So why do we need God?

[pianowelsh]

Hi again Chopiabin Its interesting what you say but i dont quite see what you mean about self-denial. As a christian i live a very forfilled life. But perhaps we mean different things by self denial - could you clarify?
I cant quite agree with you on the lineage of God thing though. God doesnt have a beginning or an end so was therefore never subject to anyone and will never be superceeded by anyone so consequencially is as important today as ever. Was that what you meant?

[Siberian Husky]

I don't blame you, because ignorance pisses God off too.  In the Bible, He invites us to scrutinize Scripture, hold it under a microscope, and to test it.  Perhaps you should do more of that.  I'm certain that you (or anyone) will be able to find fault with Christians--followers of the Most High God.  So if, after reading the Bible, you still have a problem with God, take it up with Him.  He won't mind.  Go ahead and unlease Your anger on Him.  If GOD is the one who "pisses you off", let him know.  I'll be looking forward to hearing about this conversation with God that you will have. 

Janice..what is the Christian overall opinion on Catholics?

[janice]

Janice..what is the Christian overall opinion on Catholics?
Do you mean Catholic people or Catholic doctrine?  I assume that you mean Catholic doctrine, because Christians are admonished to love all people.  The Catholic doctrine, sorry to say, is in conflict with what Jesus taught.  Jesus taught salvation is thru faith ALONE, whereas the Catholic doctrine has set up a system of "good works=salvation".  But if you think about it logically, just WHEN will one know that they have "earned their salvation"?  The answer is: you can't!!  But Jesus preached faith in him alone.  That's pretty cut & dried.  Also, take a look at confession.  The Bible says that there is "one mediator between God and man, that is the man Christ Jesus."  Because of Jesus, we can now approach God personally.  We no longer need a human intercessor, because Jesus IS the mediator between God and man.  Catholics pray to Mary and to other saints.  This is not necessary.  Mary was a good woman and she is honored because she is Jesus' mother, but that's all she is. Period. Personally, I NEVER even think about Mary.  Even Mary herself needed a Savior.  She was a sinner just like you & me.  If anyone wants to dispute this, I suggest reading the Bible yourself!  A priest is not needed to "interpret" Scripture.  That is the work of the Holy Spirit.  I will stop my rant here!  Did I adequately answer your question?  I wasn't exactly clear on what you meant, sorry!

[Siberian Husky]

Yeah i knew there was a difference in the whole Mary-Saints/Jesus thing..just couldnt grasp it completely...the reason why i ask..is well..according to my family, i too am supposed to follow the Catholic Doctrine belief, baptised catholic, went to sunday school for studies for years when i was a child, even did my first communion...couple years ago i wiped my @$$ with religion all together ( no offense)..because ever since i was a little boy, it just disturbed me in the back of mind that "God had plans for me."..or that everything was an act of god to a degree...and that God created earth and its inhabitants...because this earth is full of extraordinary elements that i believe not even a God himself as an individual, regardless of his quality of being, should be given credit for...whether they be tangible or not...i feel rediculous guidelining my life according to scriptures and readings that date back generations...i solely see religion as a method to sustain peace in co-existing human beings, which in my opinion does its job very well for the most part, acting as a cohesive bond allowing humans a common ground to develope a more intwinable social lubicance and keep order,..but i would give anything to see a world without religion (completely knowing that we as human beings are gifted with the abilityb to reason and have the capacity of intuition, making it somewhat innevitable that we think beyond our own and ponder outside, possibly more hiigher beings)...i believe that so much dispositional diversity is refrained from being reflected upon in the individual due to religion..whether it be refrainment from acting in such a manner that would dissapoint your religious beliefs...or "planting" the religious seed at an early, and impressionable, age restricting one's self formulated ponderings to manifest...im what people call agnostic, although at times i am athiest and dont believe in any god, i still am in conclusive termoil about WHAT exactly my beliefs are..and yes, sometimes it does bother me to the extent in which i lose sleep...but i wouldnt have it any other way, because of my refrainment from following a sole religion and living a life of predictability  to the degree of having limitations in which i havnt made for myself...i see religion as "an easy way out"..as far as knowing one's spiritual status...im probably rambling on...

but like i said early...religion was a beautiful idea untill it got turned into a horrible belief


because people dont wage wars over ideas

[Floristan]

