Lack of technique in Bach & Beethoven:(

[lasilintu]

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[faa2010]

Hello,

It's very ironical because I lack what you have: you can play romantic works very fluently.

What you did fine by yourself is learning, keep practising, improving your technique.

If you haven't seen any progress, going with another teacher is the next option.

And when I say go with another teacher, I don't mean to quit forever your formal teacher (unless you want it), I mean that you can go with another piano or music teacher so you can have a third opinion, a different way to learn, and another possible solution.

Also in Internet and in this forum you can have a guide for solving your issues.  Just be open to many solutions as you can and choose the ones which you think you need. (ie. some may say you have to do Hanon, others will tell you don't do it because it will do you more harm than good)

[outin]

Maybe you do need another teacher... I have worked with the basics for the whole year and it is starting to pay off. I have learned to keep my wrists straight and use my fingers to play and I don't get wrist symptoms and fatigue in my arms anymore. Still a long way to go, but I can feel the difference. I don't think I could have solved the issues without my teacher pointing out all the problems.

[miamlevy]

I agree with the others that you might need a new teacher. When you play baroque and classical music make sure that all the joints in your hand are firm and slightly bent without being stiff (especially when you play Bach). You want to avoid "noodle fingers."

I think the main thing is to get a good teacher who can help you with correct hand positioning and technique for baroque and classical pieces. It's really not something people on a forum can effectively teach you.

[landru]

Is it even normal to play the same prelude & fugue for a year and notice that I still have the same technical problems with the piece?

If you are going over a Bach prelude and fugue over and over again in your sessions for a year, then in my opinion you are not being served well by your teacher. In my experience after a certain time with a piece that is not going well, you aren't learning the piece, you are just fortifying things that are going wrong. I expect of a teacher to notice that if there problems with P&F, then go to an invention or sinfonia, or an English Suite and isolate the problem and work on it.

I agree that you might want to look for a new teacher. I believe you that your technique can do Chopin/Scriabin now, and maybe your teacher is good at that. But playing the piano is more than the Romantics, and a firm foundation in baroque/classical can't help but improve your Chopin.

[ignaceii]

Hard to believe you play the "romantics" without Bach and Beethoven. Normally it's the other way round.
There is far more dynamical stuff in the romantic school as opposed to certainly Bach, and Beethoven, with reservations.
Or you can't handle 3 or 4 voices in the WTC by Bach, or what exactly is it you are struggling with. And if you have a hard time with Beethoven, I assure you that Schubert won't help you to.
Your problem is a mystery for me.
It's as if your teacher told you how to play Rach3, and the further you go back, the lessrt you achieve, while all piano playing starts with Bach.
There is definitely something wrong here.

[ajspiano]

My teacher doesn't let me play Hanon because "it's not music". However, I have tried to prove my technique with it and also with Liszt finger exercises.

Listen to your teacher - Bach will do you just as well, the motif's and structure in the inventions make them arguably hanon + music (really good music too from a mental development perspective) + hand independence. It's WAY better than hanon and will give the same or better results for the same set problems.

As far as any real technical advice - there's no way anyone here can give a relevant opinion with out seeing and hearing your playing. I'd like to see both your "failed" bach, and your "fluent" chopin studies to form a better idea about what you're potentially doing wrong. I don't mean to be presumptuous but your idea of an acceptable romantic etude and my idea may be vastly different. Though I gather you're teacher agrees with the problems you've stated so I'm a little confused by it and really have no idea what could be causing this without actually taking a close look.

[j_menz]

Is it even normal to play the same prelude & fugue for a year and notice that I still have the same technical problems with the piece?

If you aren't doing anything to correct those problems, then just repeating them over and over is not going to fix them however often you do it and for however long.

I must say I find it odd that you have fingers that are too weak for Bach, but strong enough for a Chopin etude. As suggested above, you really need to post a vid of you playing both to get any really useful guidance.

[ruvidoetostinato]

Hello lasilintu.  

