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Remove Horowitz from your vocabulary! (Read 5828 times)

Offline cziffra

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Remove Horowitz from your vocabulary!
« on: October 09, 2004, 07:38:12 PM »
Are you sick and tired of being utterly dependant on refering constantly to an uninteresting, nervous reck of pianist in order to feel at home in a musical community?  

WELL, REFER NO MORE!

Now you can cast off your dependancy and infernal idolatry with the new, revolutionary "THERE ARE OTHER PIANISTS AROUND 2000!"

This isn't just a device, it's a philosophy!

Sue Normal started using it late last year.
"It was INDREDIBLE!  I found that, if i went into a record store, there were actuall cd's of...you know, OTHER pianists!  I've never seen anything like it!  And you know what else, they actually play the piano with some sort of musical tone!"

You can do it to- it's not easy, but it's worth it, because once you break out of restrictive, outdated and dogmatic predispositions towards big name hyperstars, you'll actually HAVE THE ABILITY to realise that when real musicians play the piano, they make MUSIC, not a vain sound wall of egocentric masturbation parading in the form of an honest attempt at musical servitude.  

You will learn, with the aid of this new and astonishing device, that the longer you keep Horowitz in your vocabulary, the less relevant you will become to your state of existence at the moment.  Be free from premature death and conquer the world of your own potentially but as yet severely crippled musical receptivity today!
What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould

Offline thracozaag

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #1 on: October 09, 2004, 07:52:18 PM »
Quote
Are you sick and tired of being utterly dependant on refering constantly to an uninteresting, nervous reck of pianist in order to feel at home in a musical community?  

WELL, REFER NO MORE!

Now you can cast off your dependancy and infernal idolatry with the new, revolutionary "THERE ARE OTHER PIANISTS AROUND 2000!"

This isn't just a device, it's a philosophy!

Sue Normal started using it late last year.
"It was INDREDIBLE!  I found that, if i went into a record store, there were actuall cd's of...you know, OTHER pianists!  I've never seen anything like it!  And you know what else, they actually play the piano with some sort of musical tone!"

You can do it to- it's not easy, but it's worth it, because once you break out of restrictive, outdated and dogmatic predispositions towards big name hyperstars, you'll actually HAVE THE ABILITY to realise that when real musicians play the piano, they make MUSIC, not a vain sound wall of egocentric masturbation parading in the form of an honest attempt at musical servitude.  

You will learn, with the aid of this new and astonishing device, that the longer you keep Horowitz in your vocabulary, the less relevant you will become to your state of existence at the moment.  Be free from premature death and conquer the world of your own potentially but as yet severely crippled musical receptivity today!


 I think you may need to up your ritalin dosage.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline cziffra

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #2 on: October 09, 2004, 07:57:20 PM »
That's what i said, but he wouldn't listen.

You will join the army


                                               Shut up!                                 Shut up!


What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould

Offline Mayla

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #3 on: October 09, 2004, 08:16:23 PM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Motrax

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #4 on: October 09, 2004, 08:24:57 PM »
Alright, this is enough. We need moderators, and we need them now. Please go to the PF Website section and complain so that Nils finally appoints a few mods. Random spam like this is annoying, but it would be much easier on everyone if we had a few mods to clean up this sort of mess.
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #5 on: October 09, 2004, 08:28:24 PM »
I don´t know much of alive pianists. Is there anyone with the Richter way of playing? Always with exact tempo, expression and full tone? To me Argerich=Richter. But is there any other alive? No those tiny little flying fingers without touching the keybed.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline mosis

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #6 on: October 09, 2004, 09:12:26 PM »
Horowitz sucks.

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #7 on: October 09, 2004, 09:41:51 PM »
Quote
Alright, this is enough. We need moderators, and we need them now. Please go to the PF Website section and complain so that Nils finally appoints a few mods. Random spam like this is annoying, but it would be much easier on everyone if we had a few mods to clean up this sort of mess.


I don´t think its random spam, in fact it´s quite commendable!  ;D
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

JK

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #8 on: October 09, 2004, 11:41:10 PM »
Quote
Horowitz sucks.