..but i would give anything to see a world without religion (completely knowing that we as human beings are gifted with the abilityb to reason and have the capacity of intuition, making it somewhat innevitable that we think beyond our own and ponder outside, possibly more hiigher beings)...i believe that so much dispositional diversity is refrained from being reflected upon in the individual due to religion..whether it be refrainment from acting in such a manner that would dissapoint your religious beliefs...or "planting" the religious seed at an early, and impressionable, age restricting one's self formulated ponderings to manifest...im what people call agnostic, although at times i am athiest and dont believe in any god, i still am in conclusive termoil about WHAT exactly my beliefs are..and yes, sometimes it does bother me to the extent in which i lose sleep...but i wouldnt have it any other way, because of my refrainment from following a sole religion and living a life of predictability to the degree of having limitations in which i havnt made for myself...i see religion as "an easy way out"..as far as knowing one's spiritual status...im probably rambling on...

but like i said early...religion was a beautiful idea untill it got turned into a horrible belief


because people dont wage wars over ideas

SH--

You made me think of this John Lennon song, one of my favorites:

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

 

[pianonut]

ok. so i'm thread hopping.  there have been many world governments, but they never brought peace the way the people thought it would be.  it ended up being a dictator, where everyone decided to go their own way again.   personally, i think peace starts in the home.  in china (communist) you do have a certain peace, but at the expense of freedom.  in this country we have freedom to speak as we think, to attend church or not attend, so many freedoms.  if we teach our children (or hold ourselves to ) values then at least we have the satisfaction that in some small way we make a difference to peace.  but, back to the question 'why do we need God.'  probably the biggest reason is to maintain peace.  His ominicence is so great that at any moment he can crush our enemies if he wants to.  He can raise a mountain (government) and then lower it at any time.  His power is seen everywhere in everything.  there is nothing that is made that doesn't have the spark of his touch.  our creativity, things that we consider 'chance' sometimes (due to doubt).  imagine that when He fully reveals Himself, we will see something more than an angry God who seems in the OT to dislike people doing what pleases them.

 ps  in reading the scriptures about the peoples who were destroyed, they were often sacrificing their own children to Molech.  since we are a creation of God, we (as clay) can't tell our Maker that he sinned to ask Israel to wipe out people who worshipped other gods.  especially when they all (at various points in ot) were taught the same thing.  in the garden of eden, God taught adam and eve.  then people forgot.  prophets would try to tell them to change, but they refused.  then it all started over with Noah (who was preaching righteousness to people for 300 years or so).  yes, i hear laughing at how someone could live 300+ years, but i believe this.  i believe God made us originally to be quite different (He limited our life span later) in terms of how long we could live.  He's God. He can do anything He says.  Superstitious. How can you disprove it?  You weren't born then.  Prove it? faith is believing things that we physically cannot really understand.  we can't explain it.

God was very patient even with Pharoah.  he kept simply asking him 'let my people go' to worship.  Pharoah's heart was continually hardened because he sought physical answers to explain miracles.  he always thought his magicians could do exactly what God did.  that's science at it's worst (though i don't think it's wrong for people to be scientific at all).  you can prove many things.  but one thing you can't prove is SPIRIT.  it is like electricity.  you can't see it, but you can feel it.  You can feel when someone isn't right in the head (crazy) and when someone has a spirit of discernment.  how can you know.  Christians know by comparing what someone says with God's word.  Is the person swearing in almost every sentence that they speak (sometimes taking up the whole sentence)?  does this teach anything or edify anyone?  no one does that here --but i'm talking about someone demon possessed.  you can discern a spirit of evil and a spirit of good.  this isn't really something scientists (that i know of) have uncovered.  what makes something good or evil.  But, if God knows something is evil and He destroys it...who are we to tell Him?

[lostinidlewonder]

Janice..what is the Christian overall opinion on Catholics?

Im not janice but I have a few things to say about it.

When Christianity came into prominence after Christ rose, the Roman authorities of course had to have a say as in how Christianity should be practiced. The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for changes in the Christian faith, like changing Saturday worship(the 7th day) to a Sunday which is accepted in most christian denominations except the 7th Day adventists for one. Also calling the priests "father" which goes against Gods word which says that he is the only father. The Catholic Church pushes this blasphemy further by saying that one cannot be forgiven of their sin just by asking god, you must go through a catholic priest during confession. This goes again the very nature of Christianity where they believe it is God alone who has the power to fogive sin.