I have a friend that has a similar issue that you are having right now.  He just recently played Liebermann's Piano concerto but he's struggling with Beethoven concerto.

It is indeed not good if you have been playing the same Prelude and Fugue for a year but still have the same existing technical problems you did when you started the piece.

Hanon is a terrible exercise when done incorrectly as it can waste a lot of time and build bad habits.  

I suggest playing Hanon slowly, with thought in mind regarding how you're playing through with your fingers, whether you're pressing down vertically at the key, what joint is used as the "elbow" of your finger, pulling your finger towards your hand, etc.  

That in mind, have you played some Bach inventions?  I feel those are great exercises for finger strength.

But, like everyone else said, please post a video of your playing so that piano streeters have a better grasp of your playing and be able to assess possible issues.

[ajspiano]

Is it even normal to play the same prelude & fugue for a year and notice that I still have the same technical problems with the piece?

I missed this before, and will just echo j_menz.

You don't get better just by repeating it over and over - you just get better at whatever it is you are repeating.

You either need to figure out good technique and practice it, or find someone who can show you then practice it. Don't just keep playing your P & F without thought. Isolate the problem, as little as the transition between 2 notes perhaps? fix it. find others, fix them all one at a time, once you've done that start piecing them back together as whole phrases, then whole sections.. etc.

[lasilintu]

Thanks for your advice everyone!  
It's funny that when I play romantic pieces, it comes naturally for me to do dynamics and I don't have to struggle with technique. The clang is more open and I find it easy to play with my heart. I think that I know how to practice the difficult parts and it's easier to develop. I can pay my attention to listening and working with the piece by ear.

But if I try to do the same thing with Beethoven, I feel like I can't play anymore. Like I said before, my muscles cramp and I get nervous. Everything goes wrong and even if I try to relax and concentrate to the phrases, I can't control my hands. Every note is out of my control. I think that is my biggest problem and I feel like it's more psychical... What do you think?

[outin]

But if I try to do the same thing with Beethoven, I feel like I can't play anymore. Like I said before, my muscles cramp and I get nervous. Everything goes wrong and even if I try to relax and concentrate to the phrases, I can't control my hands. Every note is out of my control. I think that is my biggest problem and I feel like it's more psychical... What do you think?

Probably some of it could be mental, but if you have a solid technique, you shouldn't freak out quite as much or at least it shouldn't affect your playing that much... Do you feel this way also when you practice or only when playing in front of your teacher/someone else?

I haven’t played any Beethoven and I’m certainly no expert in playing, but I would think the basic technique on playing Beethoven or Chopin etydes can’t be THAT different. After all Chopin was not quite as “romantic” as the composers that came after him.

[lasilintu]

Probably some of it could be mental, but if you have a solid technique, you shouldn't freak out quite as much or at least it shouldn't affect your playing that much... Do you feel this way also when you practice or only when playing in front of your teacher/someone else?

I'm definitely more nervous when I play in front of someone else.
When I play, I can see that my hands "freak out" and it looks like there's some problem, but I can't solve it. It looks like there's tension in my hands and it sounds too choppy.

[outin]

My computer here at work cannot play the video, I will have to look at it tonight. There are others on this forum who will be better at analyzing your playing anyway.

[lasilintu]

Here's an another video, which I recorded two months earlier than the first one.

[outin]

These ancient machines don't have soundboards and videos freeze immediately

[hmpiano]

Here's an another video, which I recorded two months earlier than the first one. https://www.myspace.com/575436768

What lovely playing!  though I wouldn't move anything like that much for Bach (and I don't think he would either).