Is there actually something wrong with you?? Horowitz may not appeal to everyones taste but he is undeniably one of the greatest and most influencial pianists to have ever lived, there is a reason why he is still so popular. To dismiss a great pianist in this way without even giving reasons just shows up how immature and incredibly ignorant you are.

Quote
Are you sick and tired of being utterly dependant on refering constantly to an uninteresting, nervous reck of pianist in order to feel at home in a musical community?  

WELL, REFER NO MORE!  

Now you can cast off your dependancy and infernal idolatry with the new, revolutionary "THERE ARE OTHER PIANISTS AROUND 2000!"

This isn't just a device, it's a philosophy!

Sue Normal started using it late last year.
"It was INDREDIBLE!  I found that, if i went into a record store, there were actuall cd's of...you know, OTHER pianists!  I've never seen anything like it!  And you know what else, they actually play the piano with some sort of musical tone!"

You can do it to- it's not easy, but it's worth it, because once you break out of restrictive, outdated and dogmatic predispositions towards big name hyperstars, you'll actually HAVE THE ABILITY to realise that when real musicians play the piano, they make MUSIC, not a vain sound wall of egocentric masturbation parading in the form of an honest attempt at musical servitude.  

You will learn, with the aid of this new and astonishing device, that the longer you keep Horowitz in your vocabulary, the less relevant you will become to your state of existence at the moment.  Be free from premature death and conquer the world of your own potentially but as yet severely crippled musical receptivity today!


Are you actually serious, or just having a f**king laugh?? I don't know whether you have just posted this to get a rise out of people, if so it's pathetic and if not it's equally pathetic. Horowitz was famous and is still famous for a reason because he was a great musician and an influential one at that. Noone on this forum will ever come close to the level of musicality and understanding that he had, sure you may not be his biggest fan but at least have the decency to acknowledge that he was a great pianist. Of course there are many other pianists around but in the past there was a way of playing in which interpretation took presidence over technical ability and where the tradition of concerts was different from today, because of this many of the past pianists had very induvidual ways of doing things which are very interesting and revealing to listen to today. Sure there are many other good pianists around today but traditions have changed and none of them play in the same way as the Horowitzs and Richters, they play perfectly well but in a way that is more familiar to us.

In the future please post this crap somewhere else.

Offline Peachy_Keen

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #9 on: October 10, 2004, 12:17:24 AM »
Whatever point the author of this thread had was lost in the throes of obnoxiousness.
Member of the Bernhard fan club.

Rob47

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #10 on: October 10, 2004, 02:39:57 AM »
Quote
Horowitz sucks.


Horowitz is the greatest pianist of all time.

your friend
Rob

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #11 on: October 10, 2004, 03:36:27 AM »
Quote
Sure there are many other good pianists around today but traditions have changed and none of them play in the same way as the Horowitzs and Richters, they play perfectly well but in a way that is more familiar to us.

In the future please post this crap somewhere else.


I don´t think Horowitz and Richter were in the same level.
Horowitz since his youth was trying to impress people by doing inacceptable and exagerated performances. In the same way Lang lang does, but even worst. When fame was in his hands he began playing with a little more respect to the composer, but then he was not much extraordinary (to this point he had all the support of STEINWAY).

Richter was a true pianist and musician.  I don´t even dare to say a word about him.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline thracozaag

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #12 on: October 10, 2004, 03:46:06 AM »
Quote


I don´t think Horowitz and Richter were in the same level.
Horowitz since his youth was trying to impress people by doing inacceptable and exagerated performances. In the same way Lang lang does, but even worst. When fame was in his hands he began playing with a little more respect to the composer, but then he was not much extraordinary (to this point he had all the support of STEINWAY).

Richter was a true pianist and musician.  I don´t even dare to say a word about him.


 Forgive me for being blunt, but that's absolute rubbish.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Spatula

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #13 on: October 10, 2004, 04:01:13 AM »
WHAT THE F|_|CK IS WRONG IN THIS ROOM?

