Etudes

[davidjosepha]

Okay, I'm going to start one of those stupid threads everyone hates.

I've been thinking about succumbing to the whole etude thing. There are 4 groups of etudes I'm interested in...

Chopin (all)
Liszt "Transcendental"
Rachmaninoff "Etudes-tableaux"
Scriabin (all)

...especially the Rach and Liszt.

I have a couple questions.

First, do they actually build technique (assuming they are practiced properly) any better than any other difficult piece, or are they merely flashy demonstrations of virtuosity?

Second, at what level is it appropriate to start these? I know they're very difficult, obviously, but they're also intended to build technique, so presumably you wouldn't start playing the piece once you already have the technique to play it, because then you'd just be learning the notes.

I really don't want to start any of them until I'm ready to do so as there are plenty of other pieces that I like just as much, if not more. It's more a matter of "take your medicine, it's good for you" than anything else. My biggest thing is, I find passages in pieces I play that are comparable in difficulty, I believe, to some of the easier etudes, except it's for a measure or two, instead of for an entire piece, and I generally can work out these measures because it's such a short part, but I'd like to be able to play something like that consistently and for more than just a few seconds.

Anything more anyone could tell me about these etudes, or etudes in general, would be great.

Edit: Also, the Moszkowski etudes, op. 72. Those aren't as interesting to me musically, but they appear to be a step down in difficulty from the ones I mentioned. Would they be a good place to start?

[49410enrique]

my take on etudes is that they are not so much meant to build your techniqe so much as they are a tool to help solidify and refine a techniuqe that you already developed or have begun to develop, i.e from your work in other pieces.

where i think they can be very helpful in this regard has to do with the fact there there is usually a single main or just a few technicial issues/hurdles that are presented throughout the work over and over again in different musical contexts vs say a single technical issue you might come across in one passage and one passage only in another 'non etude' work, so you get lots of 'targeted' and focused attention on this 'issue' or technique, so in that regard they can say, not teach you some arpegios of the left hand (though it can but there are other ways to prolly better do this) but if you have a decent lh arpegio, an etude that exploits this all over the keybaord in different harmonies all within a musical context/framework, can be very helpful.

when are you ready, i'd say when you  you are playing works in comparable difficult (or even just a little less difficult, the etude can 'stretch you a bit' sodo not be afraid to over reach, BUT JUST A LITTLE, they can really accellerate your abilities and confidence in difficult works).

a the end of the day it's also probably trial and error, simply pick you one you think you can handle, and spend a month or two on it diligently and after that period if you find you are barely making any progress or it way tooo slow, then you put it away for a while and come back to it. i've done that with etudes before it some i didn't really have the ability to navigate it well until several years and a 'third attempt'. that said you'd certainly not have lost anything, i've yet to see anyone, myself included, be any LESS of pianist for time spent with new difficult music.

as such my best advice is for you to do just that. pull the scores , pull recordings (also listen to at least one 'historic' recording by a great pianist of he past in addition to a modern version as tastes and 'practices' can change somewhat so it's nice to have a broad concept of how to approch it, not just what is the 'cool thing now' nor only what some great reverred pianist did 50+ years ago.  listen a bunch with scores and bit by bit narrow it down based on what you feel you might be able to handle then from those pick one and try it and see

[davidjosepha]

Thanks for the help! I think I'm going to start with the Moszkowski, just so I don't bite off more than I can chew at first, and see how that goes. Thanks!

[leroy199]

I would suggest liszt etude 12 exercise s136,  they are less challenging then chopins etude, and if you are able to go threw a few of Cerny etude Op740  with the tempo required, well I find its a good way to know if u are ready to tackle some of chopins etude.

 Moszkowski Is not all that intrestin muically in my opinion

[leroy199]

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[49410enrique]

..
 Moszkowski Is not all that intrestin muically in my opinion

was damn fine trascriber/arranger too, his treatment of his is stunning ( i like it more than the more often performed Liszt version)

just sayin. i can resect  your opinion but mine couldn't be more different from yours. it's okay though, that's what makes this place interesting, all the different views  

[outin]

One of the best concertos ever! Have to go listen to it right away, it's been a while.
But maybe he meant the etudes...

[leroy199]

I do not necessarily disagree with you,  I find Moszkowski to be a great composer and admire his transcriptions,  I just have a little trouble with his etude, I find them to be an effort to appreciate musically unlike Chopin, Skryabin, Debussy or even Cerny i find to be interesting from a musical point of view and not only focussing on finger exercise like Cramer,  moscheles and a few others

[danhuyle]

Since I like playing the etudes you listed, I'll tell you the order I learned them in.

Scriabin Etudes Op8 - I find this set to be the "easiest" to complete.

The order I'm learning
Scriabin Etudes Op8
Liszt Transcendental Etudes


Rachmaninoff - nothing to say here since I haven't played these
Chopin - I prefer playing Liszt TE and Scriabin Op8 etudes since they sound so much better plus Chopin's Etudes are way more demanding.

Other Scriabin Etudes - haven't looked at it, and all I know is they're far more demanding than Op8.

Though I haven't played Moszkowski, if it sounds good to you, then play it.