[counterpoint]

Here's an another video, which I recorded two months earlier than the first one. https://www.myspace.com/575436768

From a technical point of view, this is quite good. But from the musical expression, it's just too uniform for my taste. I would take much more liberties in changing the tempo and sound. Bach is not only linear music - it also has a harmonic dimension, which is very important for the understanding. There are modulations, Trugschlüsse (I don't know how to translate this) etc., which need more time to flourish and make the music more 3 dimensional.
Perhaps you just should play your Bach a bit (or much) more "romantic"  

[elenka]

In my point of view for Bach the technique it's not a problem, italian culture of playing piano we say that you NEED Bach to build and to emproove your technique! Mostly when you play Bach you need more your brain than your fingers, it's not possible that you can play Skrjabin and not Bach because it would sound a little bit unbelivable...Skrjabin it's a grade 10  while by Bach there are plenty of pieces of various difficulty 3,4,5,6,7 and so on.
Beethoven is understandable you need to work on very hard, have you ever played Clementi's etudes from Gradus ad Parnassum. We study a lot of them to get more confidence with Beethoven the writing way...you know to play Mozart Czerny, Cramer and Liszt op.1 it's enough but Beethoven needs more struggle!

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's an another video, which I recorded two months earlier than the first one. https://www.myspace.com/575436768

There's a lot of good stuff there, but I can see that your fingers are not creating enough genuine movement for everything to be fully under control. A lot of the time they are either giving way under arm pressure or trying to stiffen to stop that happening. If you find a productive style of genuine finger movement, nothing can ever give way- and no stiffening at all is required.

I'm working at similar issues myself. I've improved a lot recently, but still have to keep spotting the holes- where fingers are drooping a little or getting thrust stiffly into the keys, without really moving. This is the first post of what will be a series of three, about developing true movement- rather than having to strain harder not to collapse:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/fingers-core-of-piano-technique-part-i.html

Hopefully it would be of some help. At the end there are exercises that illustrate how if the finger is expanding out, it can never give way (which makes the results both easier and more predictable). I think you need to develop more of that movement- in order to deal with the moments where slight holes appear in your sound.

[cocoazul]

Here's an another video, which I recorded two months earlier than the first one. https://www.myspace.com/575436768

pardon my ignorance and my english but what piece is that?

[hmpiano]

pardon my ignorance and my english but what piece is that?

Bach Well Tempered Clavier Book II, Prelude and Fugue in D Minor

[lasilintu]

There's a lot of good stuff there, but I can see that your fingers are not creating enough genuine movement for everything to be fully under control. A lot of the time they are either giving way under arm pressure or trying to stiffen to stop that happening. If you find a productive style of genuine finger movement, nothing can ever give way- and no stiffening at all is required.

I'm working at similar issues myself. I've improved a lot recently, but still have to keep spotting the holes- where fingers are drooping a little or getting thrust stiffly into the keys, without really moving. This is the first post of what will be a series of three, about developing true movement- rather than having to strain harder not to collapse:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/fingers-core-of-piano-technique-part-i.html

Hopefully it would be of some help. At the end there are exercises that illustrate how if the finger is expanding out, it can never give way (which makes the results both easier and more predictable). I think you need to develop more of that movement- in order to deal with the moments where slight holes appear in your sound.

thank you sooo much for help!! I think that this will help me

[rmbarbosa]

When we wish to do something, we must go from the easier to the more difficult, ok? So, if you wish to play Bach, you may wish to go from his easier pieces to the more hard ones. Bach composed 6 small preludes, well known by everybody and very easy. They are very good to "introduce" ourselves in Bach, because they allow us to "sing" Bach. The "secret", with Bach, is to extract piano sounds, in both hands, like a "cello". Have a look, in youtube, to the small prelude in C minor, played by Gould. You`ll see that Bach is much more "human" and much less "mechanical" than we can believe. Have a look to his left hand, in the first section of this prelude, see how is left hand "sing". Why dont you try to make the same? Then, have a look to the small prelude 738, in E and you`ll see something like a "rubatto"... if you play Chopin, of course you can play this prelude with its "rubattos"... You may say: the small preludes are very easy, I want to play the "great" preludes and fugues. Ok. But Gould was Gould and he played the small preludes. In harpsichord, Chiara Massini - the greatest harpsichordist of our days - play the small preludes. And, after more than 40 years of piano playing, I myself do love the small preludes, even more than when I was a young boy. They are lovely! Please, do try. And your problems with Bach will go out... (sorry for my English)
Best wishes
Rui

[nyiregyhazi]

When we wish to do something, we must go from the easier to the more difficult, ok? So, if you wish to play Bach, you may wish to go from his easier pieces to the more hard ones. Bach composed 6 small preludes, well known by everybody and very easy. They are very good to "introduce" ourselves in Bach, because they allow us to "sing" Bach. The "secret", with Bach, is to extract piano sounds, in both hands, like a "cello".