I JUST SPENT THE LAST 10 QUALITY MINUTES TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING OTHER COMPOSERS SUCH AS PROKOFIEV AND SORABJI AND NOW THIS SH1T ERUPTS ABOUT HOROWITZ?

GOOD GOD SOME ONE REALLY NEEDS TO CLEAN UP THIS MESS!

YES HOROWITZ IS GOOD, BUT HOW ABOUT KEEPING AN OPEN MIND FOR NEW ARTISTS?! FOR PETE SAKE!

GOD YOU BETTER NOT SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT KISSIN CAUSE I’LL HAUL YOUR SORRY ASS TO MOSCOW AND MAKE YOU DO YOUR OWN LEGENDARY 2004 CHOPIN CONCERTO 1 & 2 AND SEE IF YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH THE SAME AS HE DID 20 YEARS AGO.

THINK ABOUT IT! YOU PEOPLE ARE JUST ABOUT AS LOW PROFILE OR EVEN LOWER THAN A SOMEBODY-PIANIST WHO JUST RELEASED THEIR FIRST RECORDING!  

RELEASE YOUR OWN FIRST RECORDING AND THEN SEE WHAT PEOPLE SAY!  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


Offline one_wing3d_ang3l

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #14 on: October 10, 2004, 04:21:07 AM »
big man :)

Offline one_wing3d_ang3l

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #15 on: October 10, 2004, 04:23:47 AM »
and about horowotZ I DUN LIKE HIS RECORDING OF CHOPINS BALLDE IN G MINOR. ITS PRETTY SLOPPY. LISTEN TO TZI EREZ RECORDING IT OWNZ HIS ONE.

Offline donjuan

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #16 on: October 10, 2004, 04:28:35 AM »
I think all this Horowitz bashing is going to send me into another depression.. :'(

He was the last great romantic- please respect him or Im gonna cry
donjuan


Offline Philip Daniel

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #17 on: October 10, 2004, 04:32:16 AM »
OT (off-topic)
Quote
Alright, this is enough. We need moderators, and we need them now. Please go to the PF Website section and complain so that Nils finally appoints a few mods. Random spam like this is annoying, but it would be much easier on everyone if we had a few mods to clean up this sort of mess.

I know this belongs in a pm to the webmaster, but could I please be a moderator? I have experience, and furthermore am very responsible. I'm one of the moderators of the ChopinMusic Forum: www.chopinmusic.net/forum. I helped to ban Comme there, BTW ;).

Offline one_wing3d_ang3l

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #18 on: October 10, 2004, 04:34:50 AM »
lol i roled him yesturday for 2 bucks lol sori donjuan :(
howoroitzis a legend. this is how he aquired his techinuqe:
"play as many good compositions from as many good composers"
he also said that mechanical exercises r dangerious because it wrecks ur tone etc tec

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #19 on: October 10, 2004, 05:17:21 AM »
Quote


 Forgive me for being blunt, but that's absolute rubbish.

koji (STSD)


Ok, if you say so, Horowitz and Richter deserve equal recognition.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline Philip Daniel

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #20 on: October 10, 2004, 05:23:14 AM »
Quote


Ok, if you say so, Horowitz and Richter deserve equal recognition.

Are you saying Horowitz and Richter both deserve little recognition? They are both superb pianists, in my opinion, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, and both are influential to this day. There is no point in comparing them, as they are as different as night and day (sorry about the cliche.)
Best Wishes,
Philip Daniel

Offline Tash

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #21 on: October 10, 2004, 05:23:27 AM »
so you don't like a certain pianist big deal. i hope you at least have some respect that they absolutely love the same thing you do and have chosen it for their career. they've obviously put a lot of effort into their playing, so if even if you don't like the way they play, then just respect that.
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #22 on: October 10, 2004, 05:35:03 AM »
Quote
so you don't like a certain pianist big deal. i hope you at least have some respect that they absolutely love the same thing you do and have chosen it for their career. they've obviously put a lot of effort into their playing, so if even if you don't like the way they play, then just respect that.


