Beethoven Sonata 'Pathétique' First Movement

[mattimias]

Well, this is my first post here, so I'm doing an introduction of sorts. I've been playing the piano for the better part of 2 years, about Grade 5~6 (Though my music theory is atrocious) now. I'm still a student, studying in Asia and am now trying to learn the aforementioned piece. I've been trying for a week now, continuously practicing everyday, but still have a few problems.

1. Is using the rightmost pedal okay? When should I use it?
2. In the 'Grave' introduction, there are quite a few abrupt transitions in tone like fortepiano, sforzando. I've been Making the change in tone rather sudden. Is it fine to do so? Or how should I play it?
3. Is it okay to use four counts to a crotchet?

That's it for now.

[davidjosepha]

I think you might want to work on other aspects of piano more before you play this piece. My reasoning, mainly, questions 1, 2, and 3. There's more to music than technique (in fact, technique no more makes you a musician than owning a dictionary makes me a poet), so even if you can play the piece technique-wise, you're moving too fast. But I'll humor you with some answers.

1. Yes, the rightmost pedal is the one you should use the most in piano. It's called the sustain pedal, for future reference. The leftmost pedal, una corda, or the "soft pedal", is very rarely used and should not be used as a substitute for being able to play quietly using your fingers alone. The sostenuto pedal doesn't even work the way it does on a grand on most upright pianos, but it's used to hold down only the notes that are pressed down when the pedal is pressed down.

2. Yes, fortepianos and sforzandos are supposed to be abrupt.

3. I can't stop laughing at this question because I picture a British man asking about crumpets 
After some Googling, I'm assuming you're asking about 4 beats to the measure? The sonata's first movement, at least at the beginning (I've never actually played the piec) is in common time, so yes, 4 counts to a crotchet should suffice!

[mattimias]

... Isn't that obvious? I know piano isn't just about technique. I asked these questions because I am weak technique-wise and needed some help.

About question 1, I asked it because there wasn't anything indicating the use of the sustain pedal on the sheet music I use, which confused me as I didn't see any way it could be played without that pedal without sounding odd. What I meant was, where should I use it? I mean, I know where it mustn't be used but there are a few areas where it becomes difficult to determine.
What I meant in question 2 was to ask about the difference in volume, for the lack of a better word. Should it be very loud, or just loud enough that one can distinguish between the note itself and the note before?
3. Crumpets? Delicious. I can see the similarity. Yes, I meant the first part.

Still, thanks for the help!

[hfmadopter]

... Isn't that obvious? I know piano isn't just about technique. I asked these questions because I am weak technique-wise and needed some help.

About question 1, I asked it because there wasn't anything indicating the use of the sustain pedal on the sheet music I use, which confused me as I didn't see any way it could be played without that pedal without sounding odd. What I meant was, where should I use it? I mean, I know where it mustn't be used but there are a few areas where it becomes difficult to determine.What I meant in question 2 was to ask about the difference in volume, for the lack of a better word. Should it be very loud, or just loud enough that one can distinguish between the note itself and the note before?
3. Crumpets? Delicious. I can see the similarity. Yes, I meant the first part.

Still, thanks for the help!

Just listen and go from there. Not that this is the best or utmost rendition but nothing to sneeze at either. I did this piece maybe 25 years ago so I will reserve comment as it isn't fresh in my mind any longer. Anyway, first movement :

[kclee6337]

In much of the advanced music publishers don't feel the need to put in pedal markings. I supposed they feel as tho if your playing the piece you already know how to use pedal, but you must be careful not to muddy the piece thats what I'm trying to clean up right now. Its best to practice completely without pedal, this will expose all your weak points and will allow you to see where your not holding down notes long enough or when your making something staccato when it should be legato. Trust me it matters!!! even though you may have the pedal down, I can't really describe it but it matters and a listener that is paying attention will be able to notice.

in the grave it does have subito markings, this should be abrupt and take the listener by surprise, no crescendo leading to it and no decrescendo coming out. If you can imagine, the piano although it had be around for a little while and music has been written for it for sometime. most people still had and were hearing harpsichords which never got louder of softer, So not only in this sonata by beethoven but many others he really capitalizes on this matter forcing the listener to pay attention to whats going on.

as for the crotchet? No idea sadly I'm from america so I don't know what that means but it is in common time. watch this video he gives some good advice as well as how to count it out. although i still never do.

