Memorizing and how the brain works

[outin]

I have noticed something... My hands memorize things very fast, it is only my conscious mind that is slow. This is actually a bit of a problem. When I learn new pieces my hands learn the movements almost right away. So this is what happens: My hands already know what to do, but because my mind doesn't, it starts overthinking and "making sure" the hands know what to do and end up confusing the hands and that causes a break or even a black out. Sometimes my hands do things before my brain has time to do anything and I can almost literally hear my mind yelling at them "What the hell were you thinking!" and that also confuses the hands which already have gone to the next part 

It can take a long time before my mind "catches up" with the hands but if I just keep on working on the piece it finally does. I have experimented different things to make it faster, but had little success. I know someone will tell me to take the sheet and work on it before going to piano. But I just cannot do that. I cannot consciously memorize anything that involves symbols, whether they are notes, numbers or letters. I literally get a headache if I try. I've been like this ever since a young child.

Yesterday instead of just playing a piece (that I already have memorized on some level, but sometimes get these blackouts), I tried to play the notes of the right and then the left hand with just random fingers and found several spots that I can play in the piece, but had absolutely no idea what notes to play next. I even had to take out the score to look.

Isn't it just interesting how piano playing makes it visible how your brain works? The things you have read as theory suddenly just become real...

And no, I don't think the hands have a memory of their own, it is just situtated in the other half of the brain, not the control freak half that is always trying to mess up with my playing any way it can

[harpogrames]

This reminds me of "The Inner game of Music" . It talk about the two "selfes"
- If it interferes with your potential, it's self 1
- If it expresses your potential, it's self 2

I would think that the "What the hell are you doing" is the self 1 and the ones driving the fingers is the self 2 

I found it an interesting read.

[outin]

What about all those other selves that I tend to have in my brain? 

[harpogrames]

What about all those other selves that I tend to have in my brain? 

Dont mind 'em

I primarily play the harmonica and have a large repertoire of fiddle tunes that I play fluently. I am very concentrated when learning a tune from scratch but when first I got the notes right most of the practising is in done in my car to/from work. I can easily drive, dance or do other stuff while playing it happens automatically.

My point is that I am letting go - I am not really concentrating on it, I don't need to use my conscious mind - and thus, the concious mind can't screw it up. And this habit is so ingrained in me that I seldom encounter the problems you describe anymore.

I probably should not advice anyone to practice in the car though...

[outin]

I probably should not advice anyone to practice in the car though...

Not the piano 

[hfmadopter]

Outin, your name isn't really m1469 is it !!?? She gets into these profound thoughts and deep analysis sessions too.

I try not to over think things, maybe I should it might help me improve.
David

[outin]

I think I'm more of a scientist in nature than a philosofer. I find all kind of problems interesting. Sometimes it's the beginning of the universe and sometimes my own brain cells 

Don't worry, it's good not to overanalyze things while sitting at the piano. It's just something to do on this keyboard when supposed to be doing boring work (that is not at all related to piano).

[hfmadopter]

I think I'm more of a scientist in nature than a philosofer. I find all kind of problems interesting. Sometimes it's the beginning of the universe and sometimes my own brain cells 

Don't worry, it's good not to overanalyze things while sitting at the piano. It's just something to do on this keyboard when supposed to be doing boring work (that is not at all related to piano).

Well I remember my teacher telling me to be careful of letting the music get into your hands and then playing by reflex vs actually knowing the music really well. Guilty as charged I'm afraid ! Of course if you stick with a piece long enough you indeed really will know the music. At any rate, I don't think it's a bad thing to look inside and see who is really controlling the hands at the keys, the brain or the reflex motion ! The thing with reflex is you think you really know it and then when under pressure you crack and it all falls apart. Been there done that. So I must tread ahead carefully with any new music.

[harpogrames]

Well I remember my teacher telling me to be careful of letting the music get into your hands and then playing by reflex vs actually knowing the music really well.

Do you think that these two things are mutually exclusive?

This morning, after a good nights sleep, I sat at the piano and played a section I had practiced briefly yesterday. I played it flawlessly a couple of times until I remembered "Hey, I can't play this, I've hardly practiced it" and suddenly started making mistakes. My theory is that if I could make my mind shut up, it wouldn't had been a problem. So part of the reason for practicing is to gain confidence and overcome this insecurity.

[outin]

This morning, after a good nights sleep, I sat at the piano and played a section I had practiced briefly yesterday. I played it flawlessly a couple of times until I remembered "Hey, I can't play this, I've hardly practiced it" and suddenly started making mistakes. My theory is that if I could make my mind shut up, it wouldn't had been a problem. So part of the reason for practicing is to gain confidence and overcome this insecurity.

