Chopin's Cantabile

[qpalqpal]

In this piece, in the second measure, I find it difficult to do the f chord after the f base, I keep hitting notes around it etc. I've had problems like this, and its very annoying. HELP!?

Here's the piece:

https://imslp.eu/linkhandler.php?path=/imglnks/euimg/6/6a/IMSLP64544-PMLP15875-Chopin_Paderewski_No_18_Minor_Works_Cantabile_filter.pdf

Its very nice. i fell in love with how simple and pretty it is, and how quick it is to finish. THIS is the minute waltz

[hmpiano]

Don't use the given fingering.  Use 1,2,5 on the first chord and 1,2,4 on the next.

[qpalqpal]

Thanks, boss.

[scherzo123]

The given fingering isn't bad, but hmpiano's fingering isn't bad either.

[outin]

qpalqpal, I've tried it now
The fingering of the first bar in my book (235, 123 then 35,13) was awkward first, but I think I'll stick with it because it provides a bit of a strech exercise for my fingers and forces me to play more relaxed.

[hmpiano]

qpalqpal, I've tried it now
The fingering of the first bar in my book (235, 123 then 35,13) was awkward first, but I think I'll stick with it because it provides a bit of a strech exercise for my fingers and forces me to play more relaxed.

No, stretching will not make you relaxed.  I find the given fingering quite peculiar.  Here in Nocture no. 2 that idea works because each chord after the bass has only two notes: javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/14/IMSLP61906-PMLP02312-Chopin-Op09n2rje.pdf    I'd say your example is damaging unless you've got big mitts.

[outin]

No, stretching will not make you relaxed.  I find the given fingering quite peculiar.  Here in Nocture no. 2 that idea works because each chord after the bass has only two notes: https://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/b/b5/IMSLP112335-PMLP02312-FChopin_Nocturnes__Op.9_Joseffy.pdf .  I'd say your example is damaging unless you've got big mitts.

Don't know...now that I have practiced the first bar for a while it feels comfortable. Sretching here meant opening my 2-3 and 3-5 more. What I meant by relaxing is to not curve my fingers so much, which I tend to do. I cannot open 3-5 or 2-3 enough if I curve my fingers too much. If I am ever going to play anything advanced I will need to strech, I have such narrow palms

But I'll know better Monday, my teacher will tell me immediately if I need to change the fingering.

[hmpiano]

You're right not to curve your fingers so much for Chopin.  Good luck!  I'd love to know if the pedaling is original - anyone live near Yale?

[outin]

You're right not to curve your fingers so much for Chopin.  Good luck!

Thanks!

BTW. I don't really worry too much about damaging my hands by streching the fingers, since I already have hypermobile joints. The only damage I can do is to overstrain the palm muscles or the tendons in the wrist. I have already experienced carpal tunnel symptoms once, don't want any of those. What I have noticed is that my wrists can handle any amount of twisting left, right or down, but I have to be careful when lifting them. Then again, my teacher won't let me do any twisting sideways. I think some of the tension I have came from consciously trying to avoid that, because for me it would be so natural. I could easily play the octaves with 1-3 by just a tiny wrist turn, but my teacher won't let me

[hmpiano]

Looking again, the given's alright if you've learnt a relaxed hand style, for others it would bring too much tension.  In bar 1 though I'd go 245, 124 and 35, 13.  Bar 2: 235, 123 and 245, 124.

[qpalqpal]

Well, here's the thing. Your alternate fingering is not too good because it requires you to move your hand, while the other one, the Paderewski fingering helps because you kind of twist, or pivot. I don't know

[outin]

So how is it going? The fingering on the second measure is also a bit tricky. I also figured out why, that it's probably the only way to do it without lifting the hand. But the only way to do the fingering in my book (almost same as yours) is to avoid any tension, so I think it's good to learn it this way. I have been practicing just the first phrase and it doesn't sound that bad actually.

[qpalqpal]

Indeed, it only takes getting used to, and I know that the editor is Paderewski, who was one of the greatest Chopin editors, he knows what he is doing. I won't get to the piano until probably Sunday or Monday sinc I'm off camping, but it's a very simple right hand diddy. If you look at mine, the fingering is perfect. It really works if you do it relaxed. In case you didn't know, on the b flat in the second measure, you hold it and switch fingers from 3 to 1, which is good practice. DONT put pedal till the end. Try without until you learn it all. This helps to get a clearer sound

Best
Esteban

[hmpiano]

Without the front page it's impossible to say whether they're Paderewski's fingerings.  My guess would be they're not.

[outin]

DONT put pedal till the end. Try without until you learn it all. This helps to get a clearer sound

I don't think so. Maybe it's my piano, but without the pedal it's impossible to play the left hand without tension, simply too stiff. I always use the pedal quite sparingly anyway, I hate it when the sound gets too muddy...

[hmpiano]

That's why I'd love to see the autograph at Yale.  It looks nothing like Chopin's pedal marks - he's usually more imaginative.

[qpalqpal]

It said that it was his edition because on imslp it said it.. So yeah

[outin]

In case you didn't know, on the b flat in the second measure, you hold it and switch fingers from 3 to 1, which is good practice.

