Question for the more experienced virtuoso ;)

[hhopkinson1]

Hi, I have just seen the manuscript for chopin's étude no 25 opus 1 and having listened to it, it seems rather daunting. I have just finished studying chopin's nocturne no.20 in c sharp minor and can play with a virtuoso fluency (a suitable standard). I can also play ballade no 1 in g minor. However, are the etudes considerably harder.
Much gratitude,
Hardy Hopkinson ( grade 8 ).

[perprocrastinate]

I am nowhere close to being a virtuoso (quite at the opposite end of the spectrum), but I can infer that if you can play Chopin's Ballade No. 1, the etudes will be manageable (or a complete walk in the park).

I believe that Op. 25, No. 1 is one of the easier ones, velocity-wise. Voicing the melody is a different thing though. I would probably struggle with it.

[scherzo123]

I am nowhere close to being a virtuoso (quite at the opposite end of the spectrum), but I can infer that if you can play Chopin's Ballade No. 1, the etudes will be manageable (or a complete walk in the park).

I believe that Op. 25, No. 1 is one of the easier ones, velocity-wise. Voicing the melody is a different thing though. I would probably struggle with it.

+1

[hhopkinson1]

Okay thank you, I think I shall go ahead with it.

[ajspiano]

25/1 is one of the easier ones. If you struggle with it then you likely need to go figure out what "supinating arm circles" are and work on that.

As far as voicing the melody, you would do well to practice a very dynamic structural version of the piece. That is, play only the melody note and the accompanying bass note - leave out all the small notes in between, this must of course be done with the fingering as if you were playing the whole thing, and all the emotion you can muster.

....

The etudes are obviously shorter than the ballade and less musically taxing. They are designed to push a technical element to the limit, to breaking point if you like. They are relentless, so they will force you to really clean up any deficiencies. I don't think you'll find them a walk in the park if you pursue a virtuosic version (at least not the big ones... Ie. 10/1 10/2 25/6 25/10 25/11...   But if your ballade is to a high standard they will certainly not be beyond you.

[hhopkinson1]

Yes, it seems it is controversially the easiest Chopin étude around. Nonetheless, a good starting point to break into the etudes right? So it seems there is more to the piece than I originally pondered? Also, I would say that my ballade is up to a good standard. I won a Chopin competition with it back in June this year - amazing piece to play, although as you progress quite demanding both physically and mentally.
Thank you for your advice,

[ajspiano]

It would be one of the acceptable "first etudes"..  there are many though.

You may find this helpful too, as a time saver for figuring out the poly-rhythms (save you doing it yourself, though I suspect you wouldn't have any trouble  )

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=10974.msg114366#msg114366

So it seems there is more to the piece than I originally pondered?

There is always more to a piece than one originally ponders..  even if its a grade 1 piece and you can play the transcendental etudes.

[hhopkinson1]

Ha thanks, I like your last comment

[ajspiano]

Ha thanks, I like your last comment

Sometimes I feel like if I actually gave someone ALL the information I could come up with on a low grade piece, it would make it feel like a chopin etude, and that a chopin etude would feel like mount everest - with a 20kg pack, and a 1 hour time limit.

[j_menz]

If you can play Chopin's Ballade No1 to any degree of proficiency, I find it quite incredible that you cannot work out whether this etude is going to be either doable or useful for you.  Just have a look at it for heavens sake!

[j_menz]

If I actually gave someone ALL the information I could come up with on a low grade piece...

They'd be in therapy for years. 

[ajspiano]

If you can play Chopin's Ballade No1 to any degree of proficiency, I find it quite incredible that you cannot work out whether this etude is going to be either doable or useful for you.  Just have a look at it for heavens sake!

OP is 15, and admits to tackling the ballade too early..  still, valid point.

They'd be in therapy for years.

So would I probably, and I'd be able to pay for it with the income from the obscene number of lessons it would require.