&feature=related

[mattimias]

Just listen and go from there. Not that this is the best or utmost rendition but nothing to sneeze at either. I did this piece maybe 25 years ago so I will reserve comment as it isn't fresh in my mind any longer. Anyway, first movement :

Thanks! I've watched that video before. I think I'll look for different videos on the First movement. It should prove interesting and give me a better idea on how I should play it.

In much of the advanced music publishers don't feel the need to put in pedal markings. I supposed they feel as tho if your playing the piece you already know how to use pedal, but you must be careful not to muddy the piece thats what I'm trying to clean up right now. Its best to practice completely without pedal, this will expose all your weak points and will allow you to see where your not holding down notes long enough or when your making something staccato when it should be legato. Trust me it matters!!! even though you may have the pedal down, I can't really describe it but it matters and a listener that is paying attention will be able to notice.

in the grave it does have subito markings, this should be abrupt and take the listener by surprise, no crescendo leading to it and no decrescendo coming out. If you can imagine, the piano although it had be around for a little while and music has been written for it for sometime. most people still had and were hearing harpsichords which never got louder of softer, So not only in this sonata by beethoven but many others he really capitalizes on this matter forcing the listener to pay attention to whats going on.

as for the crotchet? No idea sadly I'm from america so I don't know what that means but it is in common time. watch this video he gives some good advice as well as how to count it out. although i still never do.

&feature=related

I see... So I should go with my gut feeling and play what sounds right? Also, the notes with subito markings should sound abrupt? Thanks!

I don't quite rely on counting, but that video really helped me. Thanks again.

I still have some problems with speed, but I think I'll leave that for later. I'm prioritising my rhythm, dynamics, tone and the ornaments for now. Should I 'drag out' the chords in the 'grave' section? I know that Beethoven was sort of a hybrid Romantic/Classical composer, and since Romantic music entails a certain freedom of expression, I was wondering if I could deviate slightly from the markings once I've fully mastered this piece.

[kclee6337]

yes, learning the piece count out the beats and know were they should go and when you should hit them, after you have the timing down you can begin to stretch some of the down beats like in measure 1,2,3. measure four I've heard some people take it waayyy out of context and it sounds fancy but play it how its written. then on measures 5-8 don't rush but don't play to slow to lose the rhythm and be sure your left hand stays quiet and the right really sings here. on all the measures you can put a little more special emphasis on the 1st beat and hold it out a little longer but not to terrible much.

on the subito chords don't just bang away, most people have the tendency to become rather tense here people will raise their shoulders and do all sorts of non sense. what I do is try to focus the weight of my arms and letting gravity drop my hands into place. somewhat hard to explain, just get your fingers over the keys and drop your arms like a dead weight, this will give you the best tone and sound the fullest.

when practicing go at a deathly slow pace especially in the allegro di molt e con brio part. and be sure your doing all the right fingerings even though they may seem awkward at first they will definitely help when it comes to speeding up the piece. I haven't looked at any other editions but the edition i have (g.henle verlag urtext yada yada yada) they have excellent fingerings for this.

[mattimias]

yes, learning the piece count out the beats and know were they should go and when you should hit them, after you have the timing down you can begin to stretch some of the down beats like in measure 1,2,3. measure four I've heard some people take it waayyy out of context and it sounds fancy but play it how its written. then on measures 5-8 don't rush but don't play to slow to lose the rhythm and be sure your left hand stays quiet and the right really sings here. on all the measures you can put a little more special emphasis on the 1st beat and hold it out a little longer but not to terrible much.

on the subito chords don't just bang away, most people have the tendency to become rather tense here people will raise their shoulders and do all sorts of non sense. what I do is try to focus the weight of my arms and letting gravity drop my hands into place. somewhat hard to explain, just get your fingers over the keys and drop your arms like a dead weight, this will give you the best tone and sound the fullest.

when practicing go at a deathly slow pace especially in the allegro di molt e con brio part. and be sure your doing all the right fingerings even though they may seem awkward at first they will definitely help when it comes to speeding up the piece. I haven't looked at any other editions but the edition i have (g.henle verlag urtext yada yada yada) they have excellent fingerings for this.