The problem is, from a pragmatic view, you are switching cause and effect. You can't just decide to sound like a cello and have it magically happen. First you have to have a means of control. Unless you can reliably predict how each note will sound (with very little margin of error) trying to emulate goes out the window. From watching the video, you can tell that she has musical understanding, but is falling shorter on the means of actually sounding every note as desired. The mechanical struggle gets in the way- and sometimes no amount of focus on music will help, until there's a basic means of controlling each sound.

I come from a similar position myself. I could make music by Chopin and Liszt sound convincing enough, but whenever I attempted things like Beethoven or Bach, the results were totally unsatisfactory. I'm not saying I'm Glenn Gould musically speaking, but internal musical concepts were not the weak point. In fact, they were the reason I found the whole thing so frustrating. I could get the notes out reasonably enough and anyone listening might have thought the technique was okay but the musical results lacking. Howevever, from my point of view I was so horrified at how little the sounds I could produce resembled those I was intending, that it was simply painful to be hearing myself. The strength of my musical intentions only served to make the whole thing more infuriating. If I didn't care about music, I might have been able to get on with murdering Beethoven and Bach without minding. However, even if every note is played correctly, it doesn't mean that the technique is okay and that the problems are necessarily in the musical conception. In music where every individual note counts for so much, you have to start with a means of fine control, before there's any hope of the musical conception being realised. Sometimes it's even necessarily to actively step back from exaggerated musical shaping (and the exaggerated arm pressures that tend to accompany it, out of habit), if the ability to control the sound from the fingers is to be acquired.

[outin]

Obviously you CAN play this music.

Maybe you are just too concerned and stressed about getting the notes right and the tempo and get stressed about it when at the same time you feel your fingers are insecure?

Maybe you should either take a break from the piece or slow down your playing and try to enjoy the playing experience more and at the same time think about how to use your fingers as efficiently as possible?

[lasilintu]

Thanks again everybody, I'm happy to see that so many are willing to give advice in here!

I'm not saying I'm Glenn Gould musically speaking, but internal musical concepts were not the weak point. In fact, they were the reason I found the whole thing so frustrating. I could get the notes out reasonably enough and anyone listening might have thought the technique was okay but the musical results lacking. Howevever, from my point of view I was so horrified at how little the sounds I could produce resembled those I was intending, that it was simply painful to be hearing myself. The strength of my musical intentions only served to make the whole thing more infuriating. If I didn't care about music, I might have been able to get on with murdering Beethoven and Bach without minding.

haha, I can so relate to you! I used to be very shamed when I had to play in front of other students because I was afraid that no one saw the real problem. I still am sometimes embarrassed, but luckily my teacher has realized that I truly love music and I just don't have the right tools yet.

[outin]

Do you happen to be a Finn btw (your nickname suggests it)? If so, it is quite relevant here I think 

Our culture is full of things that are not very productive when trying to feel mentally relaxed about playing:
- Failure is always more probable than success and if you happen to feel some success you probably must be just imagining. Nothing is really ever good enough anyway.
- If you happen to fail it is always your fault, not the teacher’s or the piece being too difficult.
- Making a mistake makes you ridiculous and must be avoided at all cost (even musicality).
- Only if you are super talented and practiced for 10 years every day, you can afford to really enjoy playing and its worth to perform for someone else. I hope it’s not quite as bad for younger people, but this is how my generation was brought up.

