I have a question about "Changing Meter"

[1piano4joe]

If a piece is in 3/4 time and a measure has 3 quarter notes then I count it, "ONE TWO THREE". The next measure changes meter to 3/8 time and has 3 eighth notes. Don't I count it exactly the same way, "ONE TWO THREE"? Wouldn't both measures sound exactly identical to the listener? The listener shouldn't even know there was a change in meter. Am I correct about this?

I am learning a piece called "Asteroids" which changes meter frequently. I believe I am playing it correctly but everyone (so far anyway) on YouTube is playing it differently then me leading me to believe I am wrong.  One of whom I think might be a teacher.

Measure 1 which is in 2/4 time has 4 eighth notes so I count, "1 and 2 and". Tapping my foot I notice that I am playing one eighth note on the down beat and another on the up beat. Also, I play with the metronome and I play them both between the clicks and on them since the clicks represent quarter notes.

Measure 3 changes meter to 3/8 time. Doesn't the clicks of the metronome now represent eighth notes? Measure 3 has 3 eighth notes in it. I play them when the metronome clicks which is when I would tap my foot. Is this not correct?

Is it possible that so many people are having trouble with this and I am actually doing it correctly?
Meter seems so basic. Top number tells me how many beats there are or how high I count up to. Is there something more to it than that or is that all there is to it? Bottom number tells me what it is that I'm supposed to be counting. Again, am I missing something or is that all there is to it?

Thank you, Joe.

[drkilroy]

I believe that the 3/8 measure should be played exactly two times faster than the 3/4 measure, unless there is a marking "L'istesso tempo".

Best regards, Dr

[1piano4joe]

Are you sure?

There are I believe only 3 ways to change time signature:

1. Change the top number.

2. Change the bottom number.

3. Change both the top and bottom numbers.

Changing the top number only does not (to my knowledge anyway) change the tempo.

Does that mean a change in tempo occurs only when the bottom number changes?

Changing from 2/4 to 3/4 or 4/4 just changes the length of the measure with no change in tempo.

Also, if I played the 3/8 measure twice as fast I would be lost.  How would I play (or anyone) the next measure?  The measure would be played like a beat and a half and then the bar line. So, I would start the next measure on an upbeat?

I maintain the look on paper is all that changes but not the sound.

F double sharp, G and A double flat are all the same key on the piano just notated on paper differently.

Thanks, Joe.

[werq34ac]

Are you sure?

There are I believe only 3 ways to change time signature:

1. Change the top number.

2. Change the bottom number.

3. Change both the top and bottom numbers.

Changing the top number only does not (to my knowledge anyway) change the tempo.

Does that mean a change in tempo occurs only when the bottom number changes?

Changing from 2/4 to 3/4 or 4/4 just changes the length of the measure with no change in tempo.

Also, if I played the 3/8 measure twice as fast I would be lost.  How would I play (or anyone) the next measure?  The measure would be played like a beat and a half and then the bar line. So, I would start the next measure on an upbeat?

I maintain the look on paper is all that changes but not the sound.

F double sharp, G and A double flat are all the same key on the piano just notated on paper differently.

Thanks, Joe.

If the composer wanted your eighth notes to magically turn into quarter notes (key word magically) he would have been VERY clear about it. By putting quarter=eighth above the new time signature.

Eighth notes are eighth notes. And that's how it's counted. If the composer wanted the beats to stay the same they would have put 3/4 and not 3/8.


As for your enharmonic analogy, composers use enharmonic spellings to stay within key. A Bb doesn't usually resolve to a b natural. But an A# usually does. Time signitures are very exact.

[eleutherarch]

If you imagine yourself playing in 3/4 in the left hand, and playing an ostinato in the right that has a value of 3/8, it will take two right hand repetitions for both hands to line up again on beat 1.

3/4 can be written as 6/8 (dependent on phrasing).  So one bar of 3/8 will be half the duration of your bar of 3/4.  So you may look at this as a sort of truncation of your normal meter.

You could feel the whole transition as ONE-two-three-four-five-six-ONE-two-three-ONE-two-three-four-five-six.  I do this when learning passages of compound signatures consisting of many odd note groupings.

Make an accent of the first beat, and the feel will become very natural.  You can then remove the accent should you need to.

Hope that helped.

[1piano4joe]

Thanks to all for responding. I really had my eyes opened today. I misunderstood so many things. I counted wrong, played it wrong, thought about it wrong, used the metronome wrong and had a revelation about time signatures to be sure.

I never knew changing time signatures can change the tempo for openers.

Also, This changes things rather profoundly for me.

For example, a measure in 2/4 time that has four eighth notes is followed by a measure in 3/8 that has three eighth notes. How do I handle it now that my eyes have been opened and having had a revelation?

I think of the measure in 2/4 time as being in 4/8 time. I count to four and NOT 1+2+. The measure in 3/8 I just count to three. The Metronome is now simply clicking away beating eighths the entire time. I get it completely thinking and playing, feeling and hearing it this way.

I can hear what the other performers on YouTube are playing, follow the score, counting all the while and it makes sense now.

Thanks Dr about the L'istesso tempo. I had never heard of it.

Thanks werq for the, "Eighth notes are eighth notes". That really helped me, Joe.