I'm going too fast?

[gleeok]

Hello! I will write a short explanation of my current situation so you can have a better understanding of my current level. I hadn't played for almost 6 years, but my total piano study time (with a teacher) was just of a few months. Regardless of what I forgot, I started playing again little more than a week ago. Since I'm not approaching piano with professional intentions, I chose to study by myself.

I've been picking a few sheets here and from an beginner instructional book I used to "get back on tracks" in the first days, but approaching them more for exercising (very simple arrangements). The only ones I played for "real" until now, was a simplified arrangement of "The entertainer" which I skipped before reaching the full speed, but I was able to play it, and Bach's "Minuet BWV Anh. 115" (this one was a courtesy of piano street  ). Then I ran out of ideas. I browsed the free scores here but wasn't able to find anything acceptable for myself (most of them are too hard), but then I saw "Canon in D", and after seeing it was level 2, I'm giving it a try.

I made considerable progress the last 2 days, comparable to the learning process of BWV Anh. 115, but much slower. The thing is, I'm still uncertain if I should keep studying it, or skip to something easier before trying this one. Since I don't have a teacher and have barely no sense of chronology of how long it might take to learn a piece, it's hard to self-evaluate whether I'm doing it right or chasing an impossible cause, this is perhaps the hardest thing about studying alone; for me. And also the main reason I've been very cautious when picking new pieces to learn.

Should I keep going? How do I know when I'm trying something too hard for myself?

It's hard to segregate an impossible cause from the usual difficulty of trying a brand new piece.

[ajspiano]

Should I keep going? How do I know when I'm trying something too hard for myself?

Bernhard might have said "when it takes you more than 7 repetitions to learn whatever section you are attemping"

For a more useful answer..

or rather, multitude of answers and suggestions...  go here - https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1

Stick to pieces in your current level, once you've done a few, try some in the next level.. If you ever feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall, consider that it may not be too hard, you're just practicing it ineffectively. Break it into something smaller, try again. Be concious about your practice, what works? what doesnt?

And remember to be musical, - play pieces you like the sound of.

And... PM if you want links to more reading material.

[outin]

Bernhard might have said "when it takes you more than 7 repetitions to learn whatever section you are attemping"

Oh

Then everything is too hard for me ...  Because it can take me much more to learn any simple section. My finger memory is lousy (or slow to develope) and especially chords take ages to get automatic. I guess my brain is more wired for problem solving than memorizing, it takes less time to learn something that requires a lot of brain work to execute (like a complex rhythm pattern or left/right hand coordination).

But I also wonder if some of my pieces are too hard, because even after finally learning the notes I still cannot get the piece to sound right. It's  technical issue, maybe partly also my piano, but getting the touch right just seems impossible. Then again I can't get the easy pieces to sound good either. I guess need my teacher to evaluate that. Without teacher it would be really difficult to know if I am just too critical.

In general I think it's too hard it trying to learn something causes pain and stiffness or complete lack of motivation due to no noticeable progress even after concentrated practice.

[ajspiano]

Oh

Then everything is too hard for me ...  Because it can take me much more to learn any simple section.

I wouldn't take that too seriously unless you've actually read any of his posts re 7 x 20 principle and how to break up a piece into manageable sections. Which in some cases means as little as just 2 consecutive notes .. - a process that can feasibly make even VERY demanding works possible for relatively inexperienced pianists who have the patience to chip away at something so meticulously.

..As well as have an understanding of PPI, and how the brain forgets and then relearns information...

...and a basic idea of how to identify and correct technical problems..

[outin]

I wouldn't take that too seriously unless you've actually read any of his posts re 7 x 20 principle and how to break up a piece into manageable sections. Which in some cases means as little as just 2 consecutive notes .. - a process that can feasibly make even VERY demanding works possible for relatively inexperienced pianists who have the patience to chip away at something so meticulously.

..As well as have an understanding of PPI, and how the brain forgets and then relearns information...

OK, thanks. Please remind me, what is PPI? I guess I am not really waken up yet.

