How to know what to do

[qpalqpal]

Hello, I have an upright Otto Altenburg New York Upright Piano . Although it is called "Spinet Model", it is not a small piano. It is approximately 4 and a half feet tall, so not a spinet. One of my questions is this:

I opened the piano (in the front, top), and I looked inside to see why the piano didn't sound very pleasant. THe sound is definitely not bad, but it is quite nasally sounding, which I come to wonder why. First I noticed that the strings are very dirty and rusty. I also looked online and saw that to make the piano sound good, you didn't need better strings, but hammer voicing. I was wondering if that would drastically make the piano sound any better. I would like to know how much it ranges to tune and to voice the piano. I have a budget of 250$, maybe more, if I need it. But please tell me what I must do to make the piano mellower and more pleasant, deep sounding.

Thank you so much in advance!

[hfmadopter]

A nasal tone doesn't always equate to a bad tone unless you don't like a nasal tone quality. I suspect with rusted strings you are not getting a true nasal tone but something else. Also, first you say it's bad and then you say it's not bad sounding, which one is it ?

We will discuss rusty strings, get back on this tone and also where on the keyboard register you are getting the tone from or is it overall ?

There is rust and then there is rust, it doesn't come in one quality !
David

[qpalqpal]

Well... I don't understand what you wrote . So is rusty strings bad and can never sound good I ts fine, what ever. They aren't super rusty, they are just very dirty. And the tone isn't bad, it just is nasal and not full sounding, an yes all over the registrar.

[iansinclair]

Usually rusty strings -- if that's all they are -- don't affect the tone quality much.  However, there are other possibilities for tone quality problems.  One is, of course, that it may be inherent to the instrument.  Another is that if the instrument hasn't been played much lately there may be heavy rust in the area of the dampers and where the hammers strike, which could make a mess of the tone.  Another is that the instrument may be surprisingly out of tune, of course -- although you are likely to hear that.  Another is -- again if the instrument hasn't been played much lately, is that the hammers may need attention (this is also a possibility if the instrument has been played a lot.

Without looking at it...

I don't usually talk price, but your budget strikes me as somewhat low for anything much beyond a good tuning -- at least in my part of the world.

[quantum]

Have you tried contacting a tech?  Upon examination of the piano he/she will be able to tell you what is needed to get the piano to sound the way you like it to. 

There is a large difference between rusty and just very dirty.  Maybe you could provide a picture.

[hfmadopter]

Well... I don't understand what you wrote . So is rusty strings bad and can never sound good I ts fine, what ever. They aren't super rusty, they are just very dirty. And the tone isn't bad, it just is nasal and not full sounding, an yes all over the registrar.

Sorry I had to go cut grass and my tractor really needs new belts and so of course one blew. So had to go.

What I was getting at is that rust isn't always a problem. Heavy rust to the point of corrosion can cause some problems, especially in the bass where sometimes or actually often a releasing of the the strings and removing them from the hitch pins and letting them relax, then re twisting them and reattaching can turn a once thunky sounding bass into a whole fresh new tone. So that's why I was asking if it's all over the key board or not. Also some techs are Leary of heavy rust because of strings breaking, the same guys may or may not know to let the strings down a bit before bringing them up to pitch, as with rust they could be stuck around the tuning pins the agafe, the bridge pins etc. a let down frees the rust, then pull it up.

 As a piano falls out of tune you can get strange harmonics, early signs can be a nasal tone of sorts but not in a good way..

In the end, under general tuning many techs will pick the hammers though not generally a full voice job. Surface rust on strings is generally not a problem unless as described already in the thread by others ( dampers stuck down etc.). And at that often still manageable.

I don't really get into pricing since I do my own work anyway. I'm not up on pricing really but I think you're in a ball park with what you have.

[qpalqpal]

Here is a picture of the hammers

https://s1053.photobucket.com/albums/s467/qpalqpal/?action=view&amp;current=8a1745e1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s467/qpalqpal/8a1745e1.jpg

[chopin2015]

Does it sound different in a different room??

[qpalqpal]

HA how should I know

[chopin2015]

Look if you're so interested in these pianos, why don't you work on one yourself? Quoting a piano repair is usually about 100 bucks or more for an assessment. Atleast 50 to tune if you have a good friend, but usually 150 dollars. The felt for pianos is very expensive and I would keep all original wood but would replace all details of the original action and even some hardware f.e the string nuts, the shinier the metal the better the tone quality. That is why it is good to have clean strings, ones that are not congested with oils and dust. Perhaps think about the design of piano. Do you have any pictures of it and of it inside the room that it is in?

