Camping

[perprocrastinate]

Your thoughts on camping.

I'm not going to go camping again for a long time.

It's itchy. It's boring. The days dragged on forever. These past three days felt like three weeks.

That's not the worst of it yet. To pass the time, I forced myself to bike to the point of exhaustion. Going to the bathroom was awkward.

[j_menz]

Camping was invented to manifest the nature and terrors of Purgatory.  A lot like hell, but you do finally get out.

[qpalqpal]

I just came back from hell camping in New Hampshire, and it was pretty good. You have to be with family or friends to have a good time. And even if it rains or is hot, you have a good time with family. Place depends.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I only like camping when it's by myself.

[fleetfingers]

Just went camping this weekend. It was fun, but honestly I would probably never go if I didn't have boys and a husband who absolutely love it. I actually got to sleep in a bed in the cabin, but the kids were outside in a tent. Hate the way I smell when I get home, but I enjoy sitting by the campfire at night.

[m1469]

Yeah, I grew up camping but have come to have mixed feelings about it since awhile now.  Fundamentally, there's a lot that I like about it, but it really depends on where it is these days.  There is one campground that we really like, right on a fresh water lake as well as right at the coast (the lake and the beach are separated by a sand dune).  It's a quite small campground and everybody there is active on the water as a wind surfer, kite boarder, or sailing, there are no motor boats there.  Because people aren't there to just hang out, or to just motor boat around, there aren't the same kind of partiers that you can get at other campgrounds.  The campground gets truly quiet at about 10pm and everybody there is extremely friendly and nice.  It's also just nice grounds.  I like to be able to go walking and looking for agates on the beach, sometimes I've tried windsurfing on the lake (and can swim there, too), and there are tide pools in a town not too far away and another artsy beach town that's fun to visit.  That kind of camping is fun.  I do tend to look at RVs these days and start to understand the charm of those vs. tents.  

Being outdoors is something I start to deeply miss if I don't let myself leave my work for weeks/months/years.  It's been difficult for me to put down work that I've felt I need to be doing lately, but I've been trying to make a point of getting into the mountains/forest once a week, and I've always felt a sense of being mentally refocused and refreshed as I get into the trees, fresh air, and to the lake we've been sailing on lately.  I must say, though, it's nice to be able to be truly in the mountains, forest, at the lake, but with the luxury of being able to easily be sleeping back in my own bed and with a real shower, too!  We might go camping in a couple of weekends though, somewhere new .

[ahinton]

Being outdoors is something I start to deeply miss if I don't let myself leave my work for weeks/months/years.  It's been difficult for me to put down work that I've felt I need to be doing lately, but I've been trying to make a point of getting into the mountains/forest once a week, and I've always felt a sense of being mentally refocused and refreshed as I get into the trees, fresh air, and to the lake we've been sailing on lately.  I must say, though, it's nice to be able to be truly in the mountains, forest, at the lake

It's called "getting out more"(!)...

I agree that failure to allocate at least some time de temps en temps for life in the rural outdoors is a bad idea. That said, I wouldn't go camping if I was paid to do it - well, not unless I was paid an absurdly large sum! I am inclined to endorse the negative comments about it that have been made upthread.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

I agree that failure to allocate at least some time de temps en temps for life in the rural outdoors is a bad idea.

Five minutes, once a decade appears sufficient. I like my outdoors a little tamer, and much closer to a decent coffee.

[davidjosepha]

You guys make me laugh, talking about campgrounds! We Minnesotans make heavy use of the BWCA (Boundary Waters Canoe Area). It's a good feeling knowing that if I died, it would be weeks before anyone realized I was gone, and months before they found the body.

[m1469]

It's called "getting out more"(!)...

you don't have to tell me; this fact, I already very much know.  Still, theoretical is one thing, reality is another.

[m1469]

It's called "getting out more"(!)...

I do want to point out that I have recently started -since I've returned from Europa- going sailing once a week with my husband on the ($50 - including trailer!) Hobie Cat that he acquired last Winter (I've also brought my fishing pole and put the line in the water when there's no wind or from the shore, but no bites).  It's actually been pretty enjoyable, and there is even a race this coming Saturday ... I haven't decided yet (nor have I committed to) if I would like to be the other person on the boat or not ...