I am very much struggling with the mental part of playing. In general I am self-confident, because reality has shown me that I am quite good in most of the things I need to do. But when it comes to playing I have little confidence, probably because of my experiences from playing as a kid and the fact that I am not good at it yet.
I’m just not able to accept the fact that my playing still sucks and I learn the pieces really slowly after having 9 months of lessons. Even though rationally I know I am quite ok considering I only played about 4 years or so as a kid (over 30 years ago).
It certainly doesn’t help to see 7 year olds playing some of my pieces twice the tempo I can in youtube 

[hmpiano]

The problem is, from a pragmatic view, you are switching cause and effect. You can't just decide to sound like a cello and have it magically happen. First you have to have a means of control. Unless you can reliably predict how each note will sound (with very little margin of error) trying to emulate goes out the window.

I disagree.  Here's a quote from an interesting site I discovered yesterday:

'In any case, the ability to think musically and, consequently, the ability to complete any kind of musical creation on instrument via internal anticipative [also – creative] hearing, but not via deliberating about notes, keys, names of sounds and/or about hands – is the most basic feature differentiating musical talent from the musically poorly gifted human being.'
 https://www.pianoeu.com/indexje.html

I think he's saying you can, and in my experience it does happen magically.  It's when you deny the magic it fails to materialize.

[outin]

I would say the truth is somewhere in between.

It is not possible to "magically" produce music without the means (technique). The means are learned by time and repeating as well as understanding. I don't think you can analyze all of the technique (or maybe you can, but I'm afraid it would be too much for us impatient ones who want to spend time on the piano as well as on books/internet).
Some of it just comes from the hours of practice and evaluation of the resulting sounds without actual knowledge of what exactly happens with your nerves and muscles.

[lasilintu]

But you know, those 7 year olds may have a talent to play pieces really fast... but how many of them really understands the music? I'm tired of comparing myself to others because it really is a waste of time! It seems that even many of the advanced students (or professionals) don't care about what is important in music. And that's something you can't learn if your only goal is to win prizes or play virtuoso pieces so that everyone is jealous to you.
At some point I started to feel very lucky now  

[hmpiano]

I would say the truth is somewhere in between.

I would say to a limited extent.  If you come from a sense of poise, of stillness, most of the physical stuff is done for you.  I think that was Chopin's message.

[lasilintu]

I disagree.  Here's a quote from an interesting site I discovered yesterday:

'In any case, the ability to think musically and, consequently, the ability to complete any kind of musical creation on instrument via internal anticipative [also – creative] hearing, but not via deliberating about notes, keys, names of sounds and/or about hands – is the most basic feature differentiating musical talent from the musically poorly gifted human being.'
 https://www.pianoeu.com/indexje.html

I think he's saying you can, and in my experience it does happen magically.  It's when you deny the magic it fails to materialize.

I think you've got a point there. However, I started this topic because I struggle with the poor technique that prevents me from playing like I intend to. Magic cannot happen because my technique and musicality aren't in balance. Sometimes it helps if I just sing a long when I play romantic pieces BUT it's not enough when I play pieces where I need to control my every finger. I can't even play scales smoothly so there's no shortcuts in it.

[hmpiano]

My answer to your problem was to attain some stillness - you are doing too much not too little.  I have a student who's just done his grade 7 Trinity (age 13).  Like last year he got perfect marks on one piece (and a distinction overall).  Over the years I don't think I've said anything to him re: technique - it's all been music, music, music.  Starting him off years ago with no extraneous movement was really all that was required.  He's a steady worker, not especially gifted.

[counterpoint]

Magic cannot happen because my technique and musicality aren't in balance.

Yes, that's it!

Too much concentration on technique and too little on the music itself  

More concentration on technique will surely not solve this problem.

Technique is about feeling comfortable physically, musicality is about feeling and listening what the music is telling.

