Question for the more experienced virtuoso ;)

[outin]

Yes, I find it rather interesting what people do or don't do intuitively though.. The process of joining hands can be pretty well refined to make sure all this stuff happens properly, and you learn to coordinate movements rather than just play notes together.. So the HS practice does it's job and sticks.

Personally I find it more useful and faster to start hands together and then add HS as much as necessary and alternating between them. But I am sure that this depends on how the brain is wired and what the difficulties are in the piece. I am right handed but I have noticed that if necessary I can do most tasks almost as well with the left. My father is completely 2-handed. I think this might also affect the way I like to study, because I don't see my left hand as "weaker". Actually most problems I have are in the right hand...

[hhopkinson1]

Returning to the original topic..

I'd like to query this..

"a virtuoso fluency (a suitable standard)"

Because I don't really consider fluent playing to be virtuosic, there's a bit more to it..

Really I only put the suitable standard to not sound like a pretentious something or other. Because you criticised my modesty, I shall tell the truth. My "virtuoso fluency" could give Barenboim a run for his money. Although for how long I monotonously practiced that piece ( the ballade), it should !

[hhopkinson1]

On the contrary, I do agree with you that yes, there is a substantial difference (about 3-5 years) between fluency and virtuosity. However, it doesn't take a prodigy to work that out does it ?

[ajspiano]

..so you think that you personally are both a virtuoso and prodigy as a result if having managed to learn one ballade by age 15?

...but in the same breath, you have not studied any of the Chopin etudes and are unable to judge their difficulty against your own abilty?

...

Perhaps you might turn the lights out, its less dangerous.

[hhopkinson1]

..so you think that you personally are both a virtuoso and prodigy as a result if having managed to learn one ballade by age 15?

...but in the same breath, you have not studied any of the Chopin etudes and are unable to judge their difficulty against your own abilty?

...

Perhaps you might turn the lights out, its less dangerous.



I think you are twisting the words there massively. Firstly, you do not know what I study. Secondly, I am not unable to judge their ability, I was merely asking an outsiders opinion (maybe one that is more experienced than me with age). MOST SIGNIFICANTLY, I DO NOT THiNk I AM A PRODIGY! A merely play for enjoyment, anything else is extra. Gosh, how old are you acting? " perhaps you might turn the lights out, it is less dangerous HA

[perprocrastinate]

Someone turn the air on, it's getting hot in here.

[ajspiano]

Its implied, and if you don't want to sound arrogant you should choose your words more carefully.

However, are the etudes considerably harder.

If you knew, you'd know that they're different for everyone and an outsiders opinion is likely not going to be that much help - especially someone who hasnt seen you play and can not offer in person advice.

Nonetheless, a good starting point to break into the etudes right?

Therefore, you haven't studied any others.

My "virtuoso fluency" could give Barenboim a run for his money.

Implies both that you think art is a competition and that you have virtuosic ability, without an understanding of what virtuosity is.

However, it doesn't take a prodigy to work that out does it ?

Maybe I twisted this one a little..  but it kind of does suggest that's how you see yourself.

......

People will read into what you say and infer meaning that isn't necessarily there. This is part of life. Humans use double speak, they deliberately hide their meanings or say things in a jovial manner that they do actually believe/mean. - particularly relevant to you in this instance because teenagers are stereo-typically arrogant. If you don't want that kind of thing to happen use your words in a more concise manner.

....

That aside I'm really not interested in further arguing about it. You are right, I can't possibly know where you are at musically via the internet. My apologies for the latter comment in my previous post..

I'd much rather talk about the music found in the etude.

[davidjosepha]

perhaps you might turn the lights out, it is less dangerous HA

Ah, I see how you managed to flip that comment on its head! Very clever of you

[ajspiano]

Ah, I see how you managed to flip that comment on its head! Very clever of you

I'd suggest a better alternative myself, but I can't think of any "you're so old and self important" songs.