I see... So I shouldn't tense up my shoulders at all, but just drop my hands onto the notes? My edition has some good fingerings but isn't quite comprehensive. Still, thanks for the advice. I've been practising at a rather slow but steady pace. I've got the notes/fingerings down for the 'Grave' part; only the last ornament left now. It's the chromatic scale, so I should be able to play it with little Problems.

[scherzo123]

[kedix1414]

I think you might want to work on other aspects of piano more before you play this piece. My reasoning, mainly, questions 1, 2, and 3. There's more to music than technique (in fact, technique no more makes you a musician than owning a dictionary makes me a poet), so even if you can play the piece technique-wise, you're moving too fast. But I'll humor you with some answers.

1. Yes, the rightmost pedal is the one you should use the most in piano. It's called the sustain pedal, for future reference. The leftmost pedal, una corda, or the "soft pedal", is very rarely used and should not be used as a substitute for being able to play quietly using your fingers alone. The sostenuto pedal doesn't even work the way it does on a grand on most upright pianos, but it's used to hold down only the notes that are pressed down when the pedal is pressed down.

2. Yes, fortepianos and sforzandos are supposed to be abrupt.

3. I can't stop laughing at this question because I picture a British man asking about crumpets 
After some Googling, I'm assuming you're asking about 4 beats to the measure? The sonata's first movement, at least at the beginning (I've never actually played the piec) is in common time, so yes, 4 counts to a crotchet should suffice!

I have to say that I've made the mistake of moving too fast on the piano.  I tried to tackle an advanced piece of music in middle school before I was ready.  I was able to "technically" play it, but I had loads of trouble, and the piece sounded mediocre.  However, the next year I brushed up the piece again for a competition and was amazed at how easily I could play it, and how beautiful it sounded.

 I don't know what your situation is because I have never heard you play.  However, my advice to anyone is that if you feel VERY challenged while playing a piece and it feels very difficult, you should wait.  The majority of the pieces I learn are in my skill level with some tricky sections.  Even with that said, I do like to challenge myself sometimes  

It's your choice in the end, so do what you want to do.  My only advice is if the piece feels too hard, wait for a year or two.  You may be surprised by how easily you can play it at that point.

[rmbarbosa]

Hello! I`m four years old and began playing piano since yesterday. Now I`m learning the Apassionata and need some advice: those things white and black that look like domino pieces are the keys, right? For what are they in the piano? Must I touch them to produce some kinf of sound? And, in Apassionata, must I use the pedals with my feet or with my hands? For know, theese are my only questions about how to play Apassionata... Also, I want to play the "Emperor". How many days do you think I must spend learning this Concert? 3 days? One week? Any advice? Thanks, fellows!

[counterpoint]

Hello! I`m four years old and began playing piano since yesterday. Now I`m learning the Apassionata and need some advice:

1. You should download the sheet music and print it out
2. The points on the note paper are the notes you have to play
    Take a note from the right side, if the note is in the upper 5 lines of the system.
3. the b and # signs are interesting as well. they often mean, you should hit one of the black domino pieces
4. I think, everything else you will find out by yourself.

Good luck!

    

[davidjosepha]

3. the b and # signs are interesting as well. they often mean, you should hit one of the black domino pieces

Note that it is not important which black domino you hit, it is only important that you do hit one of them.

[rmbarbosa]

Oh, thanks, thanks a lot. With your advices, tomorrow I`ll be a great professional pianist! Lol

[davidjosepha]

Oh, thanks, thanks a lot. With your advices, tomorrow I`ll be a great professional pianist! Lol

No, you don't understand. You'll be literally as good as Horowitz, but you'll still be unemployed because you haven't gotten people to hear you yet. It's all politics, really, nothing to do with talent.