The Catholic church also, during the Crusades, killed a great deal of Christian's who did not worship under the Catholic standard, this caused millions and millions of christian deaths.

The Catholic Church also had a lot of censorship on the bible, taking passages out of the actual bible which reffered to worship and power given to man over worship, also the Apocrypha, books kept from the public.

The Catholic church also worship idols and ancestor worship (they pray to saints). They also pray to Mary and hold her in very high regard even more so than Jesus christ in many respects in their prayer. This has no point in christian worship.

[Floristan]

  Demon possessed?!?!?!

  Idol worshippers?!?!?!

Is the year 2005 or 1005?

[ahmedito]

Don't get me wrong. I believe in God. But I also believe that it is completely a matter of faith. Only faith. There is no way to prove it. I found a really funny joke on the internet, which even though is supposed to ridicule religion, it made me realize how utterly stupid religious people look to people who dont believe in God. Read it, its one of the funniest things Ive seen:

https://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/hank.php

[pianowelsh]

We live in 2005 - just incase anyone lost the plot reading this thread! and God is the same yesterday today and forever! I dont quite know how this went down the road of Catholisism. Its not really relevent to the thread which is why do we need God. The answer to which is bluntly because we are still sinners today like we were in Noahs day like they were in the garden in the beginning. In fact one could even argue the case that we need God more urgently today as the last days are closer than they have ever been and God IS coming back 'we don't know the hour or the minute' - can i ask you, catholic or not (because God sees the heart not your crucifix) are you ready for his coming back ??!

[janice]

Pianowelsh, I agree 100% with everything you said!!!!

[pianonut]

me too!  in the case of demon possessed and idol worship - we understand better some things (by studying science, too) that people can have mental problems from malnutrition, head injuries, etc. so i am not discounting this.  but, we know, also, that God told us to 'test the spirits' and anyone who doesn't believe that Christ died and rose for us - is not 'of the spirit of God.'  what spirit does that leave?  you don't have mutter insanity to be 'led astray.'  our own minds can do this pretty well.  but- we also know that satan (through the power of many things - satanic worship, witchcraft, etc - which are glorified by hollywood ie. buffy , etc.) has a certain power in this age.

idols can be anything from budda's to money.  it's simply anything that you put before God.  non of us are exempt from worshipping (valuing) things at one time or other - spending too much effort on physical realities...instead of spiritual realities.  this makes us reactionary to physical things that happen to us.  when you see God's spiritual intent for humankind, you can slow down and make time for prayer (which helps you think better - believe it or not - especially if you pray for wisdom)  prayer is what helps us avoid mistakes we would normally make on our own.

[moderatissimo]

because he is the creator of all, even the music 

[haydn]

if u dun believe in the catholic God u will die and rot in hell. all the others r fakes.

We don't really know !
Maybe this is fake too ! I believe in God, but perhaps he/it doesn't exist !

Anyway, if God wasn't here, we wouldn't be there playing the piano ! 

[timothy42b]

Also, how does a God who is "pure love" do the things described in the Bible in Reply #17 above? (viz. instruct his followers to murder thousands of innocent babies)


  In the Old Testament the passages you mentioned refer to Godless people who were in idolatry and unrepentant. God's  removal of them was similar to a surgeon removing a cancerous tumor. These nations were going to infect His people with their sinful idolatrous teachings & attitudes, turning the Hebrews hearts away from God, their Deliverer.
So, the passages, taken out of the whole of old testament context & history sound like God is hurtful & unfair. Remember that "context is king" when studying the  Bible and seeking the truth. Also, anyone who is not for God is against Him, therefore they are children of Satan and thus, God's enemies.
God is sovereign, just, righteous and loving. 

I know this is an old post but it bothers me.  I find this theology (certainly this is not mainstream Christian theology, by the way) scarey.

Skip the apologetics for a moment.  Those Old Testament examples show anything but pure love.  They are violent and destructive actions toward a largely innocent population.  They do not seem in any obvious way to relate to instruction to "love your enemy" or "turn the other cheek." 