[ajspiano]

OK, thanks. Please remind me, what is PPI? I guess I am not really waken up yet.

A short explanation..

7 repetitions is supposedly an ideal number as far as efficiency and how the brain operates, its sufficient to learn something to a point that is fluent.

Then you can practice playing it fluently and musically for no longer than ~20 minutes (7 x 20) - once 20 minutes has elapsed you have kind of given your brain a work out, its learnt well..  practicing beyond that time frame results in a massive loss of practice efficiency for a bunch of reasons. This is when you let PPI - or post practice improvement - take over. In other words, you just let your brain physically adapt to what its just experienced. It makes new cell connections, and it does this best over night, when you're asleep.

Chang actually says something like 50-100 repetitions are required to get PPI working. I rather equate that to bernhards "practice time" the 20..  vs the 7 reps to learn.

Now, If you're going to practice beyond 20 minutes, its better to do a different piece, or section of the same piece..  learn something new..  which locks something else into PPI for the night..  or longer if you repeat the process on subsequent days.

On following days, you usually wake up and find that you have totally forgotten what you learnt the day before, BUT, you learn re-learn it and that process happens way faster than the day before. You reach the same level of proficiency on the given section in less time.

....

seriously though, don't take my half baked rushed explanation that probably has holes an slightly wrong info..  just read this, then go read other similar threads that explain further..

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4710.msg44538.html#msg44538

[outin]

Oh, thanks! I just didn't realise what PPI stood for

I don't need to read about it, I have always intuitively worked like this. I usually practice a section until I get tired/bored (my mind starts to wander) and then stop because I know very well that it's no benefit to go on. The next day I almost always notice that it is not so hard as I thought, sometimes I even miraculously play it fluently. So yes, definitely much of my learning happens subconsciously away from the piano.

I think the figure 7 is just a random number, it must be individual how many repetitions are beneficial. For someone with a very short attention span it might even be just 3.

[ajspiano]

I kind of included the full explanation and link for any other readers.. didnt mean to offend at all (i don't think you were though right?).

7 actually is specific though under bernhard's method, - for it to be the most efficient.. as in if you can learn something in 3 repeats (for example) then you could've managed something bigger. Obviously you can still do whatever you want though.. I think it's pretty tough to convince someone that 7 is magic, you know, rather than 6 or 8..

[outin]

I kind of included the full explanation and link for any other readers.. didnt mean to offend at all (i don't think you were though right?).

Of course not, I just felt a bit sorry that I made you write all that stuff

7 actually is specific though under bernhard's method, - for it to be the most efficient.. as in if you can learn something in 3 repeats (for example) then you could've managed something bigger. Obviously you can still do whatever you want though.. I think it's pretty tough to convince someone that 7 is magic, you know, rather than 6 or 8..

I would think so, unless our nervous system is somehow programmed to this number

For myself, to be able to concentrate on something as many as 7 times in a row is hard. I think it might be because I still need to learn such basic stuff that is actually pretty boring... Stuff that is not difficult for my brain, it's just difficult for my brain/hand/finger coordination or simply my hand/finger coordination alone.

[hfmadopter]

Of course not, I just felt a bit sorry that I made you write all that stuff


I would think so, unless our nervous system is somehow programmed to this number

For myself, to be able to concentrate on something as many as 7 times in a row is hard. I think it might be because I still need to learn such basic stuff that is actually pretty boring... Stuff that is not difficult for my brain, it's just difficult for my brain/hand/finger coordination or simply my hand/finger coordination alone.

I think you should do some chord and scale work. It isn't a bad idea to have an excercise in the same key and related cadences as the pieces you work on. It will help with the natural flow and chordal progessions of the piece itself.

That Canon in D you are working on will give you, at your level, the most difficulty in the voicing of the melody. You need to articulate the voicing out of the chord patterns. This should come as you get more fluent in playing the entire piece and confidence in playing all the notes. At that point seek out the actual melody which is going to take some touch adjustment and otherwise accenting.. The piece is not overly difficult to find your way around though. Just break it down into smaller chunks, don't worry about how many repetitions it takes to learn for instance, a phrase but more that you don't get stuck and actually learn that phrase..