I actually avoid any unnecessary finger changes on held notes these days and also don't do much finger switching on repeated notes. It's difficult enough to learn the fingerings without extra gimmicks... I do them when I feel I have to and here I see no reason to. My right hand fingering is a bit different anyway.

[qpalqpal]

For legato without pedal, that switching finger helps a lot to make it smooth. We'll see when we compare our pieces who's method worked 

[outin]

For legato without pedal, that switching finger helps a lot to make it smooth.

How so? I just don't see the point

[qpalqpal]

Well since we re beginners it makes sense that we don't us pedal so that it's clearest. Bu anyways that is a good method so that it doesn't sound blurred whil you play it. I find t also better to memoriZe

[hmpiano]

It said that it was his edition because on imslp it said it.. So yeah

That just means he's the editor.  It's not usual for the editor to also do the fingerings.

[lostinidlewonder]

Generally it is not good fingering to put a 1 or 5 on a black note if there is not another black in the lower (when using LH 1, RH5) or higher (when using LH 5, RH1) position.

The fingering in the edition provided seems to me quite ordinary and correct using the 2nd finger as a point connecting the two chords. If your hand is very small and the suggested 532 stretch is physically impossible then using the thumb is the only way but it makes the LH waltz pattern more difficult when you neglect the finger pivot point.

Flattening your fingers has solved the issue and Chopin does encourage a more natural hand form rather than relying on a curled one commonly found in the baroque keyboard style.
RH:EGbAbBbB  LH:FGbAbBbC is what Chopin considered the natural hand form.

[qpalqpal]

Can you tell me where you gotthat information of Chopin hand position? That is vEry useful information and I value his intellect a lot ! And yes I agree, especially since Chopin says it

[lostinidlewonder]

It was pointed out to me by Roger Woodward in a lesson.

[outin]

Well since we re beginners it makes sense that we don't us pedal so that it's clearest. Bu anyways that is a good method so that it doesn't sound blurred whil you play it. I find t also better to memoriZe

I meant I don't see the point of 1-3 switching here
It would be awkward for me anyway.

Generally I agree about the pedal, but not always. Some pieces just are too weird without the pedal, so practicing without it makes little sense (try the chords in Prelude nr 4). With my piano without the pedal this sounds horrible and trying not to will create a lot of tension. Same with the left hand of this cantabile. But of course these pieces are not for beginners anyway

For me it's actually good practice to try not to sound blurred when using the pedal. I tend to pedal too often because I don't like the sound of my piano when it gets too loud and blurred.

But I agree about memorising, that I need to do first, the pedalling takes away some of the concentration on notes.

[qpalqpal]

Okay, well there 

[outin]

Today I had to practice other things for my lesson tomorrow so I've only managed to learn the first 2 bars so far. Glad it's such a short piece, I might finish in in a month or so

[qpalqpal]

Yeah, it's great. I can't wait to get back to my piano

[outin]

Back from my lesson...hard as usual (she always finds something to correct in my hands/arms/posture) but not a complete disaster like last time

We decided that I need to change the fingering in the 2nd measure. It was too much of a strech. So I need to relearn that. But I will definitely keep this one. So I have 3 Chopin pieces now and 3 others.

The e-minor prelude that I have learned by myself she was quite ok with. Just need to re-learn the difficult part, have not played in for a year or so. Maybe we'll start another thread for that one

[outin]

Can you tell me where you gotthat information of Chopin hand position? That is vEry useful information and I value his intellect a lot ! And yes I agree, especially since Chopin says it

If you are really interested in learning more about Chopin's ideas, here's a book to read:
Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger:
Chopin: Pianist and Teacher, As Seen by his Pupils

[qpalqpal]

Thanks @outin! And I have myself another question for everyone. On measure four, what is the most logical fingering (if I follow the fingering for the first three chords) for the last two chords. Im stuck there because of the black keys in the way, etc. What do you guys think./

[outin]

And if you are into books, this one you can get as free e-book (either Guthenberg.org or Amazon Kindle):

Niecks, Frederick: Frederick Chopin, as a Man and Musician
It was first published around 1900 which makes it very charming to read, also the writer had actually spoken to people who had heard Chopin play.

[outin]

Had a bit of a morning practice and I am not satisfied with the fingering changes. I ended up changing everything because it was awkward to play the first measure with a complete different hand structure. It would go so well with the original if I could just get another 5 mm to my pinky (maybe an extension?). This piece is a nasty little thing!

[outin]

This morning I found a fingering and hand position that works for me:
135,123,35,13,125,123
Looks like I won't need the extensions after all.

Damn that I have to go to work instead of going on

[outin]

qpalqpal:

Time for me to reveal the results of the first week of practice (which amounts to probably about 1 hour on this piece). Only done the first 4 measures 

I still struggle with remembering the notes as you can hear. Sometimes it goes better but this morning it was really difficult. When I am unsure I tend to bang the keys 
So wasn't really able to do anything about balance and dynamics.
The fingering is now good, exept for the end of bar 4, which is awkward, I'll look at it with my teacher.

Hope it is going smoothly for you!