Which piece is harder

[graceandbeauty]

Hello everyone, I was just wondering which song do you think is harder to learn. Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata 3d movement or Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu? I have been playing the piano for about 8 years now and think I am just about ready to start tackling one of my all time favorite songs. I am not in lessons currently but might be soon at which time I would ask bring up the subject of playing one of these songs. Your suggestions and advice would also be welcomed. And for the record I am just turning 15... So yah I am not an adult.

[scherzo123]

moonlight sonata 3rd mvt. is harder. I did the fatasie impromptu and all that is difficult are the polyrhythms and nore clarity. Moonlight sonata is more technical and takes a lot of control.

[j_menz]

It really depends on how comfortable you are with polyrhythms. FI is not really a good place to start getting comfortable with them.

[scherzo123]

It really depends on how comfortable you are with polyrhythms. FI is not really a good place to start getting comfortable with them.

What about Etude Op.25 No.2? 

[j_menz]

What about Etude Op.25 No.2? 

Also not a good starting point.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Also not a good starting point.

You're probably gonna say something by Bach aren't you?

[lloyd_cdb]

for the sake of understanding and building up to it rhythmically, I'd say learn trois nouvelle etudes no. 2. Once you have it down, reduce the quavers in the left hand into semi's and add your own musical passing notes.  It will help for hearing the patterns, as well as prep you for godowsky's version if you want to learn it.

[j_menz]

You're probably gonna say something by Bach aren't you?

Bach is good generally, ,and good for developing the skills you will ultimately need in order to be able to do complex polyrhythms. That said, there are pieces which directly give better practice. Debussy's 1st Arabesque comes to mind. A combination of both would be ideal.

[scherzo123]

You're probably gonna say something by Bach aren't you?

lol.

[hhopkinson1]

Hi, Can I say that I think you have been doing the right thing, taking your time until you are ready to tackle a true classic. Most people such as I (I am also 15 and have only been playing the piano for. 6 years but have just finished my grade eight ) jumped into the Chopin's ballades too quickly. Anyway, n terms of your question, it is not which is harder for anyone whom is attempting these, it is what technique fits you best. I believe they are two distinguishly diverse movements. Fantasie impromptu for me, was a struggle. You have to take your time with it. Although moonlight sonata 3rd mov. Is also quite painstaking. Can I suggest chopin's nocturne no 20 in c sharp minor posth. It is about grade seven - eight and is a good starting point I think. Try it!
Hope I helped,

[hhopkinson1]

Also please do not call masterpieces "songs"

[ajspiano]

What about Etude Op.25 No.2? 

mm.. definitely not a starting point..

I actually got into a bit of a short argument here on the forum with someone who insisted that that piece contains no poly-rhythmic element whatsoever :-/

the fellow then proceeded to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about, purely because he'd studied the piece (didnt even think for a second I might have too, or that he may possibly not know everything in the world)..    you know, as opposed to explaining his argument.

obviously he didn't study it too closely.

[j_menz]

mm.. definitely not a starting point..

I actually got into a bit of a short argument here on the forum with someone who insisted that that piece contains no poly-rhythmic element whatsoever :-/

the fellow then proceeded to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about, purely because he'd studied the piece (didnt even think for a second I might have too, or that he may possibly not know everything in the world)..    you know, as opposed to explaining his argument.

obviously he didn't study it too closely.

Perhaps he played it in such a way as to do away with the polyrhythms?

[ajspiano]

Perhaps he played it in such a way as to do away with the polyrhythms?

I believe so, but he really seemed to believe that they were not there..  asserting that I was reading into the score in such a way as that I was just making things up and over complicating it..   

[j_menz]

I believe so, but he really seemed to believe that they were not there..  asserting that I was reading into the score in such a way as that I was just making things up and over complicating it..   

LOL, he may be right. Maybe those extra tunes we're seeing in a fugue are also a figment of a febrile imagination?

[perprocrastinate]

I'm ashamed. Don't look at me.