[lasilintu]

My answer to your problem was to attain some stillness - you are doing too much not too little.  I have a student whose just done his grade 7 Trinity (age 13).  Like last year he got perfect marks on one piece (and a distinction overall).  Over the years I don't think I've said anything to him re: technique - it's all been music, music, music.  Starting him off years ago with no extraneous movement was really all that was required.  He's a steady worker, not especially gifted.

Yes you are right, I tend to 'overdo' everything and it's hard to get rid of a bad habit.
I'm not sure if I understood your point though.. Do you think that people like me are "poorly gifted" if we have problems like this?

[rmbarbosa]

Nyiregyhazi,
Bach wrote the 6 small preludes, like the Inventions, with didatic purposes. They are good music but also good "exercises". So, if I cant play them like a "cello", I`ll try... one time, 2, 10, 100, 500 times... untill I achieve what I wish. To play a bar or a phrase, hands separated first, hands together later, is allways possible. And we`ll achieve, sooner or later. This means a way of conjugate technique with mental playing.
Best wishes
Rui

[hmpiano]

Do you think that people like me are "poorly gifted" if we have problems like this?

I'm saying your gift gets shrouded in all this mechanical stuff.  Ultimately I suppose it's control freakery that's the cause, music's the answer.

[rmbarbosa]

No, you are not poorly gifted.
You have only a specific problem to solve and you`ll solve it.
Best best best wishes
Rui

[lasilintu]

No, you are not poorly gifted.
You have only a specific problem to solve and you`ll solve it.
Best best best wishes
Rui

Thank you, I'll definitely try those 6 preludes!
Best wishes 

[outin]

It seems that even many of the advanced students (or professionals) don't care about what is important in music. And that's something you can't learn if your only goal is to win prizes or play virtuoso pieces so that everyone is jealous to you.
At some point I started to feel very lucky now  

I sometimes feel lucky too, that I can choose the pieces I play and there's no outside pressure. I hope to be like you one day, to be able not to create that pressure myself...

In general we have lost the essence of music a bit. Much of the music we are learning to play was orginally targeted to people to play in their homes as amateurs. So many people think you have to "be a musician" to make music. The ordinary people are just supposed to listen and admire.

I am not a singer but I sing a lot. I am hoping some day I will have the same kind of relationship with the piano as I have with my voice. It just comes out effortlessly and I never have to worry about blackouts, I can always improvise

[nyiregyhazi]

I disagree.  Here's a quote from an interesting site I discovered yesterday:

'In any case, the ability to think musically and, consequently, the ability to complete any kind of musical creation on instrument via internal anticipative [also – creative] hearing, but not via deliberating about notes, keys, names of sounds and/or about hands – is the most basic feature differentiating musical talent from the musically poorly gifted human being.'
 https://www.pianoeu.com/indexje.html

I think he's saying you can, and in my experience it does happen magically.  It's when you deny the magic it fails to materialize.

He is saying IF there is "musical talent" it will happen magically. So how are we going to relate this to the poster's question? We're going to say she's obviously untalented and should just give up? If the above holds up to any scrutiny, what other answer can possible follow?

More sensibly, we can realise that control over your sound is not about musical talent- but about PHYSICAL talent for being able to make movements in such a way that the resulting sound can be reliably predicted. The poster can then go about finding ways to improve upon the skills that have not come as naturally to her as they do to a small lucky elite. If you use movements where the resulting sound is inherently less predictable and subject to less reliable control, no amount of talent will compensate. The ear only exposes that the sounds are not as intended. Control evolves as a result of using movements that have consistently predictable results in sound. If they don't, you need to change how you move. At the root of it is a physical issue- which allows what is supposedly "musical" talent to evolve. He has it in reverse. When a person moves in a predictable enough way to produce intended sounds reliably, we describe them as being musically talented. When a person has no such talent, we decide that they are not "musical". "Musical talent" for producing the intended sound is the EFFECT of a physical issue that makes it possible, not the cause.