That happens to me all the time 

I have started to practice in the morning before going to work, because I have noticed that when I'm not properly awake yet, my mind is more quiet ...

[nyiregyhazi]

This reminds me of "The Inner game of Music" . It talk about the two "selfes"
- If it interferes with your potential, it's self 1
- If it expresses your potential, it's self 2

I would think that the "What the hell are you doing" is the self 1 and the ones driving the fingers is the self 2  

I found it an interesting read.

I think you actually have to be very careful to differentiate between this and what they speak of in the inner game. There's a big difference between something you know how to do perfectly well going wrong due to the wrong mindset and something that easily goes wrong because YOU DON'T KNOW IT PROPERLY!

When the memory is purely physical, it's inevitable that the conscious mind will panic at times. The solution is not to shut out all conscious thoughts about what is happening (as the game might seem to suggest) but to broaden the ways in which you have memorised the music beyond the merely physical. Also, when memory is purely physical, frequently it's actually the physical side that causes the problem. Unless it's 100% reliable, it will sometimes fail. It's easy to leap to the assumption that accidentally thinking is what caused the problem, but much of the time it's actually lack of understanding that truly caused it. When a tiny hole creeps up in the physical habit, the only way to be sure of keeping it going is a broad conscious understanding of what you are playing. When that is absent, the slightest hole in the physical memory will cause an instant break down- because you have no idea what you are trying to come back to. Often it's when we ascribe such a breakdown to excessive thought that we're really guilty of over-analysing- not when we think about what notes we are playing. If you know the music properly, this should never cause a problem.

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you think that these two things are mutually exclusive?

This morning, after a good nights sleep, I sat at the piano and played a section I had practiced briefly yesterday. I played it flawlessly a couple of times until I remembered "Hey, I can't play this, I've hardly practiced it" and suddenly started making mistakes. My theory is that if I could make my mind shut up, it wouldn't had been a problem. So part of the reason for practicing is to gain confidence and overcome this insecurity.

The fact that you need to make your mind "shut up" is what shows you don't yet know it. Do you think that a genius who can memorise a piece in one short playthrough has to be careful not to think about what notes he is playing not to go wrong? Does he have to rely on pure physical memory- without thinking about harmonic construction etc. On the contrary, it's the fact that he has such comprehensive understanding of what he is doing that ensures that he cannot go wrong. If he did not have such a clear mental imprint, he would not be able to do it reliably. You can't start treating these things as bad things until you've actually gained a deep understanding of what notes you are playing and what you are doing. Getting the mind to stay out of it is for after your mind has actually understood what is going on.

[outin]

^Of course, but thinking about what you are doing can happen on many level (if we listen to the psychologists). Some of it is productive and some counterproductive. It is not possible to shut your mind out totally anyway. For an average person it is much easier to learn to concentrate the thoughts into the notes and the playing process, but people with different attention problems find it often impossible. There's a lot of gray area here, most people struggle sometimes.

[harpogrames]

I have started to practice in the morning before going to work, because I have noticed that when I'm not properly awake yet, my mind is more quiet ...

I've started doing the same thing but until today I didn't actually realize why it worked so well!

I think I'm more of a scientist in nature than a philosofer

I think I'm more of a naturist in science  

[nyiregyhazi]

^Of course, but thinking about what you are doing can happen on many level (if we listen to the psychologists). Some of it is productive and some counterproductive. It is not possible to shut your mind out totally anyway.

Exactly. This is what makes the notion of telling your brain to shut up so dubious. If you have no idea what you are doing and suddenly find yourself running your fingers without a clue what they are doing, in front of a large audience, you can forget telling your brain not to think about anything. You can't analyse every individual note in concert, but you CAN organise various reference points to focus on that will greatly add to the security. The brain needs a positive thing to focus on- not instructions to try not to do anything.

 For example, you may have a sequential figure that looks complex, but which starts first on C then on D then E say. If you forget about how you do the in-between notes but consciously notice the ascending reference notes, it's vastly more secure that running your fingers cluelessly and hoping that your brain won't make it go wrong (due to what should probably be regarded as realising that you have no clue what you are doing, rather than "interfering"). I think the inner game is very easily misunderstood. It's not the slightest use trying to keep your brain out of it unless you have already programmed the right processes to take care of themselves. Running the fingers without the slightest point of reference is the most futile approach their is. The fact that people who depend on this typically do a little better than when they think should not be taken as evidence of the folly of thought- it merely shows how little security there is when you don't have a foundation in understanding.

[outin]

Exactly. This is what makes the notion of telling your brain to shut up so dubious. If you have no idea what you are doing and suddenly find yourself running your fingers without a clue what they are doing, in front of a large audience, you can forget telling your brain not to think about anything.