You´re right, I didn´t see it that way.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #23 on: October 10, 2004, 05:37:50 AM »
Quote

Are you saying Horowitz and Richter both deserve little recognition?
Best Wishes,
Philip Daniel


I think Richter was much better musician that Horowitz in all aspects. I thought it was pretty obvious to others too. I was wrong, then it´s just me.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline thracozaag

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #24 on: October 10, 2004, 05:50:37 AM »
Quote


I think Richter was much better musician that Horowitz in all aspects. I thought it was pretty obvious to others too. I was wrong, then it´s just me.


 I don't see how Richter was "a much better musician" than Horowitz.  But if you feel that way, so be it.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #25 on: October 10, 2004, 06:56:54 AM »
Quote


 I don't see how Richter was "a much better musician" than Horowitz.  But if you feel that way, so be it.

koji (STSD)


It´s ok. You´re a great pianist so you should know better than I.

By the way if I start a thread would you give me some advice on memorizing and how do you do that?
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline mosis

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #26 on: October 10, 2004, 07:05:39 AM »
Horowitz's recording of Liszt's 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody was dreadful.

Shagdac

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #27 on: October 10, 2004, 07:32:59 AM »
This is really lame. Almost embarrassing. Anyone who thinks that Kissin or Horowitz really and truly sucks is a total moron. They may not be your favorite, and may not play everything the way you would, but they are far from sucking! I doubt most people in this forum have ever played like Horowitz or Kissin or will become as successful as either one. Just because one is fond of a pianist that has been around for awhile, does not mean that they cannot be open to other pianists at the same time. Or is there a rule I'm not familiar with where you have to pick only 1??? While there are many pianists who interpret  pieces differently than you, it does NOT mean they suck. It only means they interpret the piece differently. Maybe everyone else's sucks, did anyone ever think of that??? I can hardly read this trash anymore, when there is so much bashing of excellent pianists by those who have never made a CD, probably never will, who have probably studied for 5-10 years...and they are actually critiquing and putting down someone of Horowitz notability. Absolutely amazing! >:( I for one will never be as good as Horowitz OR Kissin, so far be it for me to put down either one. I admire both greatly....as I do ANYONE who has a passion for music and does there utmost to express it. Thank God we ARE all different and play differently....how utterly boring it would be if we all interpretted the same!

I would love to hear some audio files of some of you that put down Kissin or Horowitz (or anyone) for that matter. Just play a few Hungarian Rhapsodies for us, and let the forum be the judge! Yeah, right....lets see if that ever happens!

Okay, I feel better now. I'm done.
Didn't mean to offend anyone, don't think I've ever voiced an opinion so strongly, but this is really ridiculous.
Think about it people.

Have a nice day!

S  :)

Offline aki

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #28 on: October 10, 2004, 09:38:07 AM »
Horowitz doesn't suck!  If he sucked, then he wouldn't be so famous.  Yes he plays lots of wrong notes, but so what?  That's not what music is about, and plus nobody is perfect.

Rob47

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #29 on: October 10, 2004, 09:43:32 AM »
Here is the real answer. Horowitz is the best.  If you don't like him that's fine...but NO OTHER PIANIST can do what he does. No one. EVER.  So don't be stupid.

your inebriated friend
Rob

Offline rph108

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #30 on: October 10, 2004, 12:28:57 PM »
Why am I reading this rubbish? Anyone who has any right to criticize a great pianist would have to be someone at their level musically and technically, which I'm sure are none of us at this forum.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #31 on: October 10, 2004, 02:58:43 PM »
Quote
Anyone who has any right to criticize a great pianist would have to be someone at their level musically and technically.

This is definitely not true. Most coaches of top sports teams are not at the same level as their players (and they have never been). Many coaches of concert pianists are not at the same level as their pupils (and they have never been). One does not have to be able to play a perfect chromatic run to tell somebody else that his/her run needs improvement. One does not have to be able to play Liszt's Liebestraume musically perfectly to tell somebody else that his/her rendition needs improvement. One does not even have to tell how to fix something, just that something needs to be fixed. This applies to all areas.
Whether critisizm will be constructive, though, is a different question. This depends on competence.