Her post shows that musical talent is exactly what she DOES have. She has enough to observe that her sounds do not correspond to her intentions. Ironically, in many cases it may well be that those who think it's all about the ear and the musical intention are simple deaf to the fine details. Except where ultra-talented, they may actually be relatively deaf to the inconsistencies between what they intend and how they really sound. Those who KNOW that there is a discrepancy may often be more musically talented and better at listening to themselves than those who think that it's only about intentions. If a pianist has never run into a situation where they realise how difficult it is to execute their intentions, either they are a rare genius or too limited as a musician to realise the extent of their failings. Those who are able to observe problems are the GOOD listeners- not the bad ones. Telling them to think more about music (which is why they are already pissed off with the results) is just ridiculous.

Only in piano teaching are we still in the dark ages of believing that magic occurs. What string teacher doesn't bother to deal with bowing issues? What teacher starts with the musical line, if the student can't bow properly? What wind teacher decides that if the student is musical, they'll figure out how to breathe for themself? At the root of piano technique, you need to be able to move the fingers in a mechanically efficient way, if you are to be able to reliably produce the volume of sound you intend. When a student has not mastered this foundation, telling them they are obviously not musical enough is just about the stupidest thing possible.

Here's a recent film of myself playing Liszt:

&feature=relmfu

While I'm not overwhelmed with the results, the style of music makes it possible to produce something that gives a reasonable reflection of my musical intentions- although there are countless issues where technical issues get in the way of the sound, such as the l.h. arpeggios at 5 minutes in, which I would like to be pppp and I also find the semiquavers at about 5.30 far too "notey" (to mention but two issues).

Anyway, it's not too hard to produce something that sounds relatively musical in Liszt, without having to become furious with yourself time after time. When I play something like a Haydn slow movement or a Bach fugue, just the slightest discrepancy between the intended sound and that which occurs does not blend into the bigger picture. It destroys the musical line. The stronger your musical intentions, the harder it is to produce anything remotely satisfactory. The stronger your desire to produce a specific sound, the more you realise the failings not in your musicianship, but in the CONTROL over what you produce.

Having high standards is exactly why many pianists need to work on the simple issue of moving in a way where every tone can be predictable. If a pool player can't cue straight, they need to start by potting dead straight balls until they can- not by practising elaborate potting angles. Similarly, a pianist needs to work on simple control of tone. If you always make it about elaborate musical shapes, you actually just make it easier to get away with poor control. Control over sound is the foundation of all good piano playing. The easiest way to develop that is to keep it simple- so any failures will be exposed at once. Once you have the means to control a simple even line, you can move on to controlling more elaborate shapes.

[hmpiano]

I think it may be more on topic to post some Beethoven or Bach?

[nyiregyhazi]

I think it may be more on topic to post some Beethoven or Bach?

I don't think I've ever filmed anything by such composers that I've been musically happy enough with to upload. The Liszt is an example of how you can be capable of musical results in Romantic composers, without having satisfactory control of baroque and classical period music (okay, I'm second-guessing a little here, but hopefully, nobody would be too horrified by my performance!).

Oh, actually, I totally forgot:

&feature=relmfu

The fugue's really not great though. Still plenty of work to do on the quality of movement, if I'm going to get it beyond strings of notes and make something musical out of it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Nyiregyhazi,
Bach wrote the 6 small preludes, like the Inventions, with didatic purposes. They are good music but also good "exercises". So, if I cant play them like a "cello", I`ll try... one time, 2, 10, 100, 500 times... untill I achieve what I wish. To play a bar or a phrase, hands separated first, hands together later, is allways possible. And we`ll achieve, sooner or later. This means a way of conjugate technique with mental playing.
Best wishes
Rui

I do see your point in that respect- but the problem is that you still need to get certain specific qualities, if you are to learn anything transferable. You get a lot of students who play grade 1 pieces very musically, for example, but who go on to hit a wall within a few grades- where they simply cannot control their sound. Ironically, those with stronger musical intentions are sometimes harder hit in this respect. I have one student who plays a jazzy piece very enthusiastically, but with heavy arm pressures and poor finger movement. Unless the right associations are there early on, musical intention can actually encourage poor technique. Students who play plainly but not unmusically often put themselves in a better position for long-term than those who have enthusiasm for musical shapes.