Maybe you took it a bit too literal. I am sure we both (or at least me) were talking about focusing the mind on productive thought instead of useless random thoughts and self critizism. Not everyone suffers from it, but some people really do. They are called control freaks and perfectionists. They need special methods to get to the point where their brain activity is productive instead of couterproductive.

If you read the original post, I completely agree that hand memory and some fragments just isn't enough to be secure with the piece.

[harpogrames]

There's a big difference between something you know how to do perfectly well going wrong due to the wrong mindset and something that easily goes wrong because YOU DON'T KNOW IT PROPERLY!

Certainly. In this context I would define KNOW IT PROPERLY as having:
1. Muscular memory of the piece
2. Understanding
3. Confidence

I think all these are symbiotic and all three can be gained through practicing and performing. I'm guessing that a lot of talented and experienced people, perhaps like yourself, have so much confidence that they never had to think about it.

When the memory is purely physical, it's inevitable that the conscious mind will panic at times

Yes - due to a lack of confidence

The solution is not to shut out all conscious thoughts about what is happening (as the game might seem to suggest) but to broaden the ways in which you have memorised the music beyond the merely physical.

The book (Inner game of music) does not suggest shutting out all conscious thoughts, no. I myself try to focus my conscious mind on musical feeling and expression. That is a lot easier if you don't have to worry about hitting the right notes.

I pretty much agree with what you say except that I believe that you can actually play something flawlessly without any understanding although it would probably sound very uninspired.

[outin]

Also I must say that I would never be able to perform anyway. I simply do not have the brain power to focus long enough on playing. I make public speeches all the time and have also sang in public, so it's not nerves. Playing the piano simply requires such level of concentration that is impossible for me. I know that I would not be able to play through any longer piece of music. Even when practicing I can feel the pressure rising in my brain on longer pieces and it needs a sort of reset. When I was a kid things like attention disorders were hardly talked about but I always knew I was somehow different.

Does it matter? Not really, because I love the sensation of playing and the piano sound, I don't need other people around to enjoy it

[nyiregyhazi]

Maybe you took it a bit too literal. I am sure we both (or at least me) were talking about focusing the mind on productive thought instead of useless random thoughts and self critizism. Not everyone suffers from it, but some people really do. They are called control freaks and perfectionists. They need special methods to get to the point where their brain activity is productive instead of couterproductive.

If you read the original post, I completely agree that hand memory and some fragments just isn't enough to be secure with the piece.

Quite honestly, I think many people attempt to empty their brain and think that this is better than thinking about what you are doing in an organised and structured way. I've seen students who really struggle when they think and who hence become convinced they have to to just try to do it on an autopilot that is not yet properly developed. The thing is, sometimes it works better in the short term- but the only hope of real long term improvement is to look at the score and understand what they are actually attempting to do.

Of course, there are different levels, but I think it's rare that anyone can honestly say the problem is the brain interfering- except at extremely high levels of achievement. I believe they are often mistaking the fact that the brain panics in the instant where the physical memory is on course to fail- and they mistake that panicked thought about how to keep it going as having caused a mistake (rather than realise that it's a mere symptom of superficial physical memory going wrong and the brain trying to figure out how it could keep it going). 

[outin]

It's impossible to go into other people's minds so it's hard to tell what the issues are. I just like to know more about how mine works, so I tend to experiment with it. Time has thought me what is possible and what is not and I try to use my strengths to compensate for my weaknesses.

[harpogrames]

I am sure we both (or at least me) were talking about focusing the mind on productive thought instead of useless random thoughts and self critizism.

Exactly  

If you have no idea what you are doing and suddenly find yourself running your fingers without a clue what they are doing, in front of a large audience, you can forget telling your brain not to think about anything.

Assuming you have learned the movements, if not interrupted the fingers should run by themselves just fine.
If you start thinking that you don't have a clue what is happening, that's what I would call a loss of focus and is caused by insecurity or the mind simply wandering off.

So the paradigm I am presenting here is that the problem is not the fingers running from the mind, it is the mind panicking.

Now, the solution I was suggesting, was to actively train your mind to be less interfering by "letting go". It is not a substitute for practicing and understanding.

And THIS is my claim, and I'd more than happy to discuss this

[nyiregyhazi]

Assuming you have learned the movements, if not interrupted the fingers should run by themselves just fine.
If you start thinking that you don't have a clue what is happening, that's what I would call a loss of focus and is caused by insecurity or the mind simply wandering off.

I think you're completely missing the point here. If this is BECAUSE you don't have a clue what is happening (but have instead learned nothing but physical movements), it's no use hoping to repress natural thoughts. It's time to get to know what is happening. Knowing the movements isn't enough.