Offline cziffra

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #32 on: October 10, 2004, 04:24:33 PM »
Perhaps i should not have insulted Horowitz so much in my original post.  For the record, i do not think he is bad.  I think he is quite good in fact.  My problem is that people never stop talking about him.

It's not that i'm getting sick of Horowitz, it's simply that i'm getting sick of this apparent obsession with the musical community in assessing a pianist based only on the comparison between them and...you guessed it, Horowitz.  Okay, he was good, he played scales really fast, could do astonishing things with octaves and played everything really loud, but such gymnastics do not mean you deserve to be THE pianistic yardstick for the rest of time.  Comparisons are fine, but the Horowitz comparisons in particular have gotten to the point that to be considered good, one has to BE LIKE HOROWITZ.  Even his supporters, on this very post, have told us that he was human and could make mistakes.  This is my point- the man is as fallible as any human being, it does not make sense for us to say "Pianist X is not like Horowitz, therefore, he's bad."

Read this interview with Horowitz:
Quote
Dubal: Was Rachmaninoff at the Tchaikovsky performance?

Horowitz: Yes, but he was not happy.

Dubal: Why?

Horowitz: He said to me, " Your octaves are the fastest and loudest, but I must tell you, it was not musical. It was not necessary." So I explained to him why I did it, and he began laughing and laughing.
What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould

Offline thracozaag

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #33 on: October 10, 2004, 04:50:26 PM »
Quote


It´s ok. You´re a great pianist so you should know better than I.

By the way if I start a thread would you give me some advice on memorizing and how do you do that?


 Sure, you could always PM me if you wish.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline thracozaag

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #34 on: October 10, 2004, 05:02:46 PM »
Quote
Perhaps i should not have insulted Horowitz so much in my original post.  For the record, i do not think he is bad.  I think he is quite good in fact.  My problem is that people never stop talking about him.

It's not that i'm getting sick of Horowitz, it's simply that i'm getting sick of this apparent obsession with the musical community in assessing a pianist based only on the comparison between them and...you guessed it, Horowitz.  Okay, he was good, he played scales really fast, could do astonishing things with octaves and played everything really loud, but such gymnastics do not mean you deserve to be THE pianistic yardstick for the rest of time.  Comparisons are fine, but the Horowitz comparisons in particular have gotten to the point that to be considered good, one has to BE LIKE HOROWITZ.  Even his supporters, on this very post, have told us that he was human and could make mistakes.  This is my point- the man is as fallible as any human being, it does not make sense for us to say "Pianist X is not like Horowitz, therefore, he's bad."

Read this interview with Horowitz:


 Look, whether or not Horowitz was the greatest of all time is, of course, highly subjective and arguable (A british critic once came under heavy fire for giving the title of a Horowitz review :Greatest pianist alive or dead).  
 What is unassailable, though, is that Horowitz was a unique figure; with his combination of temperment, articulation, and sonority (no pianist in my opinion had as much RANGE of sonority) you can hear one bar of his playing and immediately know it's him.  Quite simply, there was never a pianist like him, and there never will BE one like him again.  
 I think we should treasure all the amazing artists in our pianistic pantheon; to denigrate "Artist X" or limit oneself to "Artist Y" is pointless.  My personal favorite pianist is William Kapell, but I seek out opportunities to hear recordings from all the golden age pianists (Friedman, Moiseiwitsch, Rachmaninoff, Hofmann, Levitsky, Hambourg, etc) and am fortunate enough to have a wonderful circle of friend who share my passion and share recordings of these legendary artists.
 As pianists, we have a wonderful, rich heritage to draw upon..we should really take advantage of it, instead of getting bogged down in these petty squabbles.  
 Sorry for the lengthy post; end of sermon.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

f0bul0us

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #35 on: October 10, 2004, 05:07:25 PM »
Sounds like Cziffra auditioned at Julliard and is taking his rejection quite harsh. It's ok, when we all die and find ourselves playing "that big steinway in the sky" you'll be rotting in hell with the other musical failures that turned to bashing others instead of improving their own abilities.

