Learning my first full sonata

[davidjosepha]

I've never learned a full sonata before, only one movement. I've been working on the third movement of Prokofiev's 7th sonata for a few weeks and really love it. I've played through the second movement once and listened to the entire sonata several times, once while following along in the score. I absolutely love this sonata and was thinking I would make it my first full sonata.

Is there anything I need to know about learning a whole sonata versus just a single movement? Obviously, the length makes it daunting just because of the sheer number of notes, and having to play it all the way through without a break will be challenging. Are there any other concerns when learning an entire sonata versus just a single movement?

Thanks

[landru]

What a coincidence - I just had this conversation with my teacher two nights ago. Same situation - I've only played movements. In the last two months I've got the first two movements of Mozart's K332 down and was eyeing the last movement, just for completeness sake.

Our conversation boiled down to weighing the "achievement" aspect over the downside of spending the time on a long movement (9 pages) that is about a half level or so over my present technique - i.e the time might be better spent on a variety of pieces that will touch more technique. Still unresolved.

But as far as your questions, when I sightread the final movement of my sonata, I noticed some allusions to the other movements in the melodies and phrases - so you might want to investigate that in your sonata - I bet they are there but Prokofiev might have hidden them. As far as the other concerns you brought up - I'm in the same boat so I don't have any experience, but I can tell you with the two movements I've got down now that I love playing the slow movement after the fast allegro, and I'm sure the finale will feel the same way after the adagio!

[davidjosepha]

I noticed some allusions to the other movements in the melodies and phrases - so you might want to investigate that in your sonata - I bet they are there but Prokofiev might have hidden them.

I've actually noticed a couple that I think might be allusions when I've listened through all three movements. I plan to investigate more in the future.

I can tell you with the two movements I've got down now that I love playing the slow movement after the fast allegro, and I'm sure the finale will feel the same way after the adagio!

I was thinking about that and thought something like that might happen...I know when listening to the sonata, I absolutely love the ending of the 2nd movement going into the 3rd movement. Glad to hear your thoughts!

[scherzo123]

I've actually noticed a couple that I think might be allusions when I've listened through all three movements. I plan to investigate more in the future.

I was thinking about that and thought something like that might happen...I know when listening to the sonata, I absolutely love the ending of the 2nd movement going into the 3rd movement. Glad to hear your thoughts!

I've been planning to do this whole sonata too...I love all the movements, the first is so mysterious, the second is so beautiful, and the third is so lively!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I've never learned a full sonata before, only one movement. I've been working on the third movement of Prokofiev's 7th sonata for a few weeks and really love it. I've played through the second movement once and listened to the entire sonata several times, once while following along in the score. I absolutely love this sonata and was thinking I would make it my first full sonata.

Is there anything I need to know about learning a whole sonata versus just a single movement? Obviously, the length makes it daunting just because of the sheer number of notes, and having to play it all the way through without a break will be challenging. Are there any other concerns when learning an entire sonata versus just a single movement?

Thanks

If you can play through the whole thing without any interruptions, that's good.

Because usually someone's gonna call you on the phone.  Or someone is gonna ring your doorbell.  Or the dog pees on the floor.  Or an Earthquake will happen.  But SOMETHING happens and it will ALWAYS interrupt you! 

I've never played a whole sonata uninterrupted before. 

[davidjosepha]

Haha I understand that! What full sonata(s) have you learned?

[j_menz]

If you can play through the whole thing without any interruptions, that's good.

Because usually someone's gonna call you on the phone.  Or someone is gonna ring your doorbell.  Or the dog pees on the floor.  Or an Earthquake will happen.  But SOMETHING happens and it will ALWAYS interrupt you! 

I've never played a whole sonata uninterrupted before. 

You need to turn your phone off, lock the door and get a continent dog. 

There is a certain completeness to a whole sonata; it is after all a single piece, designed to be listened to (or played) as a whole and there are often resonances, contrasts or simply story flow that are only apparent with the whole work.  You wouldn't just do Acts 1-3 of Hamlet, for example, and expect to have the whole story.

[davidjosepha]

You need to turn your phone off, lock the door and get a continent dog. 

There is a certain completeness to a whole sonata; it is after all a single piece, designed to be listened to (or played) as a whole and there are often resonances, contrasts or simply story flow that are only apparent with the whole work.  You wouldn't just do Acts 1-3 of Hamlet, for example, and expect to have the whole story.

Ah, no wonder the damn thing didn't make any sense!

 

How much time is it customary to take between movements? Just a short breath, and then go on, or do you want time to let the last movement sink in and feel like it has ended completely before moving on to the next one? Or, more likely, does it depend on the specific sonata?

[rmbarbosa]

A sonata is one only piece with 3 (or more) mouvements each one of them with relationships with the others. Ex: the 3º mouvement of "moonlight" is like the first one but played very faster. So, personally I dont like to play one mouvement alone because it`s like to build a house without the floor or the ceiling...
On another side, if one wishes or wants to play in public, itsnt a good idea to play only one mouvement. We must play the entire sonata.
So, if you love one sonata, try to study it from the beggining to the end. It isnt a lost of time.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Or, more likely, does it depend on the specific sonata?

It depends on the sonata.  Because some sonatas have definitive endings which separate movements but some kinda flow into the movements.

Catch my drift?!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You need to turn your phone off, lock the door and get a continent dog. 