When my own black outs occur, it's usually because, despite the fact that my fingers can play the notes, by brain has actually stopped organising what they are doing. What you refer to as interference is simply the brain realising it doesn't know what the hell is going on. It needs to think more about what is going on- but from a place of security, so it's not causing rightful panic. Trying to teach yourself not to panic is no use. There's a good reason to be panicking, if you have nothing but muscle memory. You're referring to "letting go" of something that isn't even there to begin with.

[hfmadopter]

When my own black outs occur, it's usually because, despite the fact that my fingers can play the notes, by brain has actually stopped organising what they are doing. What you refer to as interference is simply the brain realising it doesn't know what the hell is going on. It needs to think more about what is going on- but from a place of security, so it's not causing rightful panic. Trying to teach yourself not to panic is no use. There's a good reason to be panicking, if you have nothing but muscle memory. You're referring to "letting go" of something that isn't even there to begin with.

I'm in agreement with this scenario. I used to be able to hack my way out of a black out but I'm not so convinced of that any longer as I age. I've taken to more reading but my eyes are so whacked I lose my place at times under pressure. Still, to the point all in all, it boils down to really knowing the piece or not IMO. As you say, if it's muscular memory for the most part ( what I call reflex because my teacher did way back when) then under pressure it's going to fall apart. If you know the piece, or if I know the piece at least, then I can gather my brain back together and continue to play. Not with muscular memory, it's over ! Not only that but if I lost the piece under preasure then it's lost for a day or two from getting rattled over it.

This is why earlier I said I have to really tread on carefully about whether I'm playing the piece well over truely knowing it or if it's just in the muscle memory. Either way if it comes off well it will sound fairly nice and I could gain false confidence. For me to tell if it's really in my mind or in my hands I have to play in front of someone. I'd rather find another approach and need to work on that.. It's just that back when i took lessons my guage was our monthly Wed night work shops where we played in front of other students and the teacher and sometimes a guest or two.. It really prepped us for a performance, be that as simple as company in the house at home or getting a recital ready and later on in my studies to go out and guest appear someplace in town. That was a long time ago, I'd like to gain back even 75% of that ability now.

[hmpiano]

Also I must say that I would never be able to perform anyway. I simply do not have the brain power to focus long enough on playing. I make public speeches all the time and have also sang in public, so it's not nerves. Playing the piano simply requires such level of concentration that is impossible for me. I know that I would not be able to play through any longer piece of music. Even when practicing I can feel the pressure rising in my brain on longer pieces and it needs a sort of reset.

I certainly feel your pain.  I'm convinced there's an answer though.

[hfmadopter]

Do you think that these two things are mutually exclusive?

This morning, after a good nights sleep, I sat at the piano and played a section I had practiced briefly yesterday. I played it flawlessly a couple of times until I remembered "Hey, I can't play this, I've hardly practiced it" and suddenly started making mistakes. My theory is that if I could make my mind shut up, it wouldn't had been a problem. So part of the reason for practicing is to gain confidence and overcome this insecurity.

No but I think there is some separation. By playing reflex it isn't as though you know nothing of the piece in active memory. I put it as something of motor memory controls reflex playing. Ovbiously the hands and fingers have no memory of their own without your brain, so ultimately the brain is doing all the memory but in different classifications.

My teacher never got in too deep a discussion about this. All I know is that she seems to have been correct. You indeed can be playing along, and well, not knowing fully or being fully aware how it's happening, get rattled and it's over.. On the flip side, I've played recitals  where I knew the music well enough that I was playing one thing and anticipating the next hard spot. That's going into the piece prepared, so your mind knows what is coming up next. You don't get rattled because your mind has already gone over what your hands are doing when you get there and moved on. If you were sight reading you would be reading the next measure or perhaps the next phrase from the one you are playing. Instead of playing the measure you are reading. It gives you goof up room.

Anyway, that was then and this is now. At 62 it isn't going anything like that, I'm just happy to be back at the piano again ! I should be ready to perform a half dozen pieces for Christmas Eve. I've done some rough run throughs with people in the room and got through them.  ( not that that's really related to the topic) !We usually have 25 or so people here on Christmas Eve. Some have heard me in the past, some not. My own kids of course grew up in the house with me playing piano. I've been away from it for a bunch of years, glad to get back to it.

[kotoko]

The book (Inner game of music) does not suggest shutting out all conscious thoughts, no. I myself try to focus my conscious mind on musical feeling and expression. That is a lot easier if you don't have to worry about hitting the right notes.

