Making a living solely as a musician?

[charmsjr94]

Hello friends!

Is there anyone out there that makes their living as just a pianist/musician?

In my short 18 years, I've always heard that making a living as a musician is incredibly difficult to do. As I have decided to do the same with my life, I was wondering if anyone else is in the same situation.

Are you happy with your decision? Feel free to tell me off if I'm being inappropriate!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Is there anyone out there that makes their living as just a pianist/musician?

In my short 18 years, I've always heard that making a living as a musician is incredibly difficult to do. As I have decided to do the same with my life, I was wondering if anyone else is in the same situation.

My first lesson with my new piano teacher...  Wanna know what's the first thing he told me?

"give up your hopes and dreams as soon as possible"

But at the same time, he makes most of his living as a accompaniment pianist.



BUT...  You are going to one of the top 10 universities in the US.  So...  I don't know dude.

[m1469]

If by musician, you mean using my ears and musical judgement everyday, learning new skills, sharpening skills already learned, and working to reach a new artistic and musical potential everyday, then no, I don't regret that.  What I enjoy the least in life is feeling as though I am not growing, not learning, not progressing - and while I believe in learning and I aim to learn as much as I can in all of life, I feel that musicianship is one of the greatest avenues for growth and progress - so when I am not growing, and feeling stagnate as a musician, I don't tend to feel a sense of joy about my life.  I don't think anybody enjoys stagnation, regardless of their career path.  I think we have an innate desire to live our potential, to discover what that even is, what it feels like, what it looks like, how it works.  I don't know that we actually choose that, exactly, even if we are fully equipped with the desires which lead us in that path.

Years ago, I used to ask pretty much this same question to adults that I worked with at the grocery store, the YMCA, etc..  It was always very helpful to listen to what they had to say, not because it changed who I was, but because it helped me to better understand what to look for.  There are going to be people who are very good examples to you of what you might consider as reasons to go one way or another, and that will be true in any profession or walk in life.

[hfmadopter]

It kind of boils down to this. If it's your calling in life you can try to run with it. Keep in mind most run of the mill musicians I've encountered in everyday life ( not while performing) live a modest life and may teach on the side. Their shoes don't shine sort to speak, they may or may not own a car but if they do it's an older model, maybe well kept but with faded paint. The amount of effort it takes to become a really good musician if applied elsewhere could lead to say, become a surgeon, lawyer, advertising agent for a big firm etc, will reap more financial reward and more towards the shiny shoes and new cars.

If you become famous that may be another matter. But half the time to become famous they already have a ton of dough behind them anyway. Good promoting gets them there because they can pay good promoters what they charge.

Music can be something rich in your life and kept as a hobby or a passion vs hacking out a living. Making a good living in other ways can lead to a nice house with a music room and nice high quality grand piano in it, for instance. Course on the other hand you may have no time to yourself to be in that room ! So choose carefully/wisely.

[corecase]

It kind of boils down to this. If it's your calling in life you can try to run with it. Keep in mind most run of the mill musicians I've encountered in everyday life ( not while performing) live a modest life and may teach on the side. Their shoes don't shine sort to speak, they may or may not own a car but if they do it's an older model, maybe well kept but with faded paint. The amount of effort it takes to become a really good musician if applied elsewhere could lead to say, become a surgeon, lawyer, advertising agent for a big firm etc, will reap more financial reward and more towards the shiny shoes and new cars.

If you become famous that may be another matter. But half the time to become famous they already have a ton of dough behind them anyway. Good promoting gets them there because they can pay good promoters what they charge.

Music can be something rich in your life and kept as a hobby or a passion vs hacking out a living. Making a good living in other ways can lead to a nice house with a music room and nice high quality grand piano in it, for instance. Couse on the other hand you may have no time to yourself to be in that room ! So choose carefully/wisely.

I second this.

[avguste]

Without being arrogant, I am one of those that makes a living with music:

-concert pianist, performing around the country
-piano teacher
-pianist for a church
-music consultant

To be successful in this business (music), you have to believe in yourself. Doesn't matter what degrees you have or don't have. To be a performer you need the experience, the name recognition and you need to reach to presenters. but most importantly, believe in yourself

[tds]

why solely as a musician? don't you wanna teach also? imparting knowledge and skills to younger generation. noble.