[qpalqpal]

Yes, I'll post hem tomorrow, and the room is about the size of a hotel bedroom, a little bigger, with ALot of sunshine from stain glass windows

[chopin2015]

Cool! We will take a look. I would think your big room has nothing to do with a nasly sound, usually the bigger the room the better the bass response. Nasally sound is a lack of...obviously clarity. You can take a regular impulse response in the same room(a vocal track) and run it through a software EQ and start cutting frequencies and see where it would sound relevant. Also boost and see what sounds better. But obviously there is a lack of high and low frequency response either in the piano or the room, or both. We can take a look. The impulse response will let you know if it is your room.

[qpalqpal]

What about the hammer voicing 

[chopin2015]

I sometimes feel that it can greatly improve your high frequency output, maybe you could do a little recording, record the piano. Try a couple recordings focusing on what you hear, keep it basic. You need to pick one recording that sounds close representative of what you hear. Then we could do some research. I recommend a flat response mic, for calibrating speakers. I believe you could get one for 25 bucks at guitar center or online.

[hfmadopter]

What about the hammer voicing 

The hammers are worn, compacted, have grooves. But they look manageable by the photos at least. I wouldn't put new on an old upright anyway but it  ( by the photos) looks as though you won't need them. They actually look decent for the age. I'd probably voice them but I also do my own work so it really would depend on how the piano sounded minus the voicing but tuned and with the strings cleaned up.

I probably wouldn't restring the piano either, I'd just steel wool them, maybe some brushing around the tuning pins and if the bass strings need twisting I'd do that.

If the piano is of real emotional value to you, listen to some of the folks who would rebuild it , restring it or what ever though. I would not.

[chopin2015]

If you want the piano to sound less nasally, just clean the strings and tuning pins, tune it, adjust the voicings, and I would refelt the thing too...I think it always cleans up the tone once you do that. The strings are an expensive part of a restore, so don't worry about that-to rephrase what the guy above me said.

[qpalqpal]

SO what everyone is telling me is that voicing won't do much help? What the heck>

[quantum]

I think what people are trying to get at is there are other options in addition to voicing that could improve the sound of your piano.  You may wish to try some of these first before you go with voicing. 

[chopin2015]

No, voicing will improve the high frequency output which adds clarity which is the opposite of nasally. I think you should try it but what others are saying there is other maintenance that can increase the effectiveness of it. And you do not have to go the expensive route. If you have tons of more of the same kind of questions you can private message me.

[qpalqpal]

But I don't understand> First, I don't know how to clean strings, and I don't know if it may be safe. Tuning will be done same day as voicing, and my budget has increased to 350 because... its a long story, but anyways. Can someone summarize what was said so I know what I can do>? I am terribly confused :?

[quantum]

There is no single route to a better sound.  What you have been presented here are options.  Improving the sound of your piano can achieved through multiple pathways using a combination of one, or many of the suggestions above. 

If you are hiring a tech to do the job, there is no need to know the nitty gritty of how to clean bass strings, just ask your tech to do it. 

The tech that sees the piano in person is far more informed in making a decision on what to do.  The people on this form only have the brief description you provided.

[silverwoodpianos]

Had a glance at the photo;

 The hammer set has wear marks from the strings that require removal along with mating to the strings as many of them are marked off-center.

Then the instrument would require a tuning. Then and only then can the tone be evaluated for quality or lack thereof…..And the subsequent voicing that would go along with the evaluation of tone.

I would not recommend that you use steel wool on the strings. This can imbed small bits of steel into the copper windings of the bass strings and interfere with the oscillations.
The treble wire can be cleaned with steel wool but I would not recommend that procedure in this case.

Rust on wire does not produce a nasal tone but rather introduces, false harmonics or false beating, or increases the harmonics already present.

The work will require a doubling of the already mentioned budget to have this accomplished along with the aforementioned on-site technical evaluation.

