is where nyiregyhazi is kinda right - that when I have to bend it to "normal", it causes tension. The hyperextension is totally tension-free - that is just the way it rests. And when it is hyperextended I sometimes have to compensate with my wrist to twist the thumb-pad to hit only one key. Argghh!

But yes my teacher is correct that when I have a loose "compact" hand (figures bent on the keys, the thumb oriented towards the palm of my hand), things can get a lot easier. The problem is that I have to teach my hand to do what comes naturally to other people!

Enough about my weird hand - back to trills! And yes my preferred 3-4 trill does come from the wrist rotation, not just the fingers. I only really could do trills once I learned how to loosen up and "shake" my wrist when needed.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm the guy with the hyperextended thumb. I think werq34ac and nyiregyhazi are both kinda right. Yes my thumb does get in the way on fast, "thumb under" passages as my teacher and werq say. it gets in the way because it's natural, resting position is hyperextended. I have to flex or tense my thumb to get it into nearly everybody's normal thumb position. And that is where nyiregyhazi is kinda right - that when I have to bend it to "normal", it causes tension. The hyperextension is totally tension-free - that is just the way it rests. And when it is hyperextended I sometimes have to compensate with my wrist to twist the thumb-pad to hit only one key. Argghh!

But yes my teacher is correct that when I have a loose "compact" hand (figures bent on the keys, the thumb oriented towards the palm of my hand), things can get a lot easier. The problem is that I have to teach my hand to do what comes naturally to other people!

Enough about my weird hand - back to trills! And yes my preferred 3-4 trill does come from the wrist rotation, not just the fingers. I only really could do trills once I learned how to loosen up and "shake" my wrist when needed.

I'm just curious by what you mean by hyper-extended precisely? Do you mean straight, or severely doubled back? If you mean the former, I keep my own thumb that way virtually all the time- as do many pianists. I don't see why it would cause problems- as long as the thumb points slightly down, with a big wide open space between the thumb and 2nd finger. Only if that space closes up (particularly if the thumb lifts itself up in the air) would I see any problem. The only time I actively bend my thumb slightly is in preparation to straighten it during a key depression. Eliminating the idea of a thumb that is supposed to "grip" has done me a world of good and got rid of countless unwanted efforts.

If you mean the joint doubles back, I'd have to say it's unlikely to be truly tension free- even if it seems that way. Something has to be pulling it into that position- probably in compensation for a general lack of stability. I'm wondering whether you extend your thumb in a way that points it down- or whether it wanders up and away? I think it's much more do with where the thumb is aimed than a case of an extension activity being a bad thing. For me, bending the thumb can help the thumb get into a good position under the palm, but it's not actually necessary, as long the thumb is indeed finding its way under the palm. That's the big issue for me- not whether it's better to be straight or bent.

[landru]

nyiregyhazi: The joint goes back away from the hand. Most people's are straight when extending the hand muscles - my thumb joint naturally bends at the top joint so the thumb hyperextends even more. I need to explicitly engage muscles in my thumb/hand to keep the thumb straight when flexing my hand. Here are pictures. The first one is my hand resting on the keys with my hand muscles slightly opened. The second one is the same, but consciously having to straighten my thumb.

I think it is evident that the second picture is what should happen for better technique, but it one that takes introduces a small amount tension compared to my "default" position.

Sorry for the trill hijack - it is tangentially related since it does affect my thumb trills!

[nyiregyhazi]

nyiregyhazi: The joint goes back away from the hand. Most people's are straight when extending the hand muscles - my thumb joint naturally bends at the top joint so the thumb hyperextends even more. I need to explicitly engage muscles in my thumb/hand to keep the thumb straight when flexing my hand. Here are pictures. The first one is my hand resting on the keys with my hand muscles slightly opened. The second one is the same, but consciously having to straighten my thumb.

I think it is evident that the second picture is what should happen for better technique, but it one that takes introduces a small amount tension compared to my "default" position.

Sorry for the trill hijack - it is tangentially related since it does affect my thumb trills!

Looking at the pictures, I feel 99% sure that it's actually the severe bend in the joint closer to the hand that you should be concerned by- rather than by the extension in the end of your thumb. The second picture actually looks way more troubling to me than the first. I had a student once, who had a very similar looking thumb. Initially, I tried various gripping ideas, but his thumb always had that same awkward looking bend. Apparently it's an anatomical thing called a "curved thumb". However, when I later tried getting him to concentrate on lengthening out his thumb under the palm, it turned out that his thumb could function just fine. The only problem was that he was fusing the joint near to the hand into a cramped position, but when he instead began to lengthen his thumb, there were no more strange looking angles. It just looked like any regular hand. Since then, I rarely teach students to grip inwards with their thumbs at all. It's much simpler when actions are based on lengthening than when they are based on trying to squeeze inwards. You may later need a tiny inward action in the tip alone, but first I'd work on lengthening the thumb out- not closing it up into a stiff position.