[david456103]

you have to be VERY good if you want to make a living as a musician. I would even say the music field is more competitive than the medical, engineering, business, etc. fields because an infinitesimal percentage of adept musicians go on to be successful pianists. On the other hand, if you have the capability to win a big competition(for example, the chopin one) then by all means go for your dream as a pianist.

[avguste]

Winning a competition doesn't guarantee anything.
Have no idea why so many people think that winning a competition will make them big.
Competitions don't make or break a musician.

[jesc]

It kind of boils down to this. If it's your calling in life you can try to run with it. Keep in mind most run of the mill musicians I've encountered in everyday life ( not while performing) live a modest life and may teach on the side. Their shoes don't shine sort to speak, they may or may not own a car but if they do it's an older model, maybe well kept but with faded paint. The amount of effort it takes to become a really good musician if applied elsewhere could lead to say, become a surgeon, lawyer, advertising agent for a big firm etc, will reap more financial reward and more towards the shiny shoes and new cars.

....

Music can be something rich in your life and kept as a hobby or a passion vs hacking out a living. Making a good living in other ways can lead to a nice house with a music room and nice high quality grand piano in it, for instance. Course on the other hand you may have no time to yourself to be in that room ! So choose carefully/wisely.

OP, you're quite lucky to receive the above reply. Some people realize the statements above late in their life (or career). You have the opportunity to ponder them early on.

[mingusmonk]

I encountered this crossroads in college - to pursue music or to go to medical school.  I ultimately decided that the romantic life of a poor artist starving while fighting off the throes of tuberculosis wasn't as pragmatically romantic as it sounded and chose medicine.  I continued my piano seriously through college and even through medical school however (I actually took undergraduate classes and studied piano with the head of the music department) and even won a couple local but important piano competitions while in medical school.  After medical school, while in internship and residency then as a young doctor now with a young family keeping up with my practice became more and more impractical.  At first, I tried playing when I could but soon became frustrated because, for better or worse, I am a perfectionist, and playing poorly was far more frustrating than rewarding.  I went about 20 years without playing at all.  A little over a year ago, I started playing again and now I am studying with an outstanding teacher in Los Angeles.  My fingers are slowly coming back but I am having to relearn all the repertoire which is time consuming and frustrating.

Would I do it over again?  I don't know.  I don't think I would go into medicine (and certainly not primary care) because it is not the profession that it could and should be.  Certainly, it is neither intellectually nor artistically stimulating.  What I really wish however (not that the wish is worth anything) is that I had continued to play - even an hour a day - during those 20 years so that now, at this point in my life where playing has become a passion again, I would have a "head start."

In any case, it is my hope to begin performing again and maybe even competing (yes, I have a competitive drive!) in the near future.

FWIW

Eriic.

[richard black]

I make a living as a piano player. I don't teach, though I do 'coach' singers (accompany them and help them learn a new piece - I put the quotes in because coaching means something different to almost everyone who uses the word).

In London, there are lots of us doing what I do - lots of behind-the-scenes accompanying and the occasional performance. It's a pleasant life, I find.

Making a living as a solo performer: that's another thing entirely. My estimate is that the world market is about 4 or 5 new players a year.

[asuhayda]

Making a good living in other ways can lead to a nice house with a music room and nice high quality grand piano in it, for instance.

This is a great option.  This is the path I have chosen.  I still have ample time at the piano and I teach students on Tuesday and Thursday nights.  I get to play on a beautiful instrument every night and I get to share music with others.  It gives me something to look forward to.  And it has helped me improve as a musician/teacher/person. No regrets!

[Bob]

If you include teaching, then lots.

If you mean just from performing, not many.  If you want to live off very little money, maybe it's possible.  Or if you're genius, then you've got a much better chance.