I have to agree with this. If I focus too heavily on notes and all the little details, I lose sight of the bigger picture of the piece - that is, the expression, the idea it's trying to convey. If my fingers can take care of the notes, I can focus more on the phrases, the dynamics, the little things that make the piece so much more than a bunch of notes and chords. But, I've always been the type to favour artistry over technique ^^;; (I realize you need both to be an excellent pianist...which is why I was never one of those, LOL)

I have to disagree about the point of panicking = not having understanding/confidence. I have panicked before and it ruined my performance. For example, I once played Chopin's Nocturne in F# Major for a local competition. Out of my repertoire at the time, it was my favourite (and best) piece, and I ended up placing 3rd with my performance of it. Fast forward a few months, and I sat my grade 10 exam. For some reason, for this piece that I had done so well in previously, I panicked. I blanked. I cracked under the enormous pressure to do well and pass this exam that had caused me so much stress and frustration. I can say with confidence that I knew this piece very well, but I was tired, nervous, and panicky at the time. It was a disappointing performance.

Similar instances have happened to me even off the piano, such as school exams, so I'm convinced that overthinking really can affect the way you do things. It's not just a matter of "not having a complete understanding" of the material.

[bustthewave]

The brain explanation part of my reply-

The brain part of this is simple - it's pure muscle memory. Muscle memory is processed in the cerebellum, and coordinates all the fine, precise movements at a level your conciouse brain can't. The only thing you conciously have to do, is start the movement, and your cerebellum does the rest (it's the same thing with walking, you aren't thinking about what muscles you're using to hold your balance, you just do it).

To the person who was amazed they played a piece flawlessly the next morning after struggling with it the day before - Your brain is unbelievably fast at developing a memory of movements; but most of those connections are made while you sleep. You may be struggling with a section that day, but you've repeated the movements enough that your brain just needs time to process. If you find you can't get something right, no matter how many times you've practiced it that day, it's because your cerebellum needs to connect up all of that information. There's only so much you can do in one sit down.

My personal part of my own reply -

What my question is... if you rely on this almost entirely for playing, is it a bad thing? I've been playing the piano since I was 2 by ear, and only really been getting deep into music theory the past year (I'm 25).

I only need to read the sheet music once (granted I go measure by measure) before having the notes down regardless of how complicated the measure is. I play slowly, making sure I have good fingering, I glance ahead to make sure my fingering gets me to the next measure, and then I build up speed. Once I can play that measure at speed comfortably (and at this point I'm relying on muscle memory), I generally begin working a bit on the musicality (though I don't tackle this aspect entirely until I know the entire piece).

For heavy chord passages, I typically remember the shapes my hands make to hit the chord, and I trust my muscle memory to a point that I rarely make a mistake in passages I'm comfortable playing. But I can't tell you what notes I play readily in any given song as that's all intuitive for me. I can tell you how many notes I hit, and their relation to each other, but not the notes, and sometimes not even the key (if it's been a while since I've played it).

It's interesting, because if I go back to a piece I haven't played in months, I usually will start in the wrong key, hit the notes exactly as I would if they were in the right key (which obviously sounds terrible), and have to hum the correct starting note outloud until I find it on the keys. Once I hit that first note, I can play the entire piece exactly as I would have a few months prior.

So my question then is... is this a bad thing? A bad way to practice? Making music theory intuitive after 23 years of playing by ear is a really tough thing....

[harpogrames]

I think you're completely missing the point here.

Not completely, your point is that both muscular memory AND understanding (clue?) of the piece is a requisite for avoiding panic, yes?

What I am missing is your definition of "having a clue". Maybe you could elaborate on what level of understanding you think is necessary to perform a piece (decently)?

[nyiregyhazi]

Not completely, your point is that both muscular memory AND understanding (clue?) of the piece is a requisite for avoiding panic, yes?

What I am missing is your definition of "having a clue". Maybe you could elaborate on what level of understanding you think is necessary to perform a piece (decently)?

Let's say there's a melodic line. Can you play it fluently by memory with the wrong hand or with a single finger- with complete assurance and without the slightest doubt as to a single note (in a situation that is specifically designed to eliminate the aid of physical memory and instead rely solely on true understanding of the music). Also, can you play the harmonic outline, from memory? These kinds of issues. Personally I'm absolutely crap at this sort of thing- but these are the skills that ought to be in place if a pianist wants to play with true assurance. The more I develop these issues (even though they are not a strength) the less likely I am to have physical habits fall down. I'd far sooner develop these than go into esoteric mind-games, when the truth is that most memory lapses are ultimately caused by excessive dependence on physical habit and inadequate  understanding of what is actually going on in the music. Mind-games are for when you know the music truly inside-out, not for when you only know it very superficially. They only raise your ability to meet with your current potential- they do very little to increase the potential of someone who has minimal understanding of the music's construction.

