Relaxation...

[dam]

Hello,

Everybody is ok to say that relaxation is one of the most important key to play the piano with the richest sound and with less effort. But relaxation is a quite vague concept. The question I ask is : "When are you absolutely sure that you're relax (before and while playing) ? What are the visual or "internal" indicators of that state ?"

I would like to thank every members of this forum because there is a lot of interesting reading here. The link towards C.C. Chang book was decisive too.

Dam

[donjuan]

well, if you are relaxed, your sympathetic nervous system wont be firing, so you will not have a dry mouth or rapid heartbeat or respiration rate.  You know you are relaxed if you can extend all your fingers without them violently convulsing.  (This is a big problem for me)

You know you are relaxed if the sound of the piano in front of you is not brittle. (watch Claudio Arrau play- now HE is relaxed)
donjuan

[dam]

Thanks Donjuan,

My problem is that I have to think about "relaxation" to be relax. I have to stop all the time while I'm playing to recover this zero-status. According to you, the totally relax playing is possible ? Absolutely normal breath ?

It seems difficult to imagine that a pianist breathes normally, at a personal rhythm, against the musical time and its own respirations and caesuras.

Dam.

[xvimbi]

Thanks Donjuan,

My problem is that I have to think about "relaxation" to be relax. I have to stop all the time while I'm playing to recover this zero-status. According to you, the totally relax playing is possible ? Absolutely normal breath ?

It seems difficult to imagine that a pianist breathes normally, at a personal rhythm, against the musical time and its own respirations and caesuras.

Dam.

Relaxation only means you are not engaging any muscles that should not be engaged, i.e. we are really talking about physical relaxation, not mental relaxation.

Breathing is exteremely important for making music, more important than most pianists realize. One's breathing should reflect the music to some extent, e.g. a short, sharp breath between two phrases will show the separation more clearly, because the whole body will react and create the little gap that you want.

[donjuan]

Thanks Donjuan,

My problem is that I have to think about "relaxation" to be relax. I have to stop all the time while I'm playing to recover this zero-status. According to you, the totally relax playing is possible ? Absolutely normal breath ?

It seems difficult to imagine that a pianist breathes normally, at a personal rhythm, against the musical time and its own respirations and caesuras.

Dam.

xvimbi's right about the breathing.

You will never want to play when you are totally relaxed because there are many exciting themes in music like love, war, sex, flirtations, etc.. and it would be boring if you are totally relaxed-No one would understand the music, it would be like listening to a MIDI.  Performers like the adrenaline kick -some pianists live off it.

on the other hand, if you are too wound up your fingers will probably be stiff, your hands cold and clammy, and your feet shaking upon the pedals.  This is a problem I too am trying to overcome.  Here is the thread I started to ask other members how to deal with this situation:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1095826476

donjuan

[pianodude]

Many people or teachers tell their students to be relax! I hate when people that I am stiff, because I did not how to fix the problem and nobody could ever show me how. However, I finally met my last teacher. She was able to show me how to make my hands, arms relax. Actually, it is very easy to acquire this as long as somebody can show you. Physcal contact is required to show how to do this.

In the past, I thought it was virtually impossible for me to play Revolutionary Etudes at Arrau's speed, however, after gaining the ability to make my hands relax, his speed is actually not difficult to attain.

[donjuan]

Many people or teachers tell their students to be relax! I hate when people that I am stiff, because I did not how to fix the problem and nobody could ever show me how. However, I finally met my last teacher. She was able to show me how to make my hands, arms relax. Actually, it is very easy to acquire this as long as somebody can show you. Physcal contact is required to show how to do this.

In the past, I thought it was virtually impossible for me to play Revolutionary Etudes at Arrau's speed, however, after gaining the ability to make my hands relax, his speed is actually not difficult to attain.

Perhaps you can tell us about this revolutionary relaxation technique since we dont have physical contact.. cmon, please!!
donjuan

[pianodude]

Many people or teachers tell their students to be relax! I hate when people that I am stiff, because I did not how to fix the problem and nobody could ever show me how. However, I finally met my last teacher. She was able to show me how to make my hands, wrist and arms relax. Actually, it is very easy to acquire this as long as somebody can show you. Physcal contact is required to show how to do this.

In the past, I thought it was virtually impossible for me to play Revolutionary Etudes at Arrau's speed, however, after gaining the ability to make my hands relax, his speed is actually not difficult to attain.

[pianodude]

Oops, I accidently reposted the same thing.

Not I do not want to share, I have to physically show to you how to do this.

[Maui]

For me its a question of the gravitational center where you put your hands/arms/shoulder weight.