[thalbergmad]

My days of camping are most definately finished. I can still handle a day in the mountains in horrific weather, but after that I need a good meal, a gallon of ale and a warm bed.

No doubt I will get drenched on my trip to the Brecon Beacons next month, but there will be no tents for me.

Thal

[starstruck5]

I have never understood why any sane person would enjoy camping!  It's sort of like living, but in a dumbed down form -I wouldn't survive a camping trip where people were fishing anyhow -as I would try and push them in the water -or make a hole in their boat -I wouldn't be too popular -

[m1469]

Surely you are not hypocritical and you must be vegan, then?  I actually have mixed feelings on fishing and haven't caught any fish (nor gone fishing) for years.  It's something my family did growing up, though, and that's probably part of the mystical draw for me recently.

[starstruck5]

I have been vegan all my adult life -I am not fanatical about converting anyone though -

I always used to be amazed at that Painter BoB Ross -who used to nurse baby squirrels and birds -and yet express a fondness for fishing -he would say 'If I catch one, Hell, I put a plaster on its mouth and put the rascal back!@ or words similar to that -

It is like drowning to a fish though -they need water like we need air -

[davidjosepha]

Surely you are not hypocritical and you must be vegan, then?

(Real) vegetarians don't eat fish either.

[m1469]

(Real) Vegetarians are vegetarians by choice of living a philosophical stance that goes beyond popular or unpopular dietic beliefs on what is considered good or bad for the human body to be digesting, but is also or largely centered around not wanting to be cruel to animals, with the idea that cruelty = killing them for food.  Real vegetarians who take this stance but don't take it as far as veganism are not fully living the philosophical stance which underlines the reason to be vegetarian, since harvesting any product from animals at worst involves completely inhumane methods even if not killing the animal itself, or at least still treats animals as a kind of crop for the sake of humans, even if treated in a way that is considered humane.  There are sometimes deeply rooted beliefs which would go against that in itself.  

Vegans who have animal products of any sort inside of their daily lifestyles (leather, silk, petrol, *any* product tested on animals, etc., etc., ...) are not fully living a vegan philosophy.  Even growing crops with fertilizer from animals could be problematic for real vegans.  But why stop there?  Personally, I think it's quite sad that raw food and "live food" diets encourage the killing and eating of young and innocent sprouts, mushrooms, vegetables, etc..  But, those are not truly living, breathing organisms, surely, vs. animals who are.  Plants surely don't have a soul ... they just respond to human affection, light, water, being fed and taken care of because ... that's just part of the mysterious, material world that we live in!  Nevermind ecosystems and colonies where individual plants and animals bond together and create an entire living organism together.  

Then again, man harvesting from the world for the sake of man at all is egocentric and actively killing the world and, in fact, I find it quite disgusting that material man puts material world into his/her mouth and body at all and instead hasn't altogether overcome the need to eat matter.

[davidjosepha]

Then again, man harvesting from the world for the sake of man at all is egocentric and actively killing the world and, in fact, I find it quite disgusting that material man puts material world into his/her mouth and body at all and instead hasn't altogether overcome the need to eat matter.

I'm going to assume (/hope), especially based on this passage, that this whole comment is intended to be ironic.

*any* product tested on animals

I laugh at the people against animal testing, considering most (all?) modern medicine relies on animal testing. Better enjoy your life while you have it, since without medicine, you'll lower your life expectancy by a couple decades.

[ahinton]

(Real) Vegetarians are vegetarians by choice of living a philosophical stance that goes beyond popular or unpopular dietic beliefs on what is considered good or bad for the human body to be digesting, but is also or largely centered around not wanting to be cruel to animals, with the idea that cruelty = killing them for food.  Real vegetarians who take this stance but don't take it as far as veganism are not fully living the philosophical stance which underlines the reason to be vegetarian, since harvesting any product from animals at worst involves completely inhumane methods even if not killing the animal itself, or at least still treats animals as a kind of crop for the sake of humans, even if treated in a way that is considered humane.  There are sometimes deeply rooted beliefs which would go against that in itself.  