[pianopianisimo]

Without being arrogant, I am one of those that makes a living with music:

-concert pianist, performing around the country
-piano teacher
-pianist for a church
-music consultant

To be successful in this business (music), you have to believe in yourself. Doesn't matter what degrees you have or don't have. To be a performer you need the experience, the name recognition and you need to reach to presenters. but most importantly, believe in yourself

I would like to know how many hours you practise the piano! thank you!

[charmsjr94]

Wow! I missed all these posts somehow!
What great advice from everyone; it really does make a difference.

If anyone wants an update:

I am a freshman in college at the University of Illinois majoring in Music Ed and Music Performance (Piano). I've decided to go into the field of music and end up hopefully teaching a nice high school in the Chicagoland area. My band director makes a very comfortable living with all the time he puts in. The piano staff here is incredibly qualified (We have Ian Hobson here if anyone has heard of him) and the rest of the professors have their Doctors from big universities plus additional studies. My own professor is very young (possibly still in her 20's) but she has her Doctors in performance and is actually a really good teacher. She pushes me very hard each week. Last week she had me learn Chopin's whole Nocturne Op 27 No 1 on top of memorizing all my other pieces, yikes! I'm practicing 4-6 hours a day and I'm hoping to bump that up to a consistent 6 soon. Basically living the life right now!

Thanks again!

[Bob]

Except for the performing and making part....

So you're asking if you can make a living as a music teacher?  Yes, of course.  (If you make it... and if you survive....)  Don't plan on 4-6 hours of practice as a band director though, esp high school.  Geez. You'll be living at work, married to the job.  And there can be a difference in pay between those who are close to retirement and those who are just starting out.  Assuming you actually get band directing job, let alone high school.  Everyone is looking at the nice comfortable band directing jobs.  Good luck....

[craig_davis]

I don't want to be redundant but one of my composition teachers gave me a great piece of advice: "If you are worried about have a good Career, you probably won't have a good career, but if you are focusing on making great art, a good career will fall into place."

Food for thought?

www.CraigMichaelDavis.com

[Bob]

A nice thought.  And possibly what someone working as a musician (without teaching) would be living off.

[avguste]

I would like to know how many hours you practise the piano! thank you!

Sorry about the lack of reply, but just got back from tour. Since September, I have been home like 5 days at a time, at most.

To answer your question, generally, I practice about 3-4 hours a day, Monday-Friday. Weekends are generally rest days. But that can also change based on my traveling and performing dates.

[robert_henry]

PART 1  ///

Avguste has it right.

He has a variety of positions/activities within music. I do, too. Most musicians I know do a variety of things within music to piece together a good income.

It is rare to get one great job and have that single position supply all the desired/needed income. You've heard the phrase "multiple sources of income," and it's absolutely true. It's totally what you should be thinking about.

Similar to Avguste, I perform, accompany, conduct, record, publish, teach privately, teach as Artist in Residence at Kennesaw University in GA, and I'm also organist/choirmaster at an Episcopal church. Through these activities, I make as much as my wife, who is a pharmacist. I actually work fewer hours. And 100% of my income is from music. It's a great feeling.

So, I encourage musicians to get rid of the "starving artist" mentality. It's a myth. Expect yourself to do well, work hard to become accomplished, and then market oneself well. The better you are, the more you can charge per hour. Relationships with colleagues are important, too.

PART 2  ///

It's not just about how much money you earn; it's about what you do with your money AFTER you've earned it.

Also, every person in this country (US) can retire wealthy. Every semester, I give my students a crash course on doing taxes, making sure they get every deduction they can legally get, and most importantly, investing.

If you're 20, and you open a ROTH account and invest $125 a month in a simple index fund until you retire at 70, you will have a million in the bank. If you're married and put away $250, you'll have 2 million. That's even at a crappy 8% interest rate. If you live alone and invest the maximum per year in a ROTH, which is $414 per month or $5,000 per year, you would have nearly 3.5 million.

See for yourself. Try out some numbers:

https://www.daveramsey.com/article/investing-calculator/lifeandmoney_investing/#/entry_form

Boy, I wish someone had told me all this earlier. If you're young, take advantage of what I'm telling you.

If the monthly numbers seem too much to handle at your age, then try put $20 in a month and increase your monthly contributions every year by $10. $20 per month the first year, $30 per month the next year, $40 the next, and so on.

