Stray notes

[rachmaninoff_forever]

How do you get rid of stray notes?

Like even if I know a piece perfectly, I don't really have any technical issues or anything, it can be the easiest piece in the world, I ALWAYS manage to hit a stray note somewhere!  And it's never in the same spot!  What the heck is going on here?!  And the longer the work, the more stray notes I get!  Is there any way to deal with this?  Because this is getting a little out of hand...

[davidjosepha]

How do you get rid of stray notes?

Like even if I know a piece perfectly, I don't really have any technical issues or anything, it can be the easiest piece in the world, I ALWAYS manage to hit a stray note somewhere!  And it's never in the same spot!  What the heck is going on here?!  And the longer the work, the more stray notes I get!  Is there any way to deal with this?  Because this is getting a little out of hand...

I know what you're talking about and have the same problem, sometimes. I don't know how to stop them entirely (and apparently neither do professional pianists, because they have them too, albeit less often than you or me ), but I do know that you can reduce the frequency considerably.

I just don't know how.

Let's hope someone else here does

[perprocrastinate]

And I thought I was the only one..

[scherzo123]

And I thought I was the only one..

me too...

[j_menz]

Electroshock aversion therapy.

[ajspiano]

I guess their should be a lable on the piano.. "Being human may lead to making errors when attempting to play perfectly.." ??

More seriously though, I could probably write a book to try and explain this properly (I wont, because other people already have), but perhaps a reason for a higher frequency of errors may be a result of the fact that you actually don't know the piece as well as you think...

As an example, suppose that you've memorised the piece?

Which may perhaps be done the following ways..

• Visually memorised the score
• Visually memorised the layout of the keys
• Aurally memorised the sound of the piece
• Physically memorised the feel of your movements
• Physically memorised the feel of the keys

In reality you probably used a combination of all of these, maybe some more so than others, and most importantly they fill in each others gaps - as if there are cues between them. Every method is intrinsically linked with every other method.

What if you were required to rely on one (or two, because its difficult to truly isolate them) method exclusively?

Say, if you have a DP, switch it off, and put on a blind fold. Can you still play the piece without the sound of the piano and the look of the keys cuing your memory?

Away from the piano, can you recite in your mind the physical movements and look of your hands over the keys without having a piano to actually look at?

Can you hear in you're mind the sound of every single note without physically playing them aswell?

etc. etc.

I suppose that the stronger each method is on its own the more solid the piece will be over all, -  and if one method fails you are note left with a gap.

And i suppose that this is important because stray notes are probably the result of subconscious slips in any particular department.

Really if you truly know the piece you shouldn't have any sections where you are forced to think about anything at all other than the sound you wish to make. No thinking. Just sound.

*you may have to do a substantial amount of thinking in order to be able to stop yourself thinking.

...

It's also possible for the reason to be something like even though you are technically comfortable, you are totally blind to the fact that you could be far more technically comfortable. This can happen when you're tackling something that is easy enough to do with out working at it, - you are not forced to develop a "perfect" way to execute it. It can also happen if you're not super pedantic about producing exactly the sounds you want.

[davidjosepha]

Thanks for the write-up, it was helpful. I've thought about some of things you say about memorization and I've tried to work on these things. I've gotten pieces to the point where I really don't have stray notes anymore, although the effort required to get them to that state is about 3 times as much as it would take to get the piece to the same level plus a couple stray notes here and there. In other words, I'm not sure it's worth the trade-off unless you really want to play a piece perfectly. However, as with all skills, I'm sure learning a piece beyond the point where you'd make any mistakes would make it easier the next time around, so it might be something worth putting time into. What do you think about that?

[ajspiano]

I think its absolutely worth while to learn pieces to an extremely high standard in all regards like that..  though it can be an enormously gargantuan effort, but.. that that amount of effort is generally a result of an ineffective process.

Comparitevely to some peoples intention to "get used to the notes" then start being musical, and kind of hope their technique falls into place..

I try to combine all factors of learning together if I can, memorisation, music and technique all linked together and all done at the same time, and funnily enough (and I see this in both myself and students) - that process results in faster learning of all factors.