[j_menz]

I never actually wanted to start one of 'these' threads.

So hijacking another one is better?

[ajspiano]

LOL, he may be right. Maybe those extra tunes we're seeing in a fugue are also a figment of a febrile imagination?

I can see the music theory text book..

Counterpoint: The Amateur Pianist's Illusion.

[perprocrastinate]

So hijacking another one is better?

Okay I take it back. I'm sorry everyone.

*hides head in shame in corner*

[j_menz]

Okay I take it back. I'm sorry everyone.

*hides head in shame in corner*

All fixed. Lesson learnt. All forgiven. 

[j_menz]

I can see the music theory text book..

Counterpoint: The Amateur Pianist's Illusion.

Point sans Counter

[davidjosepha]

Also please do not call masterpieces "songs"

I'd consider it a bit of a stretch to call Fantaisie Impromptu a masterpiece 

Perhaps he played it in such a way as to do away with the polyrhythms?

Uh, how could you play a piece with polyrhythms without polyrhythms? Would one hand end the measure sooner than the other or what? Like, triplets over 8th notes, for instance, would you play the first 2 notes in unison and then the third note by itself?

Maybe the guy was confused by the definition of polyrhythm, but was playing the piece correctly?

[j_menz]

I'd consider it a bit of a stretch to call Fantaisie Impromptu a masterpiece 

Chopin will be so hurt!

Uh, how could you play a piece with polyrhythms without polyrhythms? Would one hand end the measure sooner than the other or what? Like, triplets over 8th notes, for instance, would you play the first 2 notes in unison and then the third note by itself?

Maybe the guy was confused by the definition of polyrhythm, but was playing the piece correctly?

Not all polyrhythms have non-unison notes.

[ajspiano]

Uh, how could you play a piece with polyrhythms without polyrhythms?

Quite easily in 25/2.

Look at the score. Everything lines up like its a straight rhythm, the polyrhythm is in the feel of the beats, or groups of notes - not individual notes.

Loosely explained...

2 beats in the RH (as 3 notes each) vs 3 beats in the left hand (as single notes per beat), not a straight 2 notes vs 3 notes. Awesome compositional idea.   "pluses" is probably a better word than beats, since technically the piece has minum beats and I'm talking about crotchets.


...the guy I had the tiff with argued that the RH need not be grouped in 3's, rather just in 2's which allowed it to be completely in sync with the LH... and destroyed half of what makes the piece an "etude" 

[j_menz]

and destroyed half of what makes the piece an "etude" 

It's actually a great idea for an etude, because just doing the timings won't get you anywhere at all, you need to be able to deal with multiple rhythms, ie actually feel the two lines not just fake it.

[ajspiano]

It's actually a great idea for an etude, because just doing the timings won't get you anywhere at all, you need to be able to deal with multiple rhythms, ie actually feel the two lines not just fake it.

Like with all of them, the real skill Frédéric is pushing is rarely in plain sight...  at least not what I perceive the challenges to be..

Its like with these people that say, "25/12..  not too difficult, just an arpeggio study" ... I see "study of rhythmic pulses/accent that fall against the natural flow of arm motion within a given hand position, in the context of arpeggios"

...or in other words, rhythm in 4's against arm patterns in 3's - feeling musical patterns that are against physical patterns. Which is applicable pretty much everywhere across the entire repertoire once you figure it out.

...

but what would I know? I probably am reading too much into it.

[davidjosepha]

Quite easily in 25/2.

Look at the score. Everything lines up like its a straight rhythm, the polyrhythm is in the feel of the beats, or groups of notes - not individual notes.

Ah yes, sorry, my mind was stuck in thinking about the individual notes being polyrhythmic, not the pulses. Now I get it, thank you!

[hhopkinson1]

I'd consider it a bit of a stretch to call Fantaisie Impromptu a masterpiece 

Uh, how could you play a piece with polyrhythms without polyrhythms? Would one hand end the measure sooner than the other or what? Like, triplets over 8th notes, for instance, would you play the first 2 notes in unison and then the third note by itself?