[chopin2015]

If you love the etude, you will be able to put the time and energy into it and do well, perhaps tackling it, they need a good tackling here and there. I say go for it. I play ballade no 1 too, but that still does not put me at a place where I can sit down and learn any piece I want and meet a certain expectancy. There is so much music out there. A variety is good but don't spread yourself too thin. An etude of Chopin is a good choice though, will help your Chopin collection

[j_menz]

Although for how long I monotonously practiced that piece ( the ballade), it should !

Somehow, this is the bit that bothers me the most. 

[j_menz]

I can't think of any "you're so old and self important" songs.

Don't you have a collection of them, on Bakelite 78s, amongst your teapots? 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Look dude, just go for it.

[ajspiano]

Somehow, this is the bit that bothers me the most. 

I was actually going to have a dig at that in the 14 or so far ruder replies I decided not to post..

In the end I gave him the benefit of the doubt, assuming that its just a way of saying "I practiced it A LOT"

[chopin2015]

What, you guys think you could play the ballade and pass all technical challenges and express emotion and skip all the slow deliberate practice? I feel really crappy now. It took me a lot of practice as well. And I am still forced to practice it sometimes. Infact, once you play a piece, what? You stop practicing it and there is nothing else to learn about the piece? I feel like if you were a good pianist you could play the same thing many times and learn something new each time. Although monotonously is the opposite of what I am trying to say here. Love and Peace P.S I am going to learn some Beethoven! WOOO!

[ajspiano]

Don't you have a collection of them, on Bakelite 78s, amongst your teapots? 

Tea is forever.

78's began their decent when compact discs were released. 5 years before I was born.

I guess I need a young and self important song. I'll have to listen to some rap.

[ajspiano]

What, you guys think you could play the ballade and pass all technical challenges and express emotion and skip all the slow deliberate practice..

Thats just it though right..  its deliberate, thoughtful, engaging. Its not monotonous at all - as you obviously realise.

I also do a pretty limited amount of what I would call slow practice in regard to everything..  but there's no way I can explain that here, or expect it of someone else without very close supervision.

[chopin2015]

Yeah, there are many ways to limit slow practice, but is not always good. Even ajspiano has to do -even if it is a limited amount of- slow practice I recommend doing some slow practice of fast pieces/sections to keep them clean.

[ajspiano]

Yeah, there are many ways to limit slow practice, but is not always good. Even ajspiano has to do -even if it is a limited amount of- slow practice I recommend doing some slow practice of fast pieces/sections to keep them clean.

Trouble being that it can be done in a way that is either really useful, or pretty damaging.

[j_menz]

78's began their decent when compact discs were released. 5 years before I was born.

And here I was thinking it was the advent of vinyl that did them in. 

I'll have to listen to some crap.

Fixed your spelling.

[ajspiano]

And here I was thinking it was the advent of vinyl that did them in. 

Proved my age.

Fixed your spelling.

Thanks.

[chopin2015]

Trouble being that it can be done in a way that is either really useful, or pretty damaging.

So true. Do you have any examples? I do slow practice every day. The times when it is bad, is when I learn bad fingering and is impossible to get faster.

[j_menz]

Proved my age.

LOL, what age does an episode of senility prove?

[ajspiano]

So true. Do you have any examples?

One aspect...

At speed, many (if not all) figures will required an overall arm motion or pattern along side individual finger strikes.

BASIC (very loose open to interpretation, and can be so small its practically invisible) rule, as the fingers (roughly) run from 5 to 1 - the forearm will push in and over.. then out and under (as you go back to the 5th)..   easiest way to fiddle with this is to go play RH, 54321, GFEDC. Then repeat it over and over, making it so that the arm performs a never ending fluent circle.

it sort of reverses (enormously difficult to put in words) when its in the opposite direction, as in 12345, cdefg.

These circles are COMPULSORY at speed if you are to remain free of tension over a period of time. They are not required in the same way at slow speed. If you play slow without doing them you will learn to create tension at speed, and you will have to unlearn bad motion.