Of course, I'm not saying technique is best learned from harder pieces. Playing easier stuff in the right specific way is very important. However, a student who has bad habits will often do them exactly the same in easier repertoire as in more difficult pieces- meaning that nothing necessarily changes at all. In many cases you have to step back from strong intentions and work simply on having a clear and direct movement for each key- and then OBSERVE the results in sound before you start trying to deliberately control them. Sometimes, it's actually having a strong musical intention in mind that triggers the habits that must be eliminated, in order to go on to bigger and better things. It's matter of stopping to build clear association between a useful baseline movement and the sound it makes- before later returning to the idea of using musical intention to trigger the right movement.

[hmpiano]

I don't think I've ever filmed anything by such composers that I've been musically happy enough with to upload. The Liszt is an example of how you can be capable of musical results in Romantic composers, without having satisfactory control of baroque and classical period music (okay, I'm second-guessing a little here, but hopefully, nobody would be too horrified by my performance!).

Oh, actually, I totally forgot:

&feature=relmfu

The fugue's really not great though. Still plenty of work to do on the quality of movement, if I'm going to get it beyond strings of notes and make something musical out of it.

Interesting.  Once you're well into the fugue all the silly finger antics stop - cause they have to!  Here's serkin

&feature=relmfu no antics there.

[nyiregyhazi]

Interesting.  Once you're well into the fugue all the silly finger antics stop - cause they have to!  Here's serkin

&feature=relmfu no antics there.

The finger lifting, you mean? The thing is that my wrist has a bad habit of bunching up forwards. I'm not necessarily intent on doing fingerlifts in the long run, but they're currently a good way of improving the balance and connection to whichever finger has last played a key- so it supports properly with the arm hanging freely behind.  The problem is that I keep departing and returning- rather than keeping the wrist lengthened out.

The start of the fugue perhaps looks better, but it's actually a lot more cramped and there's much less control over the sound. Every note sounds individually and lumpily- not as part of a simple flow. Sure, I'm stiller because I have to be, but not out of decent movement. It's just tightness- which is why the wrist still bobs around too much. True stillness can only be achieved by overall balance- not by trying to keep still. I'm having to do a lot of work on completely changing the style of finger movements- so they stop pulling the wrist forward in the first place and simply move the keys in a more direct fashion. If I were currently going on musical instincts alone in my practise, the problems would be a great deal worse still- because physical habits are still wired in to them. I have to actively step back from the end product, in my work on these things- if I'm going to get the point where a simple quality of balance is sustained at all times, without constant fluctuations (or stiffness to prevent them). You can't just decide to be still. First you have to learn to balance effectively so consistently that nothing will screw up the alignment.

[kclee6337]

I had the same exact problem!!!

Not playing hannon is almost a criminal act. pick up some czerny exercises.

how often do you play through your scales?..... be honest.

Back to the basics!!!! be sure your posture is correct your fingers are in the correct position. (act like your holding a tennis ball)

now set a metronome and off you go through all major minor scales. do this everyday slowing increasing the metronome. if your fingers aren't playing precisely at the same time slow it down.  you'll go from a sloppy drunk, to descent B&B player.  

[beebert]

Hanon is for lazy people who don't want to solve problems themselves.

[j_menz]

I had the same exact problem!!!

Not playing hannon is almost a criminal act. pick up some czerny exercises.

how often do you play through your scales?..... be honest.

Back to the basics!!!! be sure your posture is correct your fingers are in the correct position. (act like your holding a tennis ball)

now set a metronome and off you go through all major minor scales. do this everyday slowing increasing the metronome. if your fingers aren't playing precisely at the same time slow it down.  you'll go from a sloppy drunk, to descent B&B player.  

It's amazing that Bach and Beethoven both managed to learn to play without the aid of Hanon, Czerny or a metronome.