Heck, start with $5. If you invested that $5 instead of buying that popcorn, the $5 would be worth $269 in 50 years. $20 is worth over $1,000. Think what $100 per month would do in 50 years! Or $200! I think about that every time I buy something.

The earlier you start the better!

Best,

Robert Henry

[Bob]

Hey, hey.  Welcome back RH.  I've heard of you on here.  I thought you'd left for good.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is like running your own business, yes you need a good product but you have to more importantly know how to sell it. If you can sell ice cubes to Eskimos then you can be a successful musician easily, if you also have something to give people that they didn't know they needed you also will be a success.

 Since most great musicians are not business minded most fail, rare to meet a musician who is also a great businessman/businesswoman but it is not a skill you can't learn. Im a freelance pianist/teacher, my shoes shine, I own two cars which are not old, I own a house, I own three quality grand pianos etc. I like to believe the product I have is better than everyone else, its why I make more than most musicians and can sell out concert halls at my will, but I'm a businessman first and foremost, that is what controls my level of success and opportunities, the music is the easy part, at least for me.

We need to think outside of the box as to what makes money for a musician, once you hit on niches which are little travelled or done quite badly, then you can become very rich. If you are stuck in what ways you make money then you will be begging for breadcrumbs and bills to be paid.

[nikolasideris]

Hey,

Perhaps I can chime in here with some different perspective...

I make all my living through music! 100%

But, like Avguste and a few others in here I do various things related to music, though probably more diverse: In order of how much money's coming in I:

* Compose for computer games
* Teach
* Publish contemporary classical music
* Compose classical music
* Play the piano in piano bars etc

So, from my perspective I have every angle covered. There's NO church musician in Greece, because it's all orthodox and the orthodox church doesn't use a piano, or an organ, btw... But at the same time I enjoy the popularity (yeah right...) of composing a more commercial kind of music (for computer games), and activate my personal needs by composing classical music. Yes, I'm a composer. I play the piano so my ego still stands strong and the immediate feedback from the audience is wonderful, and I publish works which makes me happy and very appealing to my peers!

None of the above would be able to provide a solid income, especially in this time of need and crisis in Greece! Still with all of the above not only I have enough of an income, but in addition I have several backup plans in case on of the above fails. And a major backup plan which says that if Greece goes to utter *ahem* I can always gather my stuff and keep working wherever in the world. Not easy, but most of the stuff I mentioned above are readily available even in the most remote village of the world. (not teaching obviously).

_______________________

For all the above and in comparison with other musician friends I have realised that:

a. In my life (35 now) I've always tended to do career expansion moves. I never took the safe path, never settled down.
b. At the same time I had the complete backing up of my parents, my parents in law and my wife and kids. I wouldn't be able to keep doing what I do without their help.
c. I have also realised that a vital part in making anything happen in any freelance job pretty much that includes and image (so no plumbers anyhow), is that one needs to care very much for that image. It takes luck, it takes a wonderful personality, it takes patience, it takes everything. Talent is one of the last thing that's needed. Not that it's not necessary, but it sometimes hide away the crucial parts of ones character that may make him/her succeed or fail.

Everything else has been mentioned by either Avguste, or RH or lostindlewonder.

[charmsjr94]

A lot of these recent posts are making me very happy! First of all, it's great to hear of such success from you guys. Second of all, I know that I can easily mess up and end a pauper but if I approach this career the right way, I can live very comfortably. I don't like tooting my own horn, but I've always had a way with talking to people, which is a good trait to have.

And most of all, I will hopefully be able to prove to my parents, who don't have a musical bone in their bodies, that this major isn't a waste of time or money! I can support myself and hopefully a family at some point. I really am hoping that the importance of the arts becomes universally understood soon.

AND you know what? If I fail miserably and end up in debt and living with my parents for several more years while I approach another degree, at least I can say that I took advantage of being able to go after what I love. Not everyone can say that. If I lived in a third world country, what kind of career could I make in music? A lot of people in the U.S. and other first world countries are given very special chances to live off of what they love most and I'm going to attempt it one way or another.