These pattern also exist fluently during passes of the thumb and during large lateral displacements of the arm. Real pregnant dog to coordinate when you do it slowly because its so easy to stop moving on each note when you need to keep a sense of "flow" through out the passage.

..I really can't do better than that without looking at an exact example...   when you get this stuff right, speed, even playing, dynamic control becomes much easier.

Seriously, if you understand what I'm on about and can make it work for you without a visual demo, you win at piano.

*can't possibly be done if you're wrist is not supple. Really difficult to have a loose supple wrist if you don't do this. Catch 22.

**Chang's chord attack and parallel sets teach this if you do them right.

*** Also gets effected significantly by the degree of rotation used at the transition to each finger, as each finger needs to get the right amount of arm support, and if you get that wrong it feels kind of unsupported and uncomfortable. Which is possibly why bernhard uses repeated note groups... as opposed to just parallel sets.

[ajspiano]

[continued]

Playing sets of chords, using CDEFG, in succession.

CD
DE
EF
FG

fingers..
12
23
34
45

You will feel that your arm changes angle very slightly as you go through each chord (well, at least you should if you pay close attention and ensure each subsequent chord is comfortable), this is what I mean by degree of rotation. It is another aspect of the overal flowing motion.

Edit:
Lastly, this has nothing to do with me trying to define the "perfect" motion, and everything to do with how to go about finding your own perfect motion.

[chopin2015]

Thanks aj! I do notice that playing some new things fast-tenses my arm for a while and I have to play through that. It is just normal. No 1. reason I cannot solo much in jazz is because I do not practice it, and so I do not get as fast as I want to be. Thanks again!

[ajspiano]

Thanks aj! I do notice that playing some new things fast-tenses my arm for a while and I have to play through that. It is just normal. No 1. reason I cannot solo much in jazz is because I do not practice it, and so I do not get as fast as I want to be. Thanks again!

Feeling tension when you attempt to play something new quickly is certainly normal. Playing through it isn't required - it can be fixed straight away with conscious thought and awareness relating to the music and your body.

[chopin2015]

That is how you play through it!

[ajspiano]

That is how you play through it!

Actually..  some people just go at it forever and ever and ever and ever, with a firm belief that its just really really difficult and that they a not yet physically strong enough...

Infact, that's what some teachers told them to do..  Don't think. Hold your arms still. Lift your fingers high (so you can feel the pain I imagine). Play it over and over everyday till your muscles grow.

[chopin2015]

I dunno about the whole raising my fingers high. Seems too far for comfort. And I was once told building muscle goes with developing dexterity but not for speed.

[hhopkinson1]

Thats just it though right..  its deliberate, thoughtful, engaging. Its not monotonous at all - as you obviously realise.

I also do a pretty limited amount of what I would call slow practice in regard to everything..  but there's no way I can explain that here, or expect it of someone else without very close supervision.

When using the word monotonous, I meant that The ballade could be simultaneously challenging and infuriating. However, the montony was what made the piece interesting. Also, the challenge of learning a piece such as this is what I like about any challenging piece. It is startling me intellectually as a Chopin piece should, right?

[werq34ac]

When using the word monotonous, I meant that The ballade could be simultaneously challenging and infuriating. However, the montony was what made the piece interesting. Also, the challenge of learning a piece such as this is what I like about any challenging piece. It is startling me intellectually as a Chopin piece should, right?

It should startle you more emotionally than intellectually. After all, music is a form of expression rather than thought, even if it does take thought to make music.


You can never finish practicing a piece. There's always something to be improved. ESPECIALLY a Chopin Ballade. You can turn that piece inside out and still not find everything there is to find.


Anyone who can give Barenboim for the money is a well-recorded artist. Are you a well recorded artist? I'm sorry, did you say you were modest?


Seriously, any of the ballades (with the exception of POSSIBLY the 3rd ballade vs. Winter Wind or Thirds or Chromatic) are significantly more difficult than any of the etudes. There's just more music in the ballades (not that the etudes don't have music).

Virtuoso standard my hindquarters. A true virtuoso does not call it virtuosity.