I think the big issue is that if the thumb starts as curved as that and relaxes, you need severe efforts to keep it balanced. If it were relaxed, it would get thrown around all over the place. When you strive to lengthen it out (not only at the tip but throughout the whole thumb- feel the thumb's movements beginning right back at the wrist), it's very simple to keep it balanced. All you need to do is maintain a tiny activity to remain not stiff but "taut". When it starts curved, it takes a lot more effort to keep yourself stable. It can only be done with real stiffness.

I've done various thumb exercises- for actions not of closing up the joints but of lengthening them:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

Can your thumb lengthen out like that, or is it not possible to do so?

Also, there's a book by Alan Fraser that is called "all thumbs" that I'd definitely recommend. He calls what you do "inversion"- where the thumb tries to raise itself up to the same height as the knuckles, rather than go down and under the palm. I'd try not to think of thumb as being something that just sits at the side of your hand, but rather as something that goes down and under it.

[werq34ac]

ah I used the wrong word. I don't mean bent, i mean non-hyper-extended. Hyperextending by its definition means that you are using extra muscles (hyper and extending). The thumb should be generally straight or somewhat close to straight. Anything else impedes the up and down movement we use to actually play the key with our thumb.

[nyiregyhazi]

ah I used the wrong word. I don't mean bent, i mean non-hyper-extended. Hyperextending by its definition means that you are using extra muscles (hyper and extending). The thumb should be generally straight or somewhat close to straight. Anything else impedes the up and down movement we use to actually play the key with our thumb.

Yeah, definitely agreed. The thing I'd say in his case though, is that he needs to accept a hyper-extended joint for the time being- until the thumb has first become used to finding it's full length. By trying to compensate for it before having developed the freedom of a straighter thumb, his attempt to avoid hyperextension is adding to a more serious problem by cramping the thumb up even further. I wouldn't worry at all about trying to avoid the hyperextension until the bigger issue of free thumb movement has been sorted out. Also, you see many pianists who actually let their thumbs double back slightly.

[outin]

Looking at the pictures, I feel 99% sure that it's actually the severe bend in the joint closer to the hand that you should be concerned by- rather than by the extension in the end of your thumb.

That is how mine is, even worse than his I think. The bent in the joint is not something I do, it is there naturally when my hand is relaxed. When I try to open my thumb or lengthen it the joint collapses even more. With my left hand the thumb is more flexible and I can now almost lengthen it straight (but not perfectly, the bent is always there). In my right hand I can see some tendons in my palm, which seem to be too short and are pulling the joint. I have been trying to find muscles that I could strech to get the thumb more open, but stretching exercises tend to just cramp the hand more.

Anyway, I have found that learning to flex the nail joint instead of letting it curve the wrong way has generally helped my playing a lot, only the octaves present a problem now...

[nyiregyhazi]

That is how mine is, even worse than his I think. The bent in the joint is not something I do, it is there naturally when my hand is relaxed. When I try to open my thumb or lengthen it the joint collapses even more. With my left hand the thumb is more flexible and I can now almost lengthen it straight (but not perfectly, the bent is always there). In my right hand I can see some tendons in my palm, which seem to be too short and are pulling the joint. I have been trying to find muscles that I could strech to get the thumb more open, but stretching exercises tend to just cramp the hand more.

Can you do the one like example 8 here?

&feature=relmfu

I think the rotation is a big part of it- so the thumb goes under the hand. It's not just about getting longer, but opening the space between the thumb and the hand. I'm just wondering if it's necessarily a flexibility issue, or whether you're simply used to having the thumb to the side- rather than actively opening the space between the thumb and second finger. In the pictures of the other poster, this space has very notably been allowed to droop closed, rather than expanded. Over time, if the space isn't kept open, various muscles can end up working so hard that they basically fuse into place.

If your thumb just doesn't go any straighter after a certain point, it may not necessarily matter if you're completely straightened though. The big issue would be whether the joint is bent due to lack of activity/unnoticed inward gripping, or whether it's bent because it simply doesn't extend any further than where it is. If it's the latter, it could still be relatively stable. However, if it's bent due to excess relaxation, it's pretty much inevitable that the slack would get replaced with severe stiffness, unless the muscles find a simpler way to try to lengthen it out slightly. In the other posters pictures, the thumb is significantly more bent in the second picture- which strongly suggests that he has the capacity to lengthen out that joint, but is instead performing the very opposite activity and closing it into a more cramped position.