When you depress a key you use a X force, when you want to hold it down, you use a Y force. Y is much smaller  than X, but its still a force, so if you relax everything the key will come up again. How to keep keys depressed without using force?
Use the gravity force!
For this you may adjust the gravitational center of the chord / key (usually keys alone are easier) in someway that when you relax all the fingers and just put the hands/arms/shoulders weight to hold the chord, no finger will come up. It will get harder when the chord range and number of notes increase.
When you found the right gravitational centre, just practice it until you have absorved completely, and everytime you do that chord/depress certain keys in some order you automatically get the right positions.

When you are playing fast chords that is very important, but then some other thing is still needed:

You need to have impulse points!

When doing some fast passages (chords or notes alone), you need to have impulse points where you acumulate the breath for the next notes, so has to be able to relax between two impulse points. That way you always have a rest and the hands still fast and relaxed.
Its kinda difficuld to write, and its harder because im still learning that impulse stuff to do some octaves scales on a study, but its working with me.

Try straight fingers too (not too straight, but natural).

:]

Maui.

[mound]

Perhaps take up the study of a martial art. There are some forms that are "lower impact" that don't have such high probability of harming your hands if that's a concern.

Somebody said above that it's more about physical relaxation than mental relaxation. I'd agree with this (this is just what I've learned about myself) - physically, it's purely about utilizing only the muscles necessary for the movment. Economy of motion. Martial Art study goes to this end to a great extent as well where the entire body is relaxed and a strike will eminate from just around the belly button area, but every muscle inline from there to say, the ball of your foot is completely relaxed, until the moment of impact when all the force is summoned to the ball of your foot, and only the ball of your foot, as it smashes its way through a stack of boards (or an opponents skull   and immediately after the blow is delivered, everything is relaxed again.  It's not obvious to folks that don't practice martial arts, but I have found so many parallels between music and martial arts as to be baffled by it myself at times.

Mentally, it's kinda two fold (I think) - you want to be relaxed in as much as you are not shaking from nerves, but you want your mind to be fully engulfed in the music you are producing, and if the music is violent and devastatingly emotional, then your mind should be inline with that. Same for a meloncholy prelude or whatever the piece may be. It's really hard, and as such I won't attempt, to explain in writing how to acheive mental and physical relaxation we're talking about here. Chang discusses the physical aspects at length in his book, though I do admit to only briefly reading those sections as it's not an area I have much difficulty with.
I am also no expert and not an advanced student, but my relaxation ability I think from martial arts is "advanced".  

The one thing I will try to describe is the idea of clearing your mind so that you can then focus all of your mental energy on the necessary components for relaxation, and to do so I'll once again relate it to a martial arts experience. I was recently taking a promotion test, and I had to stand up in front of a room full of judges and family and friends and perform a "Poomse" (which is a pattern of pre-defined motions that essentially are mimicking the fighting of multiple opponents. It's essentially a choreographed performance with the quality being in the details of execution, not at all unlike a piece of classical music.) So anyway, I got up there and my mind went blank. Suddenly I had no idea what I was even there to do, my palms started sweating and my heart started racing. (this is exactly the physical and mental experience I had the first time I sat down to play a piece of classical music solo in front of an audience, and to an extent, is exactly the thing I experience everytime I sit down to perform!) So anyway, the first motion of this Poomse, it isn't even a "motion" so much as whats called a "ready stance" and it involves focusing your eyes on a point and slowly beginning with your hands sorta cupped open and up down at your hips and slowly bringing them up and out until they form a spade sort of shape in front of your eyes. This whole motion is coordinated with your breating. As my breath was finally exhaled and my hands were in the spade shape, all of the sudden I was completely relaxed, completely unaware of people watching me and the form I had to perform was crystal clear in my mind. I passed the promotion test.

-Paul

[dam]

Thanks for all your contributions.

For this you may adjust the gravitational center of the chord / key (usually keys alone are easier) in someway that when you relax all the fingers and just put the hands/arms/shoulders weight to hold the chord, no finger will come up.

This idea is very interesting. It means that the pianist has to use the minimal force with a maximal efficiency.
But finding this form of balance (equilibrium) and a gravitational center which is perfectly positioned seems difficult because it depends above all of relaxation criterions. And relaxation varies according to a lot of things : session time, skills...

My first question which was about the indicators of relaxation could be now : "How do you find from moment to moment the gravitational center position ?"

Dam

[mosis]

Relaxation also has to do with how you use the tense muscles.

It has been stated many times before that the tension should not come from the fingers up, but from the shoulders down. The body provides all the strength for piano playing, and the fingers just aim. (I think that's a Bernhard quote). You will be much less tense if you are playing arpeggios from your arms and elbows than thinking about playing every single note with your fingers.