Obviously there are different levels and the above example is a very difficult one- but it's by putting positive focus into analytical reference points that even a pianist who thinks he plays by mere physical feel (and goes wrong when thinking about what is happening) can get greater assurance. Everyone has certain reference points (even if unconscious) that mean it's never 100% on physical habit. However, it's by developing more of these points that you most easily stop panic happening. Unless a pianist can do the type of things I mentioned before, panic is always grounded in genuine insecurity about the music. Even if it's more general nervousness, it's when it triggers the realisation that you do not feel secure in what you are doing that it turns into outright panic. The more you know what you are doing, the more easily general nervousness fades away and turns into a feel of security. This is why it's so good to run through a programme for small numbers of people before a concert. The holes that it exposes may not occur in practise, but they are almost always grounded in genuinely inadequate familiarity with those passages. Slight nervousness always makes things worse and brings holes to the forefront. It's just natural. The best way to avoid panic is to know what you're actually doing- so you don't panic at the realisation that you really don't.

[harpogrames]

Let's say there's a melodic line. Can you play it fluently by memory with the wrong hand or with a single finger- with complete assurance and without the slightest doubt as to a single note (in a situation that is specifically designed to eliminate the aid of physical memory and instead rely solely on true understanding of the music).

This is a good example I get your point now! In my earlier reasoning I did not differentiate between muscular memory and "memorization" because they always go hand in hand for me.

But yes this kind of understanding is absolutely necessary, I don't think it would be possible for me to play anything at all without hearing it inside my head first. I play a lot music by ear, and when I use sheet music I pretty much only look at the sheet once to learn the notes, after that I only use it for organizing my practice sessions. I am a terrible sight reader though!

[faulty_damper]

The brain explanation part of my reply-

The brain part of this is simple - it's pure muscle memory. Muscle memory is processed in the cerebellum, and coordinates all the fine, precise movements at a level your conciouse brain can't. The only thing you conciously have to do, is start the movement, and your cerebellum does the rest (it's the same thing with walking, you aren't thinking about what muscles you're using to hold your balance, you just do it).

It's not just the cerebellum but also the motor cortex of the cerebrum that is active during motor tasks.  You are actively aware of the processing of the motor cortex; that is, you have conscious control. 

[hmpiano]

The only thing you conciously have to do, is start the movement,

Hmm, that sounds easy.  How do you do that?

[faulty_damper]

It depends on how connected the movements are.  If the movements have been well-repeated in sequence, initiating one movement automatically triggers the next.  It's like running a script on a computer; it automatically does it so you don't have to think of performing each movement.  But this requires an extensive amount of repetition.

Also, the moment you start thinking about the movements, you start interfering with the movements.  This is the "over thinking" issue that was mentioned previously.  What occurs when this happens is that the conscious mind starts sending inputs to the motor cortex which is already on autopilot which drives it off course.  Just imagine riding a bicycle and suddenly, there is a strong crosswind blowing you off course.

[bustthewave]

It's not just the cerebellum but also the motor cortex of the cerebrum that is active during motor tasks.  You are actively aware of the processing of the motor cortex; that is, you have conscious control. 

This is true but only to an extent. The active, conscious control you have, in the primary motor cortex of the cerebrum is to decide to start or stop the movement, OR to over-ride the processes and coordination of the cerebellum. The cerebellum receives information from the primary motor cortex as well as sends a copy of the information regarding the movements that it's already sent to your muscles (by taking the path from the brain stem to the spinal chord, and from the spinal chord and brain stem to the muscles). Once that motion begins we then have no further direct control of the intricacies involved, excepting of course when we consciously choose to over-ride the movements (in this case the motor functions are being controlled largely in the primary motor cortex), to create new or variations on learned movements.

The two elements do work in tandem, conscious and unconscious control, but I would say 99% if not more is unconscious.

And what i mean by overriding, is when we want to refine a learned movement ourselves (because the cerebellum's refined movements may not be playing with the most effective fingering, or the greatest musicality), we can actively choose to send messages from our motor cortex (concious control) to the cerebellum saying "no, don't do this... do this." When we do that however, the cerebellum has to take time to re-learn how to do the movement. It'll automatically do as much of the movements that it can based on previous experience, but obviously the new information will mess that up quite a bit, and leave the poor cerebellum confused, and having to learn new movements.

[bustthewave]

It depends on how connected the movements are.  If the movements have been well-repeated in sequence, initiating one movement automatically triggers the next.  It's like running a script on a computer; it automatically does it so you don't have to think of performing each movement.  But this requires an extensive amount of repetition.

