Piano actions -- perhaps a stupid question...

[iansinclair]

for the folks who know about actions!  I had never had the priviledge (?) of playing a digital piano until a week or so ago; organ, yes.  Harpsichord, yes.  My own Steinways, yes.  Digital, no.  About a week ago I got tagged as the replacement organist for a few weeks for my church (as you know, I used to be an church organist -- now retired).  And some of the things I want to do I want to do on piano, and the church has a very nice digital; a top end Kawai (I don't have the model number handy).

The action is vaguely reminiscent of a piano.  Vaguely.  But is worse than even my 100 plus year old Steinway upright, never mind my two grands.

Is there any good reason why a digital piano can't have a full grand action in there, complete with hammers and all, but instead of whacking a string the hammers whack a sensor, and the computers take it from there (it's not the sound quality I mind -- it's good enough, if sort of Baldwiny).  After all the critical parameter is the energy which the hammer imparts to the string...

Some piano action tech type?

[quantum]

The action is only part of the sound in a digital instrument.  There is also the factor of digital samples, and reproduction or sound.  In digital sampling of a piano a certain number of dynamic levels are captured per key.  This stepwise approach is a far cry from the fine analogue granularity one can achieve through the direct leverage one obtains on an acoustic from finger to string.  There are far more options to control the tone and character of a single key in an acoustic piano, than is made available to a digital.  On a digital, you are provided only the tonal variations the recording engineers thought would be pertinent to the instrument.  You can't achieve a certain tonal quality on digital, if it was never sampled in the first place.  

Then there is the issue of sound reproduction.  Often the weakest link to a digital piano is the speakers.  You are probably familiar with the organ pipe vs digital debate.  Similar arguments can be made for digital pianos.  No matter how perfectly you sample a pipe / string, there is this visceral quality to the real thing that cannot be matched by a digital reproduction.  It is not only the sound of a single note, but how that note interacts with the space and intermingles with adjacent sonorities. 

I've played many DP's and acoustic pianos, and when it comes to playing music for others would still prefer that beat-up out-of-tune vertical piano to a state-of-the-art digital.  I've found that even such pianos are capable of a surprisingly good amount of expression.  

[ionian_tinnear]

I've had several DP's. Rolands, Kurzweil and not a Yamaha.  The Rolands weren't bad (A-90, not available anymore), the Kurzweils were horrible (PC2,K2600XS) the PC88 model was not so bad.  My yamaha S90-es i love.  The action is pretty good, much better dynamic range that the others.

As for the sound, a DP sounds like a recording of a piano because it's samples ARE recordings of pianos.  For playing in an ensemble (musical theatre pits for me) they are more than fine.  For solo recitals, I'd pass and just use my old model M.

To get even better sound from the DP I'll hook it up to a Muse Receptor and use a plug-in.  The settings available give me lots of control over all aspects of the sound.  Including the sensitivity of how the device responds to velocity data.  But this is pretty expensive way to go.  The pianos in the Yamaha are exceptable, for practice.

And as already stated uncountable, the speakers make all the difference.  A piano has a large sound board, to have a chance of sounding sort of real, the speakers also must be large.  I use only 15", never smaller, and I have an 18" sub-woofer for the really low sounds, like from church organ pedals.

[hfmadopter]

I agree that digital touch is different from acoustic touch. However, how old is this Kawai ? I ask because the latest models may be a bit heavy but should be accurate and feel as close as digital gets to acoustic feel. older Kawais may not be in the same boat.

And some folks just love Yamaha ( for instance) feel !!
David

[iansinclair]

I don't know how old the piano is -- I'll get the model number (it must be on there somewhere) next time I go to practice -- tomorrow, I suppose.

For Ionian -- it isn't really the tone quality I'm complaining about.  Considering that it is an electronic whiz-bang, it isn't that bad (please don't get me started on digital organs, though -- although I have played one (count them: one) which was really remarkably good; it was in a large church, and, as I recall, had set them back something on the order of $75,000 US, most of which went, as it should have into the amplifiers and speakers).  It's the touch.

It may be that it's just an older model...

And it may be that a complete action with the necessary sensors would simply be too expensive to justify?

And it may be that I'm just hopelessly spoiled by my own pianos!

[hfmadopter]

I don't know how old the piano is -- I'll get the model number (it must be on there somewhere) next time I go to practice -- tomorrow, I suppose.

And it may be that I'm just hopelessly spoiled by my own pianos!

Well, I have to say I'm keeping my old Henry F Miller Grand around for a reason. As old as it is I can adjust the action to my liking very well. Nice piano,nice tone, just old so it requires attention and it doesn't sparkle like today's models do. Not unlike myself !

Old acoustic grand pianos never die, people just let them wither away. Not mine though.

[lhorwinkle]

Is there any good reason why a digital piano can't have a full grand action in there, complete with hammers and all, but instead of whacking a string the hammers whack a sensor, and the computers take it from there (it's not the sound quality I mind -- it's good enough, if sort of Baldwiny).  After all the critical parameter is the energy which the hammer imparts to the string...

There are digital pianos with a grand action: the Yamaha Avant Grand series.

The lowest price N1 model sells for around $7000.
The N2 is higher.
The high-end N3 goes for $10,000-$13,000.

I've never tried one of those, but you have to wonder: Why pay that much for a digital when you can get a real grand piano for not much more?

[iansinclair]

There are digital pianos with a grand action: the Yamaha Avant Grand series.

The lowest price N1 model sells for around $7000.
The N2 is higher.
The high-end N3 goes for $10,000-$13,000.

I've never tried one of those, but you have to wonder: Why pay that much for a digital when you can get a real grand piano for not much more?

Perhaps the matter explains itself... And I would have to agree -- why pay that much when you can get the real thing...

But perhaps my experience elsewhere with really good digital organs (rather limited!) is illuminating: for those, the motivation isn't cost, but space.  In the case of the cited Yamahas, possibly the consideration is partly space, but also perhaps the ability to play in total silence externally?

[hfmadopter]

Perhaps the matter explains itself... And I would have to agree -- why pay that much when you can get the real thing...

But perhaps my experience elsewhere with really good digital organs (rather limited!) is illuminating: for those, the motivation isn't cost, but space.  In the case of the cited Yamahas, possibly the consideration is partly space, but also perhaps the ability to play in total silence externally?

Yes size and silent playing are a big part of the digital rage in pianos, not just at the high end.
David

[nystul]

The expense obviously would limit real grand actions only to the top tier of digital pianos (5000+ USD anyway).  But also a real grand action would add a lot of weight, which equals more expenses and eliminates some of the practical benefits of digital.  So it's a niche market.  You also have competition within that market from hybrid pianos with the silent systems equipped.

Granted I think the type of massive digital organ you reference is also in a small market.  If someone doesn't go to a church with such a thing, he might not know it exists.

[iansinclair]

The digital organs I mention are, most assuredly, a limited market -- and space is the consideration.  The consoles are, of necessity, full AGO spec.  And they draw very nearly as much power for the amplifiers as a real one does for the blowers!  However, it must be said that finding a place for a few very large speakers is a lot easier than finding space for, say, a nice rank of 32 pedal principals ranging in length from 16 feet down... !

For David -- the piano in question isn't that old; it's a CA95. 

[hfmadopter]

For David -- the piano in question isn't that old; it's a CA95. 

That's unfortunate. However it does have touch curve available, that is to say light, medium and heavy touch adjustability.
David