Either that or the student would've assaulted me out of frustration.

[49410enrique]

If you can play Chopin's Ballade No1 to any degree of proficiency, I find it quite incredible that you cannot work out whether this etude is going to be either doable or useful for you.  Just have a look at it for heavens sake!

perhaps we need it's rank?
i'd put it somewhere between admiral ackbar



and admiral general aladeen

[davidjosepha]

perhaps we need it's rank?
i'd put it somewhere between admiral ackbar

and admiral general aladeen

Excuse me where does fantaisie impromptu fit on this I played it last year and i want to know if I'm ready for

[j_menz]

So would I probably, and I'd be able to pay for it with the income from the obscene number of lessons it would require.

Either that or the student would've assaulted me out of frustration.

Q: How long have you been learning piano?

A: 10 years

Q: So what do you play?

A: Mary had a little lamb.

Q: What grade is that?

A: First, but I play it really really well, and can tell you things about it that will make your head spin.

[j_menz]

Excuse me where does fantaisie impromptu fit on this

It doesn't. It's in a different key so it has a different scale. 

[ajspiano]

Q: How long have you been learning piano?

A: 10 years

Q: So what do you play?

A: Mary had a little lamb.

Q: What grade is that?

A: First, but I play it really really well, and can tell you things about it that will make your head spin.

LOL - That may be taking it a touch too far.. 

Still, probably not a bad piece for teaching some reharmonising and how to write variations.

In writing my previous comment I was rather thinking of people who feel that because they can play a grade 6/7/8 piece there is no value in learning easier repertoire, as if they've mastered all lower grade material spontaneously.

[49410enrique]

It doesn't. It's in a different key so it has a different scale.  

that's 'full scale' right?

[davidjosepha]

It doesn't. It's in a different key so it has a different scale. 

oh, is that why a level 8 piece in C major is easier than a level 8 piece in F-sharp major? Sorta like metric versus imperial?

Insert rach_forever joke about how Bach is measured in Celsius and everything else is Kelvin so a level 8 Bach is a level 281 anything else

[chopin2015]

Insert rach_forever joke about how Bach is measured in Celsius and everything else is Kelvin so a level 8 Bach is a level 281 anything else

LOL invention no. 4 took me longer to play than Winter wind etude to memorize(almost to tempo now *grunts*)! So it's kind of true. Also took me long because I hated it and had to come up with fingerings on my own.

[j_menz]

oh, is that why a level 8 piece in C major is easier than a level 8 piece in F-sharp major? Sorta like metric versus imperial?

Insert rach_forever joke about how Bach is measured in Celsius and everything else is Kelvin so a level 8 Bach is a level 281 anything else

*** Notes Kelvin and Celsius are both metric and quietly hopes r_f doesn't fall into that trap. 

[chopin2015]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lissajous_animation.gif

[ajspiano]

Might I suggest we measure one in inches, and another in grams.

[davidjosepha]

*** Notes Kelvin and Celsius are both metric and quietly hopes r_f doesn't fall into that trap. 

Yes, I know. I am also aware that Bach is not a key I was switching topics slightly for the sake of a r_f joke

[j_menz]

For the truly difficult, I use hands.

As in "How many hands would I need to actually play this comfortably?"  John Cage's Etudes Boreales, say, ranks 5 hands.  It also ranks zero ears on my listenability scale.

[davidjosepha]

For the truly difficult, I use hands.

As in "How many hands would I need to actually play this comfortably?"  John Cage's Etudes Boreales, say, ranks 5 hands.  It also ranks zero ears on my listenability scale.

Whereas for some composers, you literally need at least 4 hands in order to play the chords they write...yet another reason to hate Rach prelude 3/2

[ajspiano]

Whereas for some composers, you literally need at least 4 hands in order to play the chords they write...yet another reason to hate Rach prelude 3/2

Rachmaninoff had big hands. -

..

then there's godowsky. Bastard. Ranks most Chopin etudes 1 hand.