Vegans who have animal products of any sort inside of their daily lifestyles (leather, silk, petrol, *any* product tested on animals, etc., etc., ...) are not fully living a vegan philosophy.  Even growing crops with fertilizer from animals could be problematic for real vegans.  But why stop there?  Personally, I think it's quite sad that raw food and "live food" diets encourage the killing and eating of young and innocent sprouts, mushrooms, vegetables, etc..  But, those are not truly living, breathing organisms, surely, vs. animals who are.  Plants surely don't have a soul ... they just respond to human affection, light, water, being fed and taken care of because ... that's just part of the mysterious, material world that we live in!  Nevermind ecosystems and colonies where individual plants and animals bond together and create an entire living organism together.  

Then again, man harvesting from the world for the sake of man at all is egocentric and actively killing the world and, in fact, I find it quite disgusting that material man puts material world into his/her mouth and body at all and instead hasn't altogether overcome the need to eat matter.

Man has to eat something in order to survive - but then all creatures rear, grow and/or kill other living organisms of one kind or another in order to do just that; it's all about levels of survival. If you get too hooked up on that you'll risk believing that all creatures that decimate lower life forms in order to survive are somehow doing so immorally. It's all egocentric. Live with that!

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

I'm going to assume (/hope), especially based on this passage, that this whole comment is intended to be ironic.

Well, we can perhaps be mildly happy that I don't practice, nor make idle cyber threats about my practice of, pushing people anywhere or shooting anything at them simply because they live against the way I see the world.  

[m1469]

Man has to eat something in order to survive - but then all creatures rear, grow and/or kill other living organisms of one kind or another in order to do just that; it's all about levels of survival. If you get too hooked up on that you'll risk believing that all creatures that decimate lower life forms in order to survive are somehow doing so immorally. It's all egocentric. Live with that!

Best,

Alistair

I already agree and am currently living with it, as well as the notion that there are "levels" of life forms, the best I can.

[ahinton]

I already agree and am currently living with it, as well as the idea that there are levels of life forms, the best I can.

OK - but then don't actually worry about it, because that's how we're all here in the first place; it's not actually a problem, moral, legal, ecological or otherwise! The trouble with the "ideas" of some of those of the so-called "dark green" persuasion is that they're based on a kind of negative and backward-looking attitude, despite the fact that we're all moving forwards. Let's look at this in purely musical terms; we can examine the Western musical lingua franca of, say, the 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th centuries and. if we're daft enough, we can accuse each of the more recent ones as being more obsessively predatory and egocentric than were their predecessors, yet each of those predecessors was developing to the point where expansion of expression was king and remains so - i.e. more predatory and egocentric that what went before, but as a direct consequence of what went before. It might be seen as an illustration of how human life works in more general terms, though not only in negative terms but in terms of constant expansion, increased demand and expectation and the rest. The emotional expressions in the finest of Bach's work exceeded much of what had preceded him, but then Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Schönberg - and so we go on, constantly expanding horizons of expressive capability and, in so doing, we become more predatory because we do not ignore our musical heritage when we do so - always expanding, as inevitably we do, horizons and expectations and developing greater and more detailed emotional capacities and sensitivities. As I said - live with it!

Mais mon Dieu - what has any of this stuff to do with camping?(!!!)..

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

If you cover yourself in sheep crap, it keeps the midges away.

Thal

[davidjosepha]

If you cover yourself in sheep crap, it keeps the midges away.

Thal

I'm not sure if this is a metaphor or just good advice

[m1469]

As I said - live with it!

I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me to "live with it" and what that's supposed to mean, exactly.  I shouldn't have thoughts and an opinion?  If I do, don't express it?  I am not living with whatever already?  I don't get it.  Perhaps you mean something different.  

The main conundrum to humanity at all is a general wondering if we are truly progressing as humanity or not; we wonder what does it really mean?  What does it look like?  How do we know?  Obviously mere "expansion" doesn't necessarily = progress.    