Offline donjuan

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #36 on: October 10, 2004, 06:20:42 PM »
Quote
Horowitz's recording of Liszt's 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody was dreadful.

ok, first you say "horowitz sucks" and then you say his excellent recording of the hung. Rhap.2 sucks.  Why dont you actually back up your statememts for once?!  Seriously, I hope you get banned just for being such an ignorant ass.

Offline dreamaurora

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #37 on: October 10, 2004, 07:21:12 PM »
As much as I don't like Horowitz's style of playing, it is extremely childish for many of you to diss him just like that. I am 100% sure there is none of you here that have the same level of artistry as him, and even then there is this thing called RESPECT. If you don't respect someone, dead or alive, how can you expect people to respect you too?

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #38 on: October 10, 2004, 08:11:14 PM »
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Why am I reading this rubbish? Anyone who has any right to criticize a great pianist would have to be someone at their level musically and technically, which I'm sure are none of us at this forum.


Well, with that criteria, anybody would be capable of choosing what to hear.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline Antnee

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #39 on: October 10, 2004, 09:24:23 PM »
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 Look, whether or not Horowitz was the greatest of all time is, of course, highly subjective and arguable (A british critic once came under heavy fire for giving the title of a Horowitz review :Greatest pianist alive or dead).  
 What is unassailable, though, is that Horowitz was a unique figure; with his combination of temperment, articulation, and sonority (no pianist in my opinion had as much RANGE of sonority) you can hear one bar of his playing and immediately know it's him.  Quite simply, there was never a pianist like him, and there never will BE one like him again.  
 I think we should treasure all the amazing artists in our pianistic pantheon; to denigrate "Artist X" or limit oneself to "Artist Y" is pointless.  My personal favorite pianist is William Kapell, but I seek out opportunities to hear recordings from all the golden age pianists (Friedman, Moiseiwitsch, Rachmaninoff, Hofmann, Levitsky, Hambourg, etc) and am fortunate enough to have a wonderful circle of friend who share my passion and share recordings of these legendary artists.
 As pianists, we have a wonderful, rich heritage to draw upon..we should really take advantage of it, instead of getting bogged down in these petty squabbles.  
 Sorry for the lengthy post; end of sermon.

koji (STSD)



Well said Koji.

This post is ridiculous. And so are many of the replies to this thread. Why do these time consuming, pointless threads come up? And then they get tons of replies!  Critiquing other pianists may be an entertaining affair, but ultimately, around here, it causes anger and tension in the forum and is just a waste of time. Just a question to people. Why insult Horowitz? What in the world could you possibly gain by coming here and saying that Horowitz just isn't your cup of tea? Ok, so he isn't. Great, but really... Who cares? He became a famous pianist for a reason. He had something that appealed to may listeners. If you are not one of them, then is that his fault for not plucking your strings, or yours for just not liking it at all. Nobody likes every pianist they've ever heard. Wake up people! Why are you arguing about this stuff! Nobody is going to change the way you interpret a performance. You see, we as listeners have jobs too. We interpret a performance. If we fail to do it correclty we miss out on the uniqueness of the performance and it does sound like garbage. Horowitz (for example) was special because he had something special about him. Every pianist needs to be respected for their ideas. Horowitz had many. As do all other famous and even more other less famous pianists. We need to show respect. And if Rodney Dangerfield were here he would lay down the line on respect. No more bashing of anyone. It is pointless and stupid and dumb and... stupid. OK. I'm done.
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline Motrax

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #40 on: October 10, 2004, 09:59:25 PM »
Cziffra, I was unaware that everyone compares all pianists to Horowitz.  On this forum, the names Argerich, Cziffra, and Liszt (as a pianist) seemsto be much more discussed than Horowitz.  Where is it that you only hear of Horowitz?
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

f0bul0us

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #41 on: October 10, 2004, 10:30:40 PM »
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Well said Koji.