So I would never just play through something if it presents any difficulty at all.

Process simplified/rushed would be like:
look at section of score, close eyes, imagine look of score.. look at score again. look at keys, visualise keys I will play, play keys. Look at score again, "hear the notes" (sight sing it in my head). Begin investigating hand positions/arm motions in small note clusters. after investigation play notes with fluent technique, do it again with eyes closed, practice technique with different interpretive ideas..  learning theoretical structure by transposing through several keys.

^this all post score analysis..  because I usually isolate things like commonly used left/right coordinations, such as rhythmic patterns and learn them quickly in the context of something I'm technically familiar with, such as a scale..  as well as in some cases writing out the score by hand. Amazing how much you realise you're not looking at properly until you actually try to write out the score.

Writing out the score. Good tool. You look at what you're writing, therefore must be done by memory, and you have to look at and recall the score A LOT of times with more complex music to get all the phrasing, voicing and articulations correct... and it can be done in context with playing small sections..  associating the sound to the score.. etc.

[j_menz]

I do it completely differently.

I do sit down and just play through something. Then again, and again.

If there are some specific technical challenges that I need to iron out, I do that as a separate exercise.  Depending on the score, mere familiarity (3-4 play throughs) will generally increase my speed 20-30%, so I don't sweat it if I'm in that sort of ballpark slow. If I'm much slower than that, though, I treat it as a series of technical problems and sort out accordingly. Any persistent stray notes occassion a localised review of technique/fingering and I sort out to remove the problem.

What I am looking for when I'm playing is the music, and the musical possibilities. The better I understand this, the easier it is to play, and the less likely I am to hit a stray note or a bum note. And once it becomes a matter of just playing the music, the notes just look after themselves.

[ajspiano]

i should probably define difficulty.. 

That would be my process for something that I expect will take me significant time to learn, and is the process as applied to the figures which I have found to be difficult through testing just trying to play through.. and then approached as an isolated small section..

Which is probably the only thing that I define as being difficult, because anything beneath that I don't necessarily need to do that stuff..  or rather, the whole lot of it gets done quickly in the context of a playing through larger sections..?

In a less complicated figure, its possible to simply "feel" out the required technique, and apply musicality in the context of the whole section of music. Immediately. As well as just read the sound straight off the score..

You are also no doubt a far stronger sight-reader than me..  which no doubt impacts the necessity for you to memorise at all.

The thing I notice with students is that they play through, and fail to stop and isolate the problems.. they just want to keep banging their head against a brick wall. They have no process or plan to fix problems, just a vague notion that if they keep playing the whole piece everything will sort itself out eventually. Or as an alternative, they get to focused perfecting a small piece and forget to play the whole thing ever at all...   there's a balance..

EDIT:
I also think that its different for someone like you, more so than me, but also for someone like me or any reasonably experienced pianist - in that we will frequently run into figures that we can play right away without significant effort. Comparitively to beginner/intermediate pianists for whom every new piece presents a challenge even when at the same level as several others they've recently learnt.

A strong process for fixing problems means quite plainly, more problems fixed in less time, so the pianist gets closer and closer to having the facility to just play patterns that are either totally or relatively unfamiliar.

What I am looking for when I'm playing is the music, and the musical possibilities. The better I understand this, the easier it is to play

This was also part of my point, in that musical possibilities should be investigated ASAP even when isolating tiny sections because that direction of sound has a significant impact on your facility to play the notes at hand.

[j_menz]

OK, that makes sense. And sounds much closer than what I had originally read it as being. I still wind up needing the score under my nose though. Not a problem, barring  page turns! 

[pianoman53]

It's also about how you practice. A few years back, I got so sick of being scared of playing Bach fugues, so that I always started the practice round with playing it so slowly that I could imagine the note I was playing, the note I just played, and the note I would play next. It wasn't very fun while I did it, but the result was that I, not only, weren't scared of playing it anymore, but I could also play it from memory some years later, basically without practicing... which was pretty cool.

Btw, the thing ajs wrote about memorization (seeing the score in your head, etc.) is a very good way of falling asleep, once you get a hang of it.