[shazeelawan]

Hey,

Perhaps I can chime in here with some different perspective...

I make all my living through music! 100%

But, like Avguste and a few others in here I do various things related to music, though probably more diverse: In order of how much money's coming in I:

* Compose for computer games


Cool! Composing for stuff like that..and others like movie,show and videogame soundtracks....I love playing video game soundtracks! They have awesome composers!

https://www.leonwillett.com/leonwillett.com/Blog/Entries/2009/5/9_How_to_Get_Your_First_Job_Composing_for_Video_Games.html

random link about video game composing

[m1469]

I think that one of the most important things to come to grips with mentally and emotionally, is the difference between making a living as a musician vs. making a living straight up with one's ideals.  They can certainly coincide but are almost always -and seemingly by nature- not quite the same thing.  Almost always, it seems, one's own, personal musical ideals live in their own realm, while in reality there is a daily grind that doesn't always feel or look as though it's reflecting one's ideals.  This can be for long periods of time, too, and sometimes with no hope of changing; sometimes that's extremely difficult and for reasons you can't possibly understand until you're there.  

You may find that you have to create new thought-structures based strictly in reality and of simply making the most out of whatever situation you find yourself within, and these very well may not lead to what you feel are your own ultimate desires.  Sometimes you will simply be forced into accepting that and knowingly swallowing it down while taking another step in that direction.  You may need to find a way to take joy in very simple things, which in theory seems like a good idea but often comes as a result of situations and circumstances that are extremely unpleasant, uncomfortable, scary, dark, and tiresome.  This will change you in ways you won't always appreciate and sometimes with almost no silver lining in sight.  Sometimes your personal ideals will feel so far away and out of reach that they seem to be setting -completely out of your control- behind an entire galaxy that you are simply not part of.

[Bob]

Has anyone here mentioned making a living solely off performing.

Even the pros here are still having to earn part of their income by teaching.  I've heard that's usually the case. 

So it's yes, you can earn a living if you do a lot of music-related work, including teaching.
And no, or a lot less likel,y if you earn money solely by performing.

[m1469]

Well, I don't even acknowledge that some people think that teaching isn't included in being a musician.  Yes, to teach you must be more than a musician, but you also must be a musician!!  Even teaching can be very difficult financially.

[dcstudio]

yes, for 15 years--yes it is incredibly difficult...  I tried to have a real job--my husband and I were dealers on a cruise ship -- (that's as real as it gets for me lol)  anyway--one day management changed and we were both fired without any notice...  well...

the next day I got a phonecall saying we had won 5K in music equipment--the day after that a friend of ours came over telling us that his buddy opened a restaurant and wanted a house band 4 nights a week....the rest is history.

yes it is difficult to make a living as a musician--but it's worse for some to try and make a living as anything else.   If you are meant to do it--you will be a musician.   

[thesixthsensemusic]

I have never been a professional pianist, but I did work full time as a musician, namely as a deejay and electronic music (trance and hard trance) producer, composer, and studio technician, for 4 years. It took me to all the corners of the world, from Ibiza to El Salvador, and from Italy to Japan.

Even though I had a lot of fun during that time it's a decision I truly regret ever having made. You never know what the future brings you and how the world and your life look like in 3-4 years time. And no matter how succesful you are at one point, things can take a turn for the worse very rapidly, and in the end leading a stable life, having a secure income, and the time to practice your music as a (time consuming) hobby, is to be preferred.

Also keep in mind that unless you are the best of the best (like Sviatoslav Richter, Wilhelm Kempff or Andre Previn) you'll always be doing stuff that you might enjoy but that's not the stuff you dreamt of doing. You might end up being an accompaniment pianist for a ballet company or playing the same 3-hour set of Viennese waltz music in a restaurant for months... having a regular job and playing the piano as a serious hobby on the side is, at least IMHO, to be preferred over that. But that's entirely up to you, if you are very self-critical and think you might have it in you to reach the top or anywhere near it, and be a succesful soloist, go for it! But always make sure you have a plan B, a good university diploma is the best plan B there is.