Well if I lock the door, that doesn't stop them from ringing the doorbell!

And you can't turn off a house phone.

[davidjosepha]

And you can't turn off a house phone.

You can unplug it

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You can unplug it

*reads signature*

You're learning Rach prelude Op. 32 No. 10?!?!?!

When you're done, you MUST post it!  And it's not a choice, you MUST do it!

[davidjosepha]

*reads signature*

You're learning Rach prelude Op. 32 No. 10?!?!?!

When you're done, you MUST post it!  And it's not a choice, you MUST do it!

Hahahahaha what why? I haven't been spending tons of time on it, I've just been reading through it a few times every day. I've been spending most of my time on 23/5 cause I have to play it in my first week of college to decide who I get for a piano teacher, so I want to make sure I do a good job...I've been slowly working it up from 85 bpm (which is what I could play every note perfectly at when I started working the speed up) and will hopefully get it to around 106-110 by the time I play it. As soon as that informal audition is over and I've gotten over the "I can drink any time I want" aspect of college, I'll get right back to working hard on 32/10

Edit: Also, I want your thoughts on this! You never responded

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=47554.msg516617#new

[j_menz]

It depends on the sonata.  Because some sonatas have definitive endings which separate movements but some kinda flow into the movements.

Catch my drift?!

Agreed. Also note that some Sonatas have the instruction "attaca" which is an instruction not to pause. 

Where there is a pause, there is no set time, but you probably shouldn't leave it so long the audience starts squirming.

[davidjosepha]

Agreed. Also note that some Sonatas have the instruction "attaca" which is an instruction not to pause. 

Where there is a pause, there is no set time, but you probably shouldn't leave it so long the audience starts squirming.

I've always been sorta worried that I'd end a movement but not be done with the piece and the audience would think it's over and start clapping and knowing how awkward I can be, I'd probably just pretend it was the end of the piece, get up, bow, and leave...

My other fear is the opposite. It'll be the end of the last movement and no one will know the sonata is over and i'll just be sitting there awkwardly

[j_menz]

I've always been sorta worried that I'd end a movement but not be done with the piece and the audience would think it's over and start clapping and knowing how awkward I can be, I'd probably just pretend it was the end of the piece, get up, bow, and leave...

My other fear is the opposite. It'll be the end of the last movement and no one will know the sonata is over and i'll just be sitting there awkwardly

Haha, I actually did something along those lines. Me playing a hymn in church, gets to "last" verse, big heavy finish (one of the rare chances I've had to play a real pipe organ)!! Congregation, still standing shuffles awkwardly. Minister: "Oh, well we'll leave it there, shall we?" Me: Turns page, notices two more verses. Ooops. 

[davidjosepha]

Haha, I actually did something along those lines. Me playing a hymn in church, gets to "last" verse, big heavy finish (one of the rare chances I've had to play a real pipe organ)!! Congregation, still standing shuffles awkwardly. Minister: "Oh, well we'll leave it there, shall we?" Me: Turns page, notices two more verses. Ooops. 

The awkward...it hurts 

[jollisg]

It depends on the sonata.  Because some sonatas have definitive endings which separate movements but some kinda flow into the movements.

Catch my drift?!

It would be fun to play just the 2nd movement of Beethoven Waldstein sonata... Everyone would be like "why did she stop in the middle of a piece?" 

[danhuyle]

Mozart k545, k332
Scriabin Sonata no2
Beethoven Op10 No2

[davidjosepha]

Mozart k545, k332
Scriabin Sonata no2
Beethoven Op10 No2

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...I'm not looking for suggestions, nor am I asking people what full sonatas they've played...so...?

[danhuyle]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...I'm not looking for suggestions, nor am I asking people what full sonatas they've played...so...?

They're whole sonatas I've played myself for end-of-year exams and yes I had to practice holding the whole thing together.

Your question was how to approach a whole sonata rather than single movements. You practice by going from start to finish. Keep doing this until it feels normal to play the whole sonata. Start with a sonata that you like and go from there.

When you make mistakes, keep going to the best of your ability. Each time you do, take note of where you made the mistakes.

[49410enrique]

generally when i go after an entire big work, if it is a standard 3 movement deal, i will usually split it into 'two large works' that is the most difficult or largest/lonest  movement (i.e. usually mvmnt i or iii), and then i group the remaining two together, i focus only on one, learn it, well. then i keep it rolling and fine polish while i tackle the remaining two.

[davidjosepha]

generally when i go after an entire big work, if it is a standard 3 movement deal, i will usually split it into 'two large works' that is the most difficult or largest/lonest  movement (i.e. usually mvmnt i or iii), and then i group the remaining two together, i focus only on one, learn it, well. then i keep it rolling and fine polish while i tackle the remaining two.

Ah, well that fits sorta into what I've been doing, although I'm not sure if the third movement is harder than the first, given the first's length. Thanks!

[49410enrique]

Ah, well that fits sorta into what I've been doing, although I'm not sure if the third movement is harder than the first, given the first's length. Thanks!

i recall reading one of the posters here on ps who played/performed the work described mvmnt i as the most problematic. my impression was iii by itself and i and ii together would work but this is only based on listening and reading along in score experience, the other guy actually played this bloody difficult piece so maybe ii and iii together is a good bet, secure those then go back and hit mvmnt i before putthem them all together.?