[outin]

I think you should do some chord and scale work. It isn't a bad idea to have an excercise in the same key and related cadences as the pieces you work on. It will help with the natural flow and chordal progessions of the piece itself.

That Canon in D you are working on will give you, at your level, the most difficulty in the voicing of the melody. You need to articulate the voicing out of the chord patterns. This should come as you get more fluent in playing the entire piece and confidence in playing all the notes. At that point seek out the actual melody which is going to take some touch adjustment and otherwise accenting.. The piece is not overly difficult to find your way around though. Just break it down into smaller chunks, don't worry about how many repetitions it takes to learn for instance, a phrase but more that you don't get stuck and actually learn that phrase..

I think you are mixing me with the OP. I have never and will never play the Canon in D 

I do my scales and arpeggios, when I'm in the mood, but I must admit that I find them boring and often just completely phase off and forget what I am doing while playing...

I think for us adult beginners/returners it makes a big diffenrence what pieces we play. One of the first pieces I started last year (before I had a teacher) was the Chopin prelude nro 4. I learned the notes but had to give it up because of tension and pain in my left hand. Couple of weeks ago I decided I will try again. The tension is all gone. I can concentrate on the balance (a bit tricky on my piano), voicing of the chords and fluent pedalling.

I notice that I can practice this piece for a long time without getting distracted at all just trying to make it sound better and better. Usually I get distracted very soon when practicing just one piece or one section. I think it's because I enjoy the music and listening to the result of my playing as opposed to most of the pieces I work on. I don't hate them, but I wouldn't really enjoy listening to anyone playing them either... I just need them to learn the technical stuff. I think if I had bigger hands I would go straight to the stuff I like (Chopin/Scriabin/Franck), but without more fluent and relaxed technique and some tricks I just cannot do them without developing tension.

[hfmadopter]

I think you are mixing me with the OP. I have never and will never play the Canon in D 

I do my scales and arpeggios, when I'm in the mood, but I must admit that I find them boring and often just completely phase off and forget what I am doing while playing...

Ya, I quoted the wrong response. Sorry about that, I like to try and be more clear than that normally. Sometimes I get over enthusiastic as my morning coffee starts to kick in ! If nothing else we found out you're not a fan of Canon in D.
David

[outin]

Ya, I quoted the wrong response. Sorry about that, I like to try and be more clear than that normally. Sometimes I get over enthusiastic as my morning coffee starts to kick in ! If nothing else we found out you're not a fan of Canon in D.

No problem, the idea of playing that thing just gave me some shudders...

[gleeok]

I think you should do some chord and scale work. It isn't a bad idea to have an excercise in the same key and related cadences as the pieces you work on. It will help with the natural flow and chordal progessions of the piece itself.

That Canon in D you are working on will give you, at your level, the most difficulty in the voicing of the melody. You need to articulate the voicing out of the chord patterns. This should come as you get more fluent in playing the entire piece and confidence in playing all the notes. At that point seek out the actual melody which is going to take some touch adjustment and otherwise accenting.. The piece is not overly difficult to find your way around though. Just break it down into smaller chunks, don't worry about how many repetitions it takes to learn for instance, a phrase but more that you don't get stuck and actually learn that phrase..

Thanks for the advice! Yes, it's been around 3 days since I started it now and I'm already feeling this won't be like the previous pieces, it needs much more dedication, like you suggested I'm breaking it down and working in isolated parts because of technical and physical difficulties they present, specially the lines for the left hand in the 2nd page, where I guess the distance between notes demand 90% of tactile reconnaissance, since I'm feeling this will be impossible to play if I take sudden looks at the keys while working on the precise hand coordination, at full speed.

"The piece is not overly difficult to find your way around though" - Definitely not impossible, but for me, this is indeed feeling much harder haha!