[j_menz]

then there's godowsky. Bastard. Ranks most Chopin etudes 1 hand.

How rude, and after he was so kind as to produce two hand versions of them, too. 

[ajspiano]

Returning to the original topic..

I'd like to query this..

"a virtuoso fluency (a suitable standard)"

Because I don't really consider fluent playing to be virtuosic, there's a bit more to it..

[j_menz]

Returning to the original topic..

I'd like to query this..

"a virtuoso fluency (a suitable standard)"

Because I don't really consider fluent playing to be virtuosic, there's a bit more to it..

Oh AJ, surely you know it means "I can play all the right notes, in the right order, in time with a metronome set at something like the indicated mark. And, wait for it, I use the pedal a bit, and do legato, and make some of the notes louder and softer..."

[ajspiano]

sigh...

play all the right notes, in the right order
in time with a metronome set at something like the indicated mark
use the pedal a bit
do legato
and make some of the notes louder and softer...

.....

Understandable, its pretty much all my piano teacher ever taught me.

*told me to do. Honestly not sure if she taught it or I just picked it up on my own.

[j_menz]

Understandable, its pretty much all my piano teacher ever taught me.

*told me to do. Honestly not sure if she taught it or I just picked it up on my own.

I guess I was lucky. None of my teachers ever dealt with much of that. They seemed more interested in teaching me to play music.

[davidjosepha]

Rachmaninoff had big hands. -

..

then there's godowsky. Bastard. Ranks most Chopin etudes 1 hand.

I've seen that video, very funny (despite the awful music )

And yes, I was thinking of mentioning Godowsky, but decided to make a Rachmaninoff joke instead. I'm not impressed watching someone play the Chopin etudes. I mean, it's great and obviously takes a ton of work, but I understand how it happened. There's nothing supernatural about it to me, just hours and hours of practice. The Godowsky...those are supernatural to watch played

[ajspiano]

They seemed more interested in teaching me to play music

I don't think my teacher was terrible - she consistently produced decent results, but there was no real explaining or help that would allow me to work on my own. My formal piano lessons were basically..

1. Scales (HT 4 octaves)
 - put "crosses" on the bad ones (on practice sheet), play them more times per day
2. Supervised reading of pieces.
3. Play the piece "x" times per day.
4. Play it at this speed with metronome, steadily increase week by week from super slow to acceptable.
5. Do this exact dynamic at this place, creative choice is not allowed.
6. Memorise this information (general knowledge, terms and signs - by copying it out)
7. Theory from a book with no connection to any music we were playing, no explanations - just do exactly as it says.
8. Absolutely no technical help at all, or practice instruction to resolve technical issues.

[j_menz]

I don't think my teacher was terrible

I'd have quit in week 3.

[ajspiano]

I'd have quit in week 3.

Well you know, 5 yrs old..  parents non musicians.. still made progress so must be decent teacher..

really more of a bang you're head against the wall till you figure it out on your own or quit approach though right? I think the main function that was provided was level appropriate repertoire selection..  But then, progressing through AMEB grades makes that kind of straight forward.

Sometimes I wonder how many teachers would go out of business if students were capable of judging the value of their lessons..

I could add some pretty massive errors in the approach to my original teachings.. but you're knowledge of bach and appropriate approach to bach may mean that it leaves you in tears.

[j_menz]

Sometimes I wonder how many teachers would go out of business if students were capable of judging the value of their lessons..

I started when I was older, about 13. My parents were supportive, but really didn't care much if I carried on or quit. So I guess I was always in that position. The later teachers I had, I was paying, so I definitely was.

I could add some pretty massive errors in the approach to my original teachings.. but you're knowledge of bach and appropriate approach to bach may mean that it leaves you in tears.

Haha, If I cried every time Bach was massacred, either in the teaching or the playing, I'd dehydrate.