[ajspiano]

Btw, the thing ajs wrote about memorization (seeing the score in your head, etc.) is a very good way of falling asleep, once you get a hang of it.

I can agree with that, that particular process is fairly mentally draining..  and for me personally, visualisation of the score is these days is totally connected with the aural image. That being that if I know the sound, then I know the score. And I personally find score visual memory to be pretty out of use the further I get into a piece, I'm all ear/feel of keys/visual of keys. Which is probably partly because my sight reading is weak, or perhaps one of the reasons my sight reading is weak too...   

It's also about how you practice. A few years back, I got so sick of being scared of playing Bach fugues, so that I always started the practice round with playing it so slowly that I could imagine the note I was playing, the note I just played, and the note I would play next. It wasn't very fun while I did it, but the result was that I, not only, weren't scared of playing it anymore, but I could also play it from memory some years later, basically without practicing... which was pretty cool.

This is a cool point. I read about that one a while ago..   the idea being that if you play so slowly that you disconnect yourself from using your learnt muscle memory and physical movement patterns you can test if you truly remember the sequence of notes.

[pianoman53]

This is a cool point. I read about that one a while ago..   the idea being that if you play so slowly that you disconnect yourself from using your learnt muscle memory and physical movement patterns you can test if you truly remember the sequence of notes.

And the idea is also to take "slow practicing" a step further.  The point is not only to take disconnect the muscle memory, but to also listen carefully to everything.
Obviously it can become a very technical way of practicing, if one only focus on the notes. Though, since it's so very slowly, one can focus on everything else too! (I feel like I'm the host of a TV-shop commercial, but I guess I have to live with that for now).
If one plays it as if it was written that slowly; phrasing everything, making sure everything is evenly played, etc., playing in tempo will become very much easier.

The only downside is that it's so extremely tiring... After 20 minutes, you have to rest for a while..

[davidjosepha]

Very insightful and helpful responses from all of you! Thank you

[hfmadopter]

It happens to everyone at some point in a piece I think. The key is to over learn as some have said and to go back and work specifically on the weak spots as some one else said. The thing is, IMO, if you hit a wrong note and it doesn't derail your performance of the piece, you just keep trucking sort to speak. You know the piece when you hear a finger tweak off an incorrect note accidentally, your mind can take notice of it and yet you don't lose your place, just keep going with full expression and feel for the piece as a whole ( I.E. doesn't rattle your cage).

Your situation where you are hitting many incorrect notes in several locations of the piece is something else again. When that happens to me and when it happened to me in the past when I played to a higher level than I do these days, I knew/know I need more work on the piece.
David

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Very insightful and helpful responses from all of you! Thank you

Hey that's my line!  I'm the original poster!!!

 

[davidjosepha]

Hey that's my line!  I'm the original poster!!!

 

This is an example of a not very insightful or helpful response.

 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

This is an example of a not very insightful or helpful response.

 

That's it...  I'm gonna do it!  Don't make me do it, because I don't want to!  But if I have to, I will not hesitate to do it!

And I don't have to give a response!  I'm the one who asked the question!  What the heck?! 

[scherzo123]

That's it...  I'm gonna do it!  Don't make me do it, because I don't want to!  But if I have to, I will not hesitate to do it!

And I don't have to give a response!  I'm the one who asked the question!  What the heck?! 

ROFLMAO.

[asuhayda]

How do you get rid of stray notes?

I have the same problem...  maybe it's just unavoidable.  It has been less frustrating for me to concentrate more on how to handle making a mistake than it has been to avoid making them completely.. that has been a futile effort for me.  Like you said, even on easy pieces - same problem.

[invictious]

Change your name to Sviratoslav Richter or Marc-Andre Hamelin, and get the same kind of glasses.

Or alternatively, just perform atonal pieces.

EDIT: And of course, György Cziffra too.

[lelle]

Change your name to Sviratoslav Richter or Marc-Andre Hamelin, and get the same kind of glasses.

Or alternatively, just perform atonal pieces.

Richter could hit quite a few wrong notes at times though