[qpalqpal]

Can  you explain the first step, and will $350 cut it, where it is close to 150-200 for tuning, and then the rest

[silverwoodpianos]

Usually a hammer set in that shape indicates other wear in the keyboard/action. To re-shape the hammer set to original spec is only part of the job. Once the hammer heads are shaped, theoretically the hammer head is now too far away from the strings correct? (because the hammer head has been made smaller…..)

So the hammer action rail will have to be moved forward and shimmed which will release the capstans from being tight against the jacks….

Then if the hammer set blocks against the wire, new front rail punchings, or shimming the old ones would be required.

See what is going on?  One adjustment propagates another problem……..You really need a technician to look at this in person.

I have no idea of the pricing in your locale.  Here in Vancouver, Canada just the shaping of the hammer set would eat up the funding mentioned.

You will need to weigh the value of the repairs against the present market value of the instrument. There are plenty of older tall uprights everywhere for a few hundred bucks that may not have these kinds of problems requiring this kind of expenditure…..

[qpalqpal]

Would it cos more than tuning? Because tuning is from 100-200

[silverwoodpianos]

Would it cos more than tuning? Because tuning is from 100-200

Yes.

[hfmadopter]

SO what everyone is telling me is that voicing won't do much help? What the heck>

 

You can't be expected to understand the workings of your piano in a few short postings online when there are volumes of books written on the topic ! And there really is no reason for you to understand unless you had a desire to learn piano repair. You just want it fixed ! Hire a registered professional, this is your best insurance towards the best ending, IMO. A piano has hundreds of parts with degrees of options that can be taken to help it perform better than it does right now.
David

[qpalqpal]

Okay, so right now an experienced piano tuner is tuning my humble instrument. He's reaching the five hour mark. He has been tuning nearly two hours and is needling, and before that, he was shaping hammers. Will 250$ do him justice. He's a nice russian man, around 60

[hfmadopter]

Okay, so right now an experienced piano tuner is tuning my humble instrument. He's reaching the five hour mark. He has been tuning nearly two hours and is needling, and before that, he was shaping hammers. Will 250$ do him justice. He's a nice russian man, around 60

Sounds like he's doing the whole job and well hopefully ! If you are concerned about cost, it's too late now, maybe you should ask him what the cost will be pretty soon ?

After shaping you need to needle and sometimes varnish and needle again, the hammers. And maybe do a final tuning as well once that's all done. I suspect you are not going to believe the difference in your piano when he gets done.
David

[qpalqpal]

The difference was well worth it. Its finished, and I love the tone. It isnt a new creature, it is reminescent of the old tone, but it is much softer throughout all keys and the lost action has been found. It felt different at first touch, but got used to it in a second. And he is a concert tuner, so he was definately an experienced guy. I kind of felt bad though because he worked so hard.

We played when he finished. He sight read throguh Brahm's second Intermezzo pretty nicely, and I played debussy's arabesque, which he later begged me to give him a copy to learn it 


I am definately glad with the new piano/

[hfmadopter]

The difference was well worth it. Its finished, and I love the tone. It isn't a new creature, it is reminiscent of the old tone, but it is much softer throughout all keys and the lost action has been found. It felt different at first touch, but got used to it in a second. And he is a concert tuner, so he was definitely an experienced guy. I kind of felt bad though because he worked so hard.

We played when he finished. He sight read through Brahms second Intermezzo pretty nicely, and I played Debussy's arabesque, which he later begged me to give him a copy to learn it 


I am definitely glad with the new piano/

All is well then, that's great !

My first tuner was so so, he knew the ropes but I think he had an A flat tuning fork ! He was the guy I actually got my grand from partially rebuilt. He also couldn't play a whole lot. I'm sure he's passed on now, he had to be in his 80s when I knew hime almost 40 years ago now. My second tuner was a trained professional and I still call him today if I get stuck on something myself ( since I tune my own piano) he was quite an advanced baroque player as well. In fact he did a couple of good sized recitals featuring mostly baroque, to which I attended one in a large church in NewBedford Ma.. He was also in to harpsichord. Tuners/techs are generally colorful people, they get around.

Glad your piano turned out well,
David

[qpalqpal]

THanks. I wish it was a steinway, so I could keep it for longer, but he said it wasnt worth it

[hfmadopter]

THanks. I wish it was a steinway, so I could keep it for longer, but he said it wasnt worth it

Your piano is not worth keeping ?

[qpalqpal]

Not after 10 years