[davidjosepha]

Haha, If I cried every time Bach was massacred, either in the teaching or the playing, I'd dehydrate.

Certainly don't listen to me play it! I don't think you'd be able to hold back the tears...the sad thing is, I like Bach + = ?

[j_menz]

+ = ?

Learning opportunity.

[ajspiano]

I started when I was older, about 13. My parents were supportive, but really didn't care much if I carried on or quit. So I guess I was always in that position. The later teachers I had, I was paying, so I definitely was.

Well my parents were supportive, and actually good school teachers themselves.. but they didn't know the good from the bad as far as approaches to music. I pretty much took total control over my own learning around 13-14, since my teacher was starting to drive me a little mad by that point and I had stopped doing what she said (because it didn't really work that well any more)

Kind of ran into a wall with her when I brought chang's book to a lesson and having never heard of it she dismissed it within about 3.5 seconds. Even if it had been worthless I'd have appreciated a proper look and opinion on it.

Haha, If I cried every time Bach was massacred, either in the teaching or the playing, I'd dehydrate.

I learnt the petzold minuet in G. Then, YEARS later, I was given the F minor P+F from book 2. No mention of counterpoint its entire study, just stock standard LH, RH, TOG.

...

What I find particularly depressing about it all though is that this kind of experience is obviously common. Now years later, there are the odd adult's who stopped, having never made significant progress. They then call me enquiring about lessons and when they find out I don't use that approach in lessons (which they were subjected to themselves) they take their kids/grandkids elsewhere because they think that is the "correct" approach to piano lessons.....

 

[j_menz]

I learnt the petzold minuet in G. Then, YEARS later, I was given the F minor P+F from book 2. No mention of counterpoint its entire study, just stock standard LH, RH, TOG.

Interestingly, none of my teachers ever tried to get me to do HS. Maybe they just knew I'd have had to kill them.

What I find particularly depressing about it all though is that this kind of experience is obviously common. Now years later, there are the odd adult's who stopped, having never made significant progress. They then call me enquiring about lessons and when they find out I don't use that approach in lessons (which they were subjected to themselves) they take their kids/grandkids elsewhere because they think that is the "correct" approach to piano lessons.....

 

Which obviously worked so well for them.  I bet they even hated it, too. Some people are just plain nuts.

[ajspiano]

Interestingly, none of my teachers ever tried to get me to do HS. Maybe they just knew I'd have had to kill them.

Which obviously worked so well for them.  I bet they even hated it, too. Some people are just plain nuts.

Society has a relentless insistence that "talent" is the only the only relevant factor in artistic pursuits.

That no HS thing baffles me a bit though, not for you personally but from a teaching perspective.. seems like it would foster hand interdepenance to some degree. Though it would depend on the individuals thought process ..just seems so difficult to teach complex independent coordinations that way if problems should arise in that area - ...but then, in the same breath - plenty of people seem to use HS in a less than brilliant way.. or for that matter, just don't point out or teach specific HT coordinations..

[j_menz]

That no HS thing baffles me a bit though, not for you personally but from a teaching perspective.. seems like it would foster hand interdepenance to some degree. Though it would depend on the individuals thought process ..just seems so difficult to teach complex independent coordinations that way if problems should arise in that area - ...but then, in the same breath - plenty of people seem to use HS in a less than brilliant way.. or for that matter, just don't point out or teach specific HT coordinations..

Actually I'd never thought about it that way. Always seemed to me to require and foster greater independence. The HS thing just seemed a waste of time, since you're gonna have to put them together at some stage.

I do understand that lots of people find it useful, so maybe my brain just works in an odd way.

[ajspiano]

Actually I'd never thought about it that way. Always seemed to me to require and foster greater independence. The HS thing just seemed a waste of time, since you're gonna have to put them together at some stage.

I do understand that lots of people find it useful, so maybe my brain just works in an odd way.

Yes, obviously wasnt a big deal for you.. I wouldnt suggest you think about this too much (nor anyone else that can play the passage fine)..  but as an example..