This post is ridiculous. And so are many of the replies to this thread. Why do these time consuming, pointless threads come up? And then they get tons of replies!  Critiquing other pianists may be an entertaining affair, but ultimately, around here, it causes anger and tension in the forum and is just a waste of time. Just a question to people. Why insult Horowitz? What in the world could you possibly gain by coming here and saying that Horowitz just isn't your cup of tea? Ok, so he isn't. Great, but really... Who cares? He became a famous pianist for a reason. He had something that appealed to may listeners. If you are not one of them, then is that his fault for not plucking your strings, or yours for just not liking it at all. Nobody likes every pianist they've ever heard. Wake up people! Why are you arguing about this stuff! Nobody is going to change the way you interpret a performance. You see, we as listeners have jobs too. We interpret a performance. If we fail to do it correclty we miss out on the uniqueness of the performance and it does sound like garbage. Horowitz (for example) was special because he had something special about him. Every pianist needs to be respected for their ideas. Horowitz had many. As do all other famous and even more other less famous pianists. We need to show respect. And if Rodney Dangerfield were here he would lay down the line on respect. No more bashing of anyone. It is pointless and stupid and dumb and... stupid. OK. I'm done.

Which is why I've been posting very little, everything important on these boards is on the FAQ. To be frank, all else is bullshit.

Offline donjuan

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #42 on: October 10, 2004, 10:32:55 PM »
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Which is why I've been posting very little, everything important on these boards is on the FAQ. To be frank, all else is bullshit.

haha so that's why I havent seen you around too much!  Nice to know you werent banned or anything..
:)donjuan

Spatula

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #43 on: October 10, 2004, 11:55:30 PM »
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Here is the real answer. Horowitz is the best.  If you don't like him that's fine...but NO OTHER PIANIST can do what he does. No one. EVER.  So don't be stupid.

your inebriated friend
Rob


well I gotta hand it to you, but then maybe a few pieces perhaps martha a did SLIGHTLY better...like the Rach 3.  But still Horowitz is king.

Agerich is still pretty damn good, but not all her recordings I like.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #44 on: October 11, 2004, 02:28:02 AM »
I don't think it's fair to say that one pianist is the best in any musical sense.  Certain pianists excel in certain styles of work.  Certain approaches appeal to different listeners.  It's all relative, except with regards to technique.  Even there, what's more important?  All the right notes, good phrasing, wide sonority, tone color, dynamic control, what?  There is no definite yardstick.

Unless you can quantify artistry (which I have yet to see done) you really can't say any pianist is musically superior to another with absolute precision, except in the realm of pure technique (which is, debatably, the easiest part of pianism).  Certainly, we can go on the basis of a concensus (i.e., most will agree that Argerich is better than the kid down the street), but even that will have it's flaws in terms of musicality, because it's so personal a subject.

When discussing the greats, saying that "Richter is better than Argerich" or "Horowitz is the greatest" or "Brendel is more intelligent than Schnabel" could be compared to saying "Chinese food is superior to Italian" or "The Beach is more beautiful than the mountains."  These things are all great/good/beautiful to some.  Thus, to insult someone's tastes in this regard, is akin to insulting that person's musical tastes-perhaps why pianists get so defensive about it.  Accept that you have your favorites, and don't whine that "everybody's" favorite is Horowitz (even though everything I've seen indicates that such a statement is completely false).

Also, I wish to address this issue about criticising others' playing.  Just because we may not be able to do what the greats could do, does not mean that they are above our criticism.  It means that we should show respect to their hard work, dedication, and love for music.  We are still free to criticise, as long as it's done in a thoughtful, constructive way that does not insult their personal musicality.

Anyway, sorry for the preachy tone.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #45 on: October 11, 2004, 02:59:47 AM »
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I don't think it's fair to say that one pianist is the best in any musical sense.

Please, when it comes to Beethoven, Rachmaninoff and Chopin, my girlfriend is simply the best. There is no question. Horowitz, Rubinstein, Richter, they all suck compared to my girlfriend. And she is also the best for Mozart. Did I say there is no better Bach interpreter?