There seem to be two ways to handle this basic contradiction of a loving God who demands action that would seem to be evil.

One is to say, as Janice did above, that it's okay to kill, torture, rape, pillage, etc., as long as you have accurately defined your victim as sinful.  It's not only okay to do it, it's okay to enjoy it, because you are doing God's will.  In fact, it's not just okay, IT IS AN OBLIGATION.  The problems here are obvious.  You can (and many do) justify anything, including bombing abortion clinics, murder, terrorism, war, etc.  This viewpoint is obviously not limited to the Christian religion, as we can see from world events. 

The other way would be to say that maybe that part of the Old Testament does not accurately reflect God's commands.  Now we have another difficulty.  If some of the Bible is in error, how can we discriminate between the parts that are right and the parts that are wrong?  The proponents of the paragraph above also tend to feel pretty strongly that the entire Bible is inspired and inerrant (and usually is also a science text). 

If this sounds harsh, it is because there is genuine reason to be scared.  We've always had holy wars, but the available weapons limited the carnage to something merely horrible.  Today the technology exists to do much more, perhaps destroy the human race. 

I don't really know the answer.  I can't side with the "evil is okay as long as directed at the truly sinful," so I guess I am left with the "Bible contains error"  theory.  I do think that hiding from this basic contradiction does not make the world a safer, kinder, or gentler place. 

[Torp]

I don't really know the answer.  I can't side with the "evil is okay as long as directed at the truly sinful," so I guess I am left with the "Bible contains error"  theory.  I do think that hiding from this basic contradiction does not make the world a safer, kinder, or gentler place. 

I couldn't agree with you more if I had said it myself.

Jef

[Regulus Medtner]

scientifically disproving God

Ahem... can't be done! That's proven already.

[ahmedito]

In the original thread it says that Buddhists do not believe in God. Clarify, it all depends on your concept of God.

[Derek]

I believe in God partly because of the very fact that it is so improbable and incomprehensible. The universe itself is incomprehensible.

So we've derived a whole bunch of mathematical equations to describe interrelating behavior of physical phenomena. These are no better than music theory: they are not an explanation, they are only labels and tools. I challenge any of you to tell me WHAT an electron is. OH, its a subatomic particle? Wow, couldn't have guessed.  Whats a subatomic particle? Its composed of quarks?  OH! Wait...what are quarks? Points of Energy? Energy is a number used in equations. We are NAMING a physical phenomena energy, or matter. This does not explain WHAT they are.

Before you think I am a fundamentalist who believes the earth was created in 7 days and is 6000 years old, I'd like to say I firmly believe in Science's power to improve human life on this earth. It has been doing so and will of course continue to do so for as long as the human race exists. But it does not explain anything. This is not to say that God explains anything, either. I don't even WANT the concept of God to explain the universe to me. I feel believing in God is the ultimate form of acknowledging the profound mystery of the Universe.  I'm not sure whether many Christians share my view...but it seems to me that doesn't matter as much. Spirituality is a very individual endeavor, whether you choose to accept a traditional religion or not.

The main reason I believe in God, of course, is because it is a great comfort to me, and I have very powerful feelings that he really is there and hears what I say and even answers my prayers. I don't need to rationalize it---it is in my mind and my heart, and my very nature to believe in God. It makes everything about my existence better, purer and more fulfilling. I feel that all the music I create is for God.

[Torp]

I feel believing in God is the ultimate form of acknowledging the profound mystery of the Universe.....Spirituality is a very individual endeavor, whether you choose to accept a traditional religion or not.

Derek, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I found much I could agree with in your writing and feel the we see things very similarly (not that it matters if we do or not, just an observation on my part).  I quoted the above sentence because this is where I mostly differ, I suppose.  I acknowledge and am awed by the profound mystery of the Universe.  However, for me, I don't gain any personal comfort in attaching an intelligent being to its source.

Edit - I also meant to say that I whole-heartedly agree that sprituality is a very personal endeavor. - End Edit

This difference in our conclusions would be of little concern to me in an ongoing discourse.  I am usually more interested in finding commonality of thought from which to discuss differences.  I have often found that if/when the differences become the initial point of focus, no real dialogue can/will occur.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud (probably mostly to myself by now)  .....so I'll stop.

Jef