Maybe the guy was confused by the definition of polyrhythm, but was playing the piece correctly?

You have to be joking ! The arrogance that you have is unreal ! What an amateur. Before you start criticising Chopin here, I am certain that you could not compose anything like a Chopin piece. Never mind fantasie impromptu. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to (controversially) the greatest composers! :/

[49410enrique]

You have to be joking ! The arrogance that you have is unreal ! What an amateur. Before you start criticising Chopin here, I am certain that you could not compose anything like a Chopin piece. Never mind fantasie impromptu. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to (controversially) the greatest composers! :/

you make very good points. and it is commendable the admiration and respect you have for the old master/masters. just wanted to politely interject (im not trying to start an arguement, i love chopin too), but i think he was kidding, thus the smiley tonguey face.

though to be fair, chopin would most likely consider it a stretch to call FI a masterpiece too. he wasn't very fond of it at all, and sort of considered it a failed composition, thus his reluctance/refusal to allow it to be published during his lifetime (he infact asked for it to be destroyed, he felt the piece was too derivative of the Op. 89 impromptu of Ignaz Moscheles, who he very much respected).

again i don't think he meant any ill will by the comment, and he certainly has never come across to me as arrogant via the the many private convesations we have shared (in fact he is one of the more gracious and humble members of our community).

[outin]

I would also say that among HIS compositions it's no masterpiece, but if it was written by...me for example, it would certainly be!

It is not arrogance to make a negative comment on a composition as long as it's your genuine opinion. And you don't have to be able to compose yourself to do so. This is the thing with art: It's value is and always will be subjective and the artists very knowingly expose themself to critisism of the more ignorant public

[davidjosepha]

You have to be joking ! The arrogance that you have is unreal ! What an amateur. Before you start criticising Chopin here, I am certain that you could not compose anything like a Chopin piece. Never mind fantasie impromptu. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to (controversially) the greatest composers! :/

You have got to be joking. I have no arrogance, as I never said I could write something better. And yes, as an 18 year old with no plans to pursue music as a career, I most certainly am an amateur. I'm glad you noticed. I'm pretty sure most people on this board are amateurs.

A piece of art is not judged by whether or not the critic could do better. If it were, artists would never be critiqued. For instance, I know when watching the Olympics that someone attempting a triple backflip who ends up landing horizontally, rather than vertically, is a pretty awful diver. I doubt I could do even one backflip, but that's irrelevant. If you put yourself in a position to be judged, you cannot be offended when someone does just that (although, even Chopin seemed to recognize what an awful piece of music FI is considering he never published it, so I guess it's not fair to judge him too harshly on something he never offered up for judgment).

And yes, I do enjoy the piano, but I have no more reverence for Chopin than I do for my dog. He was clearly a talented composer, but I do not hold him (or any composer) on a pedestal, and as such, I judge each of his works on merit, not on "Well, Chopin wrote it, so it must be amazing."

[j_menz]

You have to be joking ! The arrogance that you have is unreal ! What an amateur. Before you start criticising Chopin here, I am certain that you could not compose anything like a Chopin piece. Never mind fantasie impromptu. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to (controversially) the greatest composers! :/

Frankly, this is nonsense. It is perfectly OK to not like the works of a composer, even one considered greart, and it is even more OK to not like particular works by a composer or to not regard them as highly as others. Everyone does it. Indeed, not to do so would indicate that a person has no individual appreciation of music at all. There will be disagreement amongts us as to those matters, but that is the start of potentially fruitful exploration. The "it's by X therefore you have to like it and admit it's greatness" does not add any value to that.

[lloyd_cdb]

On a brief lighter note:

greart

Is this the new contraction of great and art?  If so, well done!

[j_menz]

On a brief lighter note:

Is this the new contraction of great and art?  If so, well done!

Glad you approve. My neologising normally goes unnoticed (or is dismissed as bad typing). 

[davidjosepha]

Glad you approve. My neologising normally goes unnoticed (or is dismissed as bad typing). 