Most people have a tendancy to operate their hands in sync, ie. when LH goes forward, so does RH..  when RH pronates, so does LH..  etc. etc.

So..  take this passage, rev etude.



The square brackets show the physical groupings (or paralell sets), as opposed to the musical ones. Physically, the hands are offset by 1 semiquaver - Not very many people would execute it in that manner if they dove into HT, they'd just group everything in sync.

Learning to coordinate it that way leads to it being a boatload more comfortable, speedy and musical though. Or for a more physical point, it ensures that the thumb-pass/hand position change is done correctly - no tense scrunching of the hand.

*clearly I'm in the mood to throw out opinions that will be disagreeable today

** guarantee this will be misunderstood without an actual demonstration.

[outin]

That no HS thing baffles me a bit though, not for you personally but from a teaching perspective.. seems like it would foster hand interdepenance to some degree. Though it would depend on the individuals thought process ..just seems so difficult to teach complex independent coordinations that way if problems should arise in that area - ...but then, in the same breath - plenty of people seem to use HS in a less than brilliant way.. or for that matter, just don't point out or teach specific HT coordinations..

I had this problem with HS practice: I did it and I could learn the movements easier that way but it didn't help much with my playing HT. I think it is because of my scoliosis. Every time I put the hands together my posture and arm position completely changed and I had to learn the hand movements again in a different way. So I finally figured that the only useful way to practice hands separately is by having the other hand also on the keyboard even though still. I read from some early book that you should keep the other hand neatly on your lap...

[ajspiano]

I had this problem with HS practice: I did it and I could learn the movements easier that way but it didn't help much with my playing HT.

seems likely if there is no HT reference, everything has to be relevant to the whole. I find its pretty easy also to think that you are putting your hands together in a way that makes sense and actually it doesn't.

The HT coordination of taubman's vids discuss this a bit.. 

People program the HS into their brains as if two completely different pieces of music, then they try to play them at the same time, without building HT cues..  without creating the sense of togetherness.. which leads to all sorts of difficulties.

Rather than building a HT piece of music, and refining certain elements with a HS isolated phrase.

[outin]

seems likely if there is no HT reference, everything has to be relevant to the whole. I find its pretty easy also to think that you are putting your hands together in a way that makes sense and actually it doesn't.

The HT coordination of taubman's vids discuss this a bit.. 

People program the HS into their brains as if two completely different pieces of music, then they try to play them at the same time, without building HT cues..  without creating the sense of togetherness.. which leads to all sorts of difficulties.

Rather than building a HT piece of music, and refining certain elements with a HS isolated phrase.

I guess for me it was more a physical issue than a brain issue. I would never try to learn the hands separately and then just play them together, because I believe it is completely impossible! At least for me... I need what I think of mental check points where my hands coordinate the rhythm or passage work together. Sometimes several on one bar.

[ajspiano]

I guess for me it was more a physical issue than a brain issue. I would never try to learn the hands separately and then just play them together, because I believe it is completely impossible! At least for me... I need what I think of mental check points where my hands coordinate the rhythm or passage work together. Sometimes several on one bar.

That's what I meant by HT cues, and sense of togetherness. It creates a remembered pattern of motion that exists between the hands, rather than attempting to do 2 things at once.

[outin]

That's what I meant by HT cues, and sense of togetherness. It creates a remembered pattern of motion that exists between the hands, rather than attempting to do 2 things at once.

I would think this is something that has to be understood from the beginning if one is to have any hope of learning to play the piano 

[ajspiano]

I would think this is something that has to be understood from the beginning if one is to have any hope of learning to play the piano 

Yes, I find it rather interesting what people do or don't do intuitively though.. The process of joining hands can be pretty well refined to make sure all this stuff happens properly, and you learn to coordinate movements rather than just play notes together.. So the HS practice does it's job and sticks.