When talking about camping, we are talking about man interacting with nature, and there are bound to come up issues with that.  Yesterday we sailed to an island on the lake and got out to walk around.  This island has obviously been frequented by people who "enjoy" it, obvious not just because of items like a random dumping of pounds of vegetables left in a particular spot, or toilet papers left in other spots, but because of items like loads of plastic water bottles put inside a fire ring ... to be burned?  To be picked up by ... somebody else?  Or a random gas tank left for ... themselves?  Somebody else?  The birds?  I didn't even enjoy seeing pine cones tied to tree limbs, or a pine cone wind "chime"/stalk obviously made by people with nothing better to do at a campfire and hung between two tree trunks.  

[thalbergmad]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me to "live with it" and what that's supposed to mean, exactly.  

It is just his attempt at 21st Century lingo.

No doubt we will have "whatever" before long.

Thal

[j_menz]

If you cover yourself in sheep crap, it keeps the midges away.

Thal

Some of us prefer one of the myriad bug repellents available commercially.

Of course, in Australia the sheep crap thing doesn't work. We don't really have midges, and it attracts rather than repels the flies.

[ahinton]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me to "live with it" and what that's supposed to mean, exactly.  I shouldn't have thoughts and an opinion?  If I do, don't express it?  I am not living with whatever already?  I don't get it.  Perhaps you mean something different.

Up to a point, I do, yes; by "live with it" I am implying that you and I and everyone else has no choice but to "live with it". Of course you should have and express thoughts and opinions!  

The main conundrum to humanity at all is a general wondering if we are truly progressing as humanity or not; we wonder what does it really mean?  What does it look like?  How do we know?  Obviously mere "expansion" doesn't necessarily = progress.

No, it doesn't; what was are better able to do nowadays, if so we wish, is have a good idea as to what is and is not progress - better than was possible, say, a century or two ago.

When talking about camping, we are talking about man interacting with nature, and there are bound to come up issues with that.  Yesterday we sailed to an island on the lake and got out to walk around.  This island has obviously been frequented by people who "enjoy" it, obvious not just because of items like a random dumping of pounds of vegetables left in a particular spot, or toilet papers left in other spots, but because of items like loads of plastic water bottles put inside a fire ring ... to be burned?  To be picked up by ... somebody else?  Or a random gas tank left for ... themselves?  Somebody else?  The birds?  I didn't even enjoy seeing pine cones tied to tree limbs, or a pine cone wind "chime"/stalk obviously made by people with nothing better to do at a campfire and hung between two tree trunks.

Yes, there can be no doubt that some people care so little for where they are that they don't bother about taking their detritus away with them when they leave...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

If you cover yourself in sheep crap, it keeps the midges away.

Do you speak with the voice of personal experience here?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No doubt we will have "whatever" before long.

Whatever makes you think that?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Of course, in Australia the sheep crap thing doesn't work. We don't really have midges, and it attracts rather than repels the flies.

No, indeed; you have Madges there, don't you?

Bestg,

Alistair

[j_menz]

No, indeed; you have Madges there, don't you?

Bestg,

Alistair

Indeed. Most famously of the Geoffrey Douglas and the Allsopp variety.

[starstruck5]

'Whatever '

[starstruck5]

Well, we can perhaps be mildly happy that I don't practice, nor make idle cyber threats about my practice of, pushing people anywhere or shooting anything at them simply because they live against the way I see the world.  

I didn't say anything about shooting -

We all act against people who don't see things the way we do all the time -If you saw someone kicking a dog to death in the street -would you stand idly by?

Problems always arise when there is a conflict of values -Idle Cyber threats maybe -but although I have long given up trying to be ethical in an unethical savage world -I am comfortable with who I am -I suppose that is all anyone can hope for.

[m1469]

I didn't say anything about shooting -

I see, you will now just "make" a hole in the boat, not shoot (and possibly hit somebody  ).

We all act against people who don't see things the way we do all the time -If you saw someone kicking a dog to death in the street -would you stand idly by?

Considering one would be for food and one would be just for the sake of cruelty alone (and presumably not for food), I don't have much more to say except for pointing that out.  I wouldn't stand idly by watching trees get destroyed by people just wanting to destroy trees for no other reason than destroying trees, either.  

[thalbergmad]

I like trees

[m1469]

I like trees

Happy to read it  .

Up to a point, I do, yes; by "live with it" I am implying that you and I and everyone else has no choice but to "live with it".

Ok, I get it.