Incidentally, I like the feldenkrais idea of never trying to "stretch". This can lead a situation where muscles are just working against each other. If you think of trying to lengthen not with effort but with an attempt to release it, it can be a good deal better than trying to stretch.Instead of trying to overcome one effort with an extra one, sometimes it needs to be more a case of learning to let go of an effort that you may not yet have become consciously aware of. If you can notice the efforts that are initially outside of your awareness, it's much more effective than simply trying to force a stretch.

[outin]

Can you do the one like example 8 here?

&feature=relmfu

Well...yes and no. This type of exercise is exactly what I have been doing to get my thumb more flexible. But when I do it it looks very different because the second joint is still very crooked (or bent or whatever) and the nail joint goes the wrong way...

I suspect the right has become worse partly because of so many years of using the computer mouse for as much as 8-10 hours a day. I cannot remember if my thumbs were like this when I was young, but probably they were, I haven't noticed them changing anyway. I have another  anomaly as well, my 3rds are bent towards the 4th on both hands and they have been like this since I was a kid. So probably they are just made that way. Evolution didn't consider us playing the piano I guess. They have never been any trouble for me before.

If your thumb just doesn't go any straighter after a certain point, it may not necessarily matter if you're completely straightened though. The big issue would be whether the joint is bent due to lack of activity/unnoticed inward gripping, or whether it's bent because it simply doesn't extend any further than where it is. If it's the latter, it could still be relatively stable.

I don't think my thumb is unstable these days, maybe it was in the beginning. Even if bent it works fine as long as I don't need to do larger than 7ths. I don't have trouble with scales either.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think my thumb is unstable these days, maybe it was in the beginning. Even if bent it works fine as long as I don't need to do larger than 7ths. I don't have trouble with scales either.

Yeah, it makes sense. If you're performing the action of extending, it would still work- even if there's not enough range of motion to go further. I think the problem would be where someone has the freedom to straighten their thumb but just doesn't use the action that would extend it. It's not necessarily about the angle, but what actions are taking place.

[landru]

Thanks, nyiregyhazi for the in depth analysis. I've been concentrating on the top joint because I've been aware of its being different for all my life - but I haven't been aware of the other problems. I can't see the youtube videos right now (blocked at work  ), but when I get home I look forward to viewing them.

As far as Feldenkrais, I'm very familiar with the method as it solved some issues I had in my running form! Right now I'm discovering more things about how my thumb moves than I knew before - I'll be working with thinking how it can move longer rather than straighter. Thanks again - and glad to see that outin is getting some illumination as well.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks, nyiregyhazi for the in depth analysis. I've been concentrating on the top joint because I've been aware of its being different for all my life - but I haven't been aware of the other problems. I can't see the youtube videos right now (blocked at work  ), but when I get home I look forward to viewing them.

As far as Feldenkrais, I'm very familiar with the method as it solved some issues I had in my running form! Right now I'm discovering more things about how my thumb moves than I knew before - I'll be working with thinking how it can move longer rather than straighter. Thanks again - and glad to see that outin is getting some illumination as well.

I think you'd definitely like the Alan Fraser book "All thumbs" then. It has lots of seemingly abstract Feldenkrais exercises, which basically free up general movement- as well as more specific advice with regard to piano playing.

[outin]

Since we already hijacked this thread with our thumbs, I'll post photos of mine.

Here's my left (better) thumb when the hand is streched to the max:

And here's the right hand trying to do the same:


The problem I have with right hand octaves is that when I play higher on the keys, the part marked with a red dot presses the key next to the lower note:

If I could flex the nail joint it would not, but I cannot flex the joint at all when the thumb is extended this far.

[nyiregyhazi]

Since we already hijacked this thread with our thumbs, I'll post photos of mine.

Here's my left (better) thumb when the hand is streched to the max:

And here's the right hand trying to do the same:


The problem I have with right hand octaves is that when I play higher on the keys, the part marked with a red dot presses the key next to the lower note:

If I could flex the nail joint it would not, but I cannot flex the joint at all when the thumb is extended this far.

It's interesting to see the positions there. I'm just wondering slightly though, whether there's a possibility that your means of compensating in the right hand might be perpetuating the problem? By way of example, I had a very weak r.h. 5th finger and compensated for that by stiffening it and always rocking onto it rather than moving it. Quite honestly, the lack of muscle down the side of my hand was so extreme compared to the left, I don't think I'd necessarily be exaggerating to say that it had atrophied. It took a lot of work, but by starting to move it, it gradually improved to the point of being relatively normal (if still slightly restricted from free movement).