[ajspiano]

I think that teaching is a fair bit more marketable and in demand than performing is.. 

..but as lostinidlewonder points out, whatever you are doing (teaching/performing/accompanying etc) the reality is that your running a business and music is your product. You have to get good at selling your product more so than you need a good product - though a good product is obviously favourable.

People who have business skills can succeed with almost any product in any industry, that's the critical part. Adjust and develop the product to meet the needs of the target consumer, advertise to the target consumer. Deliver. $$.

...

Also -

a good university diploma is the best plan B there is.

Couldnt agree less. Nothing against uni's, but they in no way represent a "best" backup option anymore, at least not where I live. In fact, I don't feel that any conventional job is a great option in Australia right now for a school leaver. Its like asking to break your back for a minimal return, a return that is barely enough to get by in anything other than the most minimal living situation..   

..atleast as far as being able to do things like own a home and such, which are supposedly things that all australians should be able to achieve.

[thesixthsensemusic]

Also -Couldnt agree less. Nothing against uni's, but they in no way represent a "best" backup option anymore, at least not where I live. In fact, I don't feel that any conventional job is a great option in Australia right now for a school leaver. Its like asking to break your back for a minimal return, a return that is barely enough to get by in anything other than the most minimal living situation..   

..atleast as far as being able to do things like own a home and such, which are supposedly things that all australians should be able to achieve.

Well, I actually have family living in Perth, and as far as I heard it does make sense what you're saying, the Australians apparently pay crazy money for jobs like in mining and construction but the outlook for, let's say, a scientist or an economist, is less bright... but that might be something very specific to Australia as it's a healthy economy with a large primary sector, less affected by the global economic slump than the EU or the USA? Just an idea

It's the opposite here in Europe, and AFIK in the USA more or less the same, with the economy on its arse and both building and industry struggling, your best career option here would be either an engineering diploma or a university degree in medicine, physics, mathematics or another field of science.

[ajspiano]

Well, I actually have family living in Perth, and as far as I heard it does make sense what you're saying, the Australians apparently pay crazy money for jobs like in mining and construction but the outlook for, let's say, a scientist or an economist, is less bright... but that might be something very specific to Australia as it's a healthy economy with a large primary sector, less affected by the global economic slump than the EU or the USA? Just an idea

It's the opposite here in Europe, and AFIK in the USA more or less the same, with the economy on its arse and both building and industry struggling, your best career option here would be either an engineering diploma or a university degree in medicine, physics, mathematics or another field of science.

It depends what your willing to do really (like anything)..

There have been mining based jobs in western australia with salaries as high as $120,000 per annum, for a dishwasher.  ..ofcourse the salaries are like that because the jobs are undesireable. Those mines are a rough 3500km from where I live. If you live there, the house pricing/rent is very high, and you're in a remote mining town..  alternatively its fly in, work 2 weeks straight.. fly home for a week, rinse repeat.

Also, the only qualification you actually need to work there is a manual drivers licence..  quite a few of my friends went there straight out of highschool, but its not a long term thing. It's not ideal for if you want to spend time close to your family at all.

Regular jobs here where I live are a crappy option in a lot of circumstances..  about the best option as far as pay I personally have at entry level is KFC..  and there was a situation not that long back where the university graduates where choosing fast-food management positions over the things they are qualified for because the pay was better, or there were not enough relevant positions available...  there's more options and better pay in trades - building/plumbing/electricians..   comparitively to say, nursing, which requires a qualification and may lead you to get paid less per hour that a barman.

As a piano teacher I earn 4-5 times the hourly rate that I got at my last regular job.. but of course that entails all sort of non-paid hours and other costs as well.

I think our average full time wage is about $40,000..  owning/maintaining a home would cost about $30,000 per year, for a low cost house/land package where I am..  $10,000 is a tight fit to cover car/food, and if you're trying to provide for a family on that you're screwed.

..not that I mean to complain. Its hardly a life of poverty here just because owning a home is a little harder than it used to be. Really its a pretty comfortable standard of living for most I suspect.. only many of us seem to have an expectation that life's luxuries should come on a platter.