playing fours against threes

[felicityhubbard]

Has anyone any advice as to how to do this? For instance, playing triplet quavers against four semiquavers? Thanks!

[allchopin]

These threads are cloning themselves... we're gonna get usurped!  

[jlh]

um... yeah, just write in a vertical line in the music for every note (3's and 4's), and practice it slowly until you're comfortable with the pattern.

[one_wing3d_ang3l]

u foolz dun use a metronome!

[Indigo]

Hmm...  Well there is a Chopin Etude No. 1 of the three he wrote for the  "Method of Methods" of moscheles and Fetis... so the book says...  He uses triplet crotchets against four quavers which is what your trying to do.  The easiest way to do it is to write out the rhtyhm on paper.

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That demonstration is rough as guts but it is a basic description of what your trying to do.  Tap on the table or use two notes on the piano, say C and E, and practice the rhythm.  make it one of those practice sessions i keep reading about from Bernhard.  Start with one hand playing the four rhythm and then add the other hand with the three rhythm, maybe one beat at a time until you have the three going.  Then listen carefully to each hands tapping while practicing this to make sure you have an even rhythm.  change which hands are doing each rhythm so you become adept at the rhythm in both hands.  I learnt to do this while at work when i was bored.  Tap where ever you go...

[pianiststrongbad]

Learn the fantasie impromptu

[maxy]

Yup! that will solve everything!  

[jlh]

Or how about the ending of Chopin's Nocturne in D-flat?? ...though I think that's more of 7 to 6 than 4 to 3. =)

[felicityhubbard]

Thanks, that's ace, I will work on it and drive people mad with my tap tapping!

[Sketchee]

Hmm...  Well there is a Chopin Etude No. 1 of the three he wrote for the  "Method of Methods" of moscheles and Fetis... so the book says...  He uses triplet crotchets against four quavers which is what your trying to do.  The easiest way to do it is to write out the rhtyhm on paper.

This is the first etude from Trois Nouvelles Etudes.  Sheetmusicarchive.net has the score.  It's Andantino but the three against four does make it sound a bit quicker.  I'd probably recommend learning that instead of Fantasie Impromptu.  It's a shorter piece, very cool sounding and much less overplayed.

At this tempo you have to be more precise with the rhythm.  Also it's reversed from the Impromptu, with four in the left hand and three in the right.

Also take a look at the second in this set for 2 against 3

[Clare]

I like the drawing a diagram way, but I had a big struggle with three-against-four for ages and this is how I fixed it for good.

I DID use a metronome (don't see why that's such a stupid idea) and I put the beats on every beat of the four (in that case I think it was semiquavers). This was at a slow-ish setting. I practiced only the four hand. Then, I kept the metronome going, and practiced playing the three against it, just with one hand. That's probably the trickiest part. But you can observe exactly how much after the first beat and before the last beat of the metronome you have to go in order for it to get all even. Then, play hands together still paying attention to exactly where you need to play bits 2 and 3 of the triplet. When you get it, you will know.

This method works particularly for a piece you've already put hands together but with uneven 3-against-4 because it undoes all your wrongness.

When you can do it at a slow metronome speed, playing it at a fast is a bloody relief. It feels so great, and once again, you will know when it's right. It's like the two parts can coexist really relaxingly.

[felicityhubbard]

Thank you again! I've now printed off the Chopin Etude to practise, and have worked out how to do 3s against 4s really slowly (almost like the metronome way, ta for that!). I made the breakthrough in the middle of a particularly long lecture, it passed the time admirably! I worked out exactly where the beats should come by multiplying 3 and 4 (to get 12 obviously!), and then marking which number of the 12 'beats' each hand should be moving on - eg. for right hand fours - 1, 4, 7, 10 and for left hand threes - 1, 5, 9. It helped if I said the numbers out loud (though not in the middle of a lecture...). I'll try and speed it up using a metronome now. I suppose the multiplying thing could be used for other rhythms (4 against 5 etc) although it would probably get very tedious.

[jlh]

The rhythm is pretty close to:

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Or for 2 against 3:

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[galonia]

When I was very little, my teacher suggested a rhyme to help:

Bach,    Mozart, Brahms and Liszt.

   |           |              |                 |
   |                |                    |

That helps to keep things even.

[will]

I was told of a similar method, except saying

  I             I          I
"Drink  a cup of   coffee"
  I        I         I         I

...Sophisticated I know, but I found it quite effective.