I notice that the arch position is severely collapsed- not only in the outstretched photo but also in the regular one. When the thumb is out to the side like this (without first going down and under the hand more), many muscles have to work extremely hard to keep you stable. When the thumb goes more "under" the hand (opening a wide space between the thumb and the knuckle) there's a very simple opening activity that provides all the stabilisation you need.

THe old russian trick to illustrate this is to rest on a surface with the hand open and then press on the knuckle. It can take phenomenal pressure- but a simple and relatively low effort is enough to keep stable. If you do the same with the thumb and knuckles at a relatively similar height, it take phenomenal effort and it's still almost impossible to remain stable. Only when the space is truly opened is stability a simple thing to get.

I can't say anything for certain obviously, but I do suspect that there might be room for improvement if you experiment with getting more space in the arch- so the the thumb is contacting the key right on its side, rather than halfway. What I found with my student was that it was difficult for him to avoid that bend, but it wasn't impossible, once he found the right activities. As I recall, Cziffra had a slight bend that never went away 100%, but he didn't allow himself to get into awkward positions as a result of it- due to the use of the wide space between thumb and second. He had a way of moving that always seems to be minimising it, rather than encouraging it to happen more.

[outin]

I notice that the arch position is severely collapsed- not only in the outstretched photo but also in the regular one. When the thumb is out to the side like this (without first going down and under the hand more), many muscles have to work extremely hard to keep you stable. When the thumb goes more "under" the hand (opening a wide space between the thumb and the knuckle) there's a very simple opening activity that provides all the stabilisation you need.

I flattened the hand on purpose for the photo to show the thumb joint. Of course I would not play like that.

My hand is pretty streched also when I play octaves, my hand is so narrow that in the "natural" hand position without flattening the arch I can only play a 6th. This is what my teacher has also commented, 6th is my comfortable reach. That is why I really would need to be able to open the thumb more to the side.

I don't think I can get a photo of what happens when the thumb is under the hand, it's a bit difficult to use the camera with the left hand anyway. The second joint gets even more bent then and if I overdo it, the joint starts cracking. It doesn't affect the playing much though, because then I can flex the nail joint freely.

I have no trouble using the 5s these days, it took some work but know they are pretty strong and independent. Only the 4th is weak, especially in the left hand.

[outin]

THe old russian trick to illustrate this is to rest on a surface with the hand open and then press on the knuckle. It can take phenomenal pressure- but a simple and relatively low effort is enough to keep stable. If you do the same with the thumb and knuckles at a relatively similar height, it take phenomenal effort and it's still almost impossible to remain stable. Only when the space is truly opened is stability a simple thing to get.

I can't say anything for certain obviously, but I do suspect that there might be room for improvement if you experiment with getting more space in the arch- so the the thumb is contacting the key right on its side, rather than halfway. 

I'm sorry, but you would need to explain this part more, I do not get it. Either it is a language thing or I'm just unable to visualize what you are suggesting above...

[counterpoint]

outin, I think I have about the same size of hand as you

I do not understand, why it's a problem to play octaves for you.
I can play ninths quite comfortably, okay, not extremely comfortable, but it works well  

[outin]

I don't think I explained myself very well. I can play an octave anywhere with my left hand. I can also play it slowly with my right at the edge of the keys. But I would like to be able to play them fast and deeper to the keyboard and also more comfortably when in large chords. But my right thumb messes them up if I am not extra careful and take it slow...

nyiregyhazi:
This is my right hand not streched (still flat though, not the actual playing position):


The 2nd joint is still bent, but it doesn't look as bad since the nail joint is not extending the other way.

[counterpoint]

I don't think I explained myself very well. I can play an octave anywhere with my left hand. I can also play it slowly with my right at the edge of the keys.

If you play a single note with your thumb, how does this look?
Can't you play with the thumb from above? Like the hand is high and the thumb is in an angle of about 45°  (or even more) ascending from the key to the hand?

[outin]

Can't you play with the thumb from above? Like the hand is high and the thumb is in an angle of about 45°  (or even more) ascending from the key to the hand?

This is exactly my problem. I cannot do that when my hand is streched to an octave. I can play a 7th (barely) this way, but after that the only way to reach the next note is to flatten the hand. I don't have to do that for my left hand because the thumb is just a little bit longer.

I think because my hand and fingers are quite long it may look like my hands are bigger than what they actually are. I have noticed that almost everybody I know has much wider hands than mine, but mine are still as long as theirs.

[outin]

As I recall, Cziffra had a slight bend that never went away 100%, but he didn't allow himself to get into awkward positions as a result of it- due to the use of the wide space between thumb and second. He had a way of moving that always seems to be minimising it, rather than encouraging it to happen more.

Funny that you should mention this. I was watching some old documentary and noticed that his thumbs looked a bit like mine. Bigger hands of course, which I think helped him a bit...