Also, the moment you start thinking about the movements, you start interfering with the movements.  This is the "over thinking" issue that was mentioned previously.  What occurs when this happens is that the conscious mind starts sending inputs to the motor cortex which is already on autopilot which drives it off course.  Just imagine riding a bicycle and suddenly, there is a strong crosswind blowing you off course.

This ^

The "over thinking" part is the "over-riding" part I mentioned. But yea, that's basically a much better way to describe what I was trying to say.

[hmpiano]

It depends on how connected the movements are.  If the movements have been well-repeated in sequence, initiating one movement automatically triggers the next. 

But starting the movement?  Where does that come from? How do you dip your toe into that 'initiating one movement'?

[faulty_damper]

Starting the movement is simply just thinking about doing it and doing it.  If it's been practiced a lot, then it will go on autopilot.  If it hasn't been practiced a lot, it won't.  That's the key: lots of practice. (Practice means repetition.)

[hmpiano]

Starting the movement is simply just thinking about doing it and doing it. 

I think my question is how do you get from the simply just thinking to the doing?

[nyiregyhazi]

It depends on how connected the movements are.  If the movements have been well-repeated in sequence, initiating one movement automatically triggers the next.  It's like running a script on a computer; it automatically does it so you don't have to think of performing each movement.  But this requires an extensive amount of repetition.

Also, the moment you start thinking about the movements, you start interfering with the movements.  This is the "over thinking" issue that was mentioned previously.  What occurs when this happens is that the conscious mind starts sending inputs to the motor cortex which is already on autopilot which drives it off course.  Just imagine riding a bicycle and suddenly, there is a strong crosswind blowing you off course.

A pianist should be totally equipped to deal with the equivalent of a cross-wind blowing you off course. If it were as simple as you portray above, how does an accompanist cope with an unexpected ritenuto from the soloist? Does he fly of course- simply because he has to send out signals to his fingers to alter the pacing of the movement? Is he incapable of getting the pacing of the movements correctly unless they have been specifically executed before? No.

It's too simplistic to say that everything runs on autopilot and that any thought amounts to "interference". The reality is a lot more complex. Primarily, I believe that the most accomplised pianists do not get thrown because they avoid thought, but rather because when they choose to involve it, they know what they are doing well enough not to be thrown off course by it. Good pianists are making adjustments all the time. Also, when you know a piece well, there should be virtually nothing that can surprise you and then throw you off track. It should be very hard to suddenly notice something that you never noticed before- if you practise with thought and intelliegence. The idea that it's purely about one reflex triggering the next really misses the point, sorry. This is literally the case in some inexperienced pianists who are prone to severe breakdowns. However, it fails to take into account how many other things are going on- in the playing of an accomplished artist who plays reliably. They are not limited to what you describe.

[nyiregyhazi]

what i mean by overriding, is when we want to refine a learned movement ourselves (because the cerebellum's refined movements may not be playing with the most effective fingering, or the greatest musicality), we can actively choose to send messages from our motor cortex (concious control) to the cerebellum saying "no, don't do this... do this." When we do that however, the cerebellum has to take time to re-learn how to do the movement. It'll automatically do as much of the movements that it can based on previous experience, but obviously the new information will mess that up quite a bit, and leave the poor cerebellum confused, and having to learn new movements.

Again, this has to be oversimplified. Okay, a fingering alteration is quite a big deal. But EVERY note that is played requires some level of adaptation. You shouldn't have to practise a passage repeatedly to adapt to a new piano. Tonal control on different instruments is the result of constant adaptations- not of mere repetition of habit. The brain almost never runs on pure autopilot. This is why I am so skeptical of the idea that you are supposed to attempt to repress any thoughts. That just takes you back to mere repetition of movements- ie. empty note spinning. Good pianists should never be thrown either by noticing what they are doing or by thinking about the adjustments that must be made (for a particular hall and piano) in order to get the right sound effects. Surely that means the cerebrum is always involved? At the very least, whichever part of the brain makes the adjustments, it's never a case of following a simplistic learned path from A to B. If you try to stick entirely to habit, you are sacrificing musical control and instead making movements like a trained monkey. To play with artistry, you have to be able to think and adapt without getting thrown.

[bustthewave]

Again, this has to be oversimplified. Okay, a fingering alteration is quite a big deal. But EVERY note that is played requires some level of adaptation. You shouldn't have to practise a passage repeatedly to adapt to a new piano. Tonal control on different instruments is the result of constant adaptations- not of mere repetition of habit. The brain almost never runs on pure autopilot. This is why I am so skeptical of the idea that you are supposed to attempt to repress any thoughts. That just takes you back to mere repetition of movements- ie. empty note spinning. Good pianists should never be thrown either by noticing what they are doing or by thinking about the adjustments that must be made (for a particular hall and piano) in order to get the right sound effects. Surely that means the cerebrum is always involved? At the very least, whichever part of the brain makes the adjustments, it's never a case of following a simplistic learned path from A to B.