I don't do contractions, but I often omit the last syllable(s) of any word with more than 2 syllables. Especially words that end with "-tion" or alternate spellings of the same sound. "Tradition" becomes "tradish", for instance. My English teachers hate me, except one, who also does the same thing.

[j_menz]

I don't do contractions, but I often omit the last syllable(s) of any word with more than 2 syllables. Especially words that end with "-tion" or alternate spellings of the same sound. "Tradition" becomes "tradish", for instance. My English teachers hate me, except one, who also does the same thing.

That causes me constern. 

Damn! That actually worked.

[graceandbeauty]

Can I suggest chopin's nocturne no 20 in c sharp minor posth. It is about grade seven - eight and is a good starting point I think. Try it!

Don't mean to thumb my nose at anyone but I have been there done that! Yah Um I have waited quite a few years to learn one of these pieces. Thanks for the info guys though the subject seems to have gotten lost somewhere but whatever. Please check out my other post.

[werq34ac]

You have to be joking ! The arrogance that you have is unreal ! What an amateur. Before you start criticising Chopin here, I am certain that you could not compose anything like a Chopin piece. Never mind fantasie impromptu. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to (controversially) the greatest composers! :/

You have to be joking! The ignorance that you have is unreal! What an amateur. Before you start under-crediting Chopin here, I am certain that you have no idea of Chopin's true genius. If you were any sort of pianist or enjoy piano, then you should be respectful to Chopin and realize that his abilities as a composer far exceeds the ones exhibited in the Fantasie-Impromptu.

On a serious note, we're not saying Fantasie-Impromptu is a piece of trash (although Chopin thought so). We're saying it can't compare at all to Chopin's real masterpieces, like the ballades.


On the subject, If polyrhythms don't give you any trouble at all, then Fantasie-impromptu is easier. I mean you could piece either piece, but if you're not familiar with polyrhythms AT ALL, then no Fantasie Impromptu for you.

Started learning to do polyrhythms at around age 12. Took a whole year to get 2 and 3 down without any effort. Took another year to get 3 and 4. And then another year to be able to look at any polyrhythm and laugh at it. Polyrhythms take a bit of time to get used to, but once you know how to do it, it's really not that hard.

[j_menz]

Took another year to get 3 and 4. And then another year to be able to look at any polyrhythm and laugh at it.

There's a lovely sonata by Weber that has a full page of 3/4 polyrhythm all in the right hand (left hand being otherwise occupied). I'm quite comfortable with polyrhythyms, but I really didn't laugh.

[ajspiano]

I'm quite comfortable with polyrhythyms, but I really didn't laugh.

I like to snigger at them behind their backs..   I'll be playing some other piece and be thinking "heheh polyrhythms, thinkin' they're hard and all that"

[werq34ac]

There's a lovely sonata by Weber that has a full page of 3/4 polyrhythm all in the right hand (left hand being otherwise occupied). I'm quite comfortable with polyrhythyms, but I really didn't laugh.

That's one thing I'm not used to yet. Polyrhythms in one freaking hand. Shouldn't even be legal...

[j_menz]

That's one thing I'm not used to yet. Polyrhythms in one freaking hand. Shouldn't even be legal...

There's plenty of them about.

Also, there is a lovely piece by Medtner (Op1 No 1) that has a triple polyrhythm (two in one hand and a third in the other). Rachfan has a recording of it posted in the Audition room which is well worth giving a listen.

[werq34ac]

There's plenty of them about.

Also, there is a lovely piece by Medtner (Op1 No 1) that has a triple polyrhythm (two in one hand and a third in the other). Rachfan has a recording of it posted in the Audition room which is well worth giving a listen.

Those aren't bad. That's just a matter of feeling the measure in 3 and 2 at the same time. Alborada del Gracioso has worse.
3 over 2 in one hand I can do if it's not ridiculously fast (I'm pretty sure Rach etude 39/5 has one of those). Now 3 over 4 in one hand, then I'm in trouble.