Anybody who claims otherwise doesn't have the slightest clue about music and is not worthy to discuss this issue at all.

And the way she plays Liszt, ahhh, don't get me started.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #46 on: October 11, 2004, 03:38:30 AM »
I think you slightly missed my point.  The closest thing we can come to accurately judging the musicality of a performance is the concensus among pianists.  Most would agree that those who are called the greats truly did have some of the best musical interpretations.  However, in a strictly musical sense, one can't really say with scientific accuracy that one pianist is better than another.  It is their capacity to deliver that musicality that differs (i.e., two pianists may have equally valid interprative ideas, but one's superior technique will allow them to show their ideas more clearly).  All people have a musicality (although some musicalities are extremely personal and rather unpopular, others perhaps can be appreciated by everybody), but it's the ability to express that musicality that differs.

I hope I clarified that.

Offline cziffra

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #47 on: October 11, 2004, 03:50:06 AM »
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I think we should treasure all the amazing artists in our pianistic pantheon; to denigrate "Artist X" or limit oneself to "Artist Y" is pointless.  My personal favorite pianist is William Kapell, but I seek out opportunities to hear recordings from all the golden age pianists (Friedman, Moiseiwitsch, Rachmaninoff, Hofmann, Levitsky, Hambourg, etc) and am fortunate enough to have a wonderful circle of friend who share my passion and share recordings of these legendary artists.  
 As pianists, we have a wonderful, rich heritage to draw upon..we should really take advantage of it, instead of getting bogged down in these petty squabbles.  
 Sorry for the lengthy post; end of sermon.


I entirely agree!  That's my point, infact.  We have a rich heritage but all this constant "Ahh, but it wasn't as good as Horowitz" is narrowing and limiting it.  Having that big famous name to refer to and feel comfortable with means you are less likely to go out and search for, say, performances by medtner, which are just as valuable to us.  

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you'll be rotting in hell with the other musical failures that turned to bashing others instead of improving their own abilities.
 
You obviously missed the part where i said "i believe Horowitz is quite good."

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Horowitz (for example) was special because he had something special about him. Every pianist needs to be respected for their ideas. Horowitz had many. As do all other famous and even more other less famous pianists. We need to show respect.


Absolutely.  I agree entirely.  However i would add that whilst showing respect, it is perhaps worth balancing that respect among a wide range of pianists rather than devoting it all to Horowitz.  (And, maybe Argerich too.)  This is where i feel all the Horowitz worship becomes damaging.

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Cziffra, I was unaware that everyone compares all pianists to Horowitz.  On this forum, the names Argerich, Cziffra, and Liszt (as a pianist) seemsto be much more discussed than Horowitz.  Where is it that you only hear of Horowitz?


It's one of those things that build up over time- you find lots of small references everywhere.  For example, in the Art of the piano video, it seemed that Horowitz was really the centre of it all.  And why, because he was the most famous?  I thought we as "classical musicians" hated all pop-star style hype?
In a promotional video for Arcadi Volodos, the first thing they started talking about were comparisons between Volodos and Horowitz, and the last thing they talked about was what Volodos had that Horowitz had too.  Does it not matter that he is a SEPARATE HUMAN BEING!?  In a PROMOTIONAL VIDEO, shouldn't the person being promoted BE THE ONLY SUBJECT OF ATTENTION!?  
I see it ALL the time in music reviews- it seems the best compliment that can be given to a young, budding pianist is "you really reminded me of Horowitz."  I would much rather be told "I really enjoyed your performance," or even "you had something really original to say and i appreciate that."  

and so on...
What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould

Offline brewtality

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #48 on: October 11, 2004, 08:05:52 AM »
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well I gotta hand it to you, but then maybe a few pieces perhaps martha a did SLIGHTLY better...like the Rach 3.


i don't think, so no-one can touch Horowitz in that piece.

Offline cziffra

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Re: REMOVE HOROWITZ FROM YOUR VOCABULARY!
«Reply #49 on: October 11, 2004, 10:27:04 AM »
My point precisely.
What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould



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