First, I would never suggest practicing on auto-pilot. Intentional practice certainly is better. And in terms of how much "autopilot" a person should use when playing I can't answer, I actually asked if how I practice was a bad method above because I genuinely don't know. What I was commenting on, is how/why someone can play something flawlessly when they aren't thinking about it, but struggle when they do.

But to continue playing devil's advocate, very little of what your brain does is in your awareness. Almost all of your entire brain's functions are going on automatically. You're awareness is only a tiny fraction of a percent of everything that actually makes up "you." To that end, even an accomplished jazz pianist who is known for improvisation, can improvise on "autopilot." I know this from personal experience (not that I'm accomplished haha), but I have a bajillion types of movements and fingering that I've done in a bajillion different keys, that when playing with a band it's no problem for me to fallow along and "make it up" as I go. Very little thought needs to go into it. Even when I'm having to modulate by ear, all of that, based on experience, happens automatically.

When I do something with my hands that's become an in-grained movement, that I can do in my sleep with no thought, then I can easily modify it without messing up, consciously. I'm sure it's no different for a concert pianist who has to modify in general how they play based on the piano and the other performers. Of course your conscious awareness plays a big role, and it definitely works with the automatic, instinctual movements, but I would argue strongly that it plays a much lesser role.

[nyiregyhazi]

But to continue playing devil's advocate, very little of what your brain does is in your awareness. Almost all of your entire brain's functions are going on automatically. You're awareness is only a tiny fraction of a percent of everything that actually makes up "you." To that end, even an accomplished jazz pianist who is known for improvisation, can improvise on "autopilot."

Sure- I think this is where having the choice is so important, though. Many people think the less awareness the better- but it's because their ability is so superficial that they get better results this way. They don't tackle the things that they need to develop head on, but merely try not to think- which leaves all of their holes in place. Conversely, a really effective pianist has tackled all of these things in practise and come to understand a variety of different viewpoints. For that pianist, when they seem not to be thinking, all of those underlying skills are still bubbling under the surface. Somtimes they'll think more, sometimes they'll just do it- but there are no suprises in store either way. However, for most pianists who think they are better off not thinking about what they get confused by, no such ability exists- and they instantly fall apart if the physical habit slides (as well as playing with minimal control of their sound, due to the intent not to think about what they are actually doing but to instead follow mere physical habits). Only experienced artists should be deciding that instincts are already good enough and that anything else is "interference".

(just to clarify, I'm speaking primarily about classical)

[hmpiano]

What I was commenting on, is how/why someone can play something flawlessly when they aren't thinking about it, but struggle when they do.

Because you notice stuff you didn't before and it's surprising.  The auto-pilot knows stuff you don't.

[faulty_damper]

I think my question is how do you get from the simply just thinking to the doing?

It's the same way you think about typing and then just type.  But most of what you type has been well-practiced.  The order of words is different, but the spellings are the same.

Also, I'm not that great of a typer since I make numerous errors.  If there isn't a delete key, it would read terribly.  But since I don't consciously practice my typing, my typing has been relatively poor for many years.  It's about the same as it was two years ago with the advantage that I don't have to think about where the delete key is.  When I see and error, my fourth finger of my right hand hits that key automatically.

[hmpiano]

It's the same way you think about typing and then just type.  

There's definitely something missing inbetween there. 

[faulty_damper]

Are you asking about the physiological principles?  As in, how do the muscles know when to contract?

[hmpiano]

Are you asking about the physiological principles?  As in, how do the muscles know when to contract?

I suppose.  Like the the bit after "I want to play this note" and before muscle contraction.

[faulty_damper]

So after thinking about execution but before a nerve signal is sent down the spinal cord?

[hmpiano]

So after thinking about execution but before a nerve signal is sent down the spinal cord?

Sure.

[faulty_damper]

Not certain.  The lateral and premotor cortex are responsible for practiced movements.  This area of the brain sends the signals to activate muscles.

I think your question may mean what is the connection between conscious thought and actual movement.  But there may be a misunderstanding between consciousness and a physical action.

Neuroscientists aren't sure what regions of the brain are responsible for consciousness.  It's not one area of the brain but many, and since the brain is interconnected, a single thought can interact with multiple areas of the brain.  Consciousness is most probably localized in the cerebrum and not in any of the lower brain regions like the cerebellum or mid brain.

But if I were to speculate, the lateral and premotor cortex is the area of conscious thought about movement.  It's not separate from your consciousness since it is part of your consciousness.