Confuse over major, minor, harmonic and melodic.

[dove]

hi there,

 I'm very confused over major, minor, harmonic and melodic. Does anyone have any idea how to differeniate them? Especially find the relative major from minor.

 I'm now is grade 3, does anyone can introduce to me some webs that can help me in these terms?

[Daevren]

Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
(natural/relative) minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic minor ascending: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Melodic minor descending: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

You see that the major scale is the point of reference. The major scale has a 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 structure when it comes to semitones. Just look at C major, all the white keys. The b means a flat. Memorise the intervals of the major scale. See them on the site below.

https://www.chordwizard.com/theory.html
https://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

In jazz, with melodic minor they always mean the ascending version.

The difference between relative minor and major is the tonal center. They have the same notes, but different hierarchy. Thats what tonal music is. Seven notes in a hierarchy.

In major and (relative) minor all the notes have totally different functions because the notes make different intervals with the tonic. A note that is a strong constant in major might be a soft dissonant that wants to resolve in minor.

Thats also what modes are. Every asymmetrical scale has modes. The number of modes is equal to the number of notes in the scale, every note can be (artificially) made the tonic.

A major scale is the most natural and perfect scale/mode. It is the closest to the natural overtones created by the laws of physics/the laws that govern our universe. So every combination of all the white keys on the piano want to become C major. In that case C dominates, C is the strongest note, the resting point, the home note, the C chord is the chord everything resolves to.

You can also make the A note the tonic. That is a minor. Now a minor is pretty strong, the second strongest, so it can avoid becomming C major.

You can also make D, E F G and B tonic. All those versions create their own intervallic structures and have their own sounds. Some are very weak. They all have those greek names. C major and a minor also have a modal greek name.

Of course, you can transpose this to every key signature.

Then scales like harmonic minor, melodic minor(up) and harmonic major also have modes, they are assymmetrical. Those are all new scales, all different from the others.

[Indigo]

How old are you?

The simplistic way to figure the whole scale thing out is to think of it in tones and semitones or what 'mericans call wholetones and half tones.  A tone is represented by T and a Semitone by ST.

The major scale is in this pattern

T T ST T T T ST

The relative minor scale of a major scale is found by counting six notes up from the tonic, otherwise known as the first note of the major scale.  This will also work if you count down three.  So C majors relative minor is A Minor.

The Harmonic minor pattern is

T ST T T ST T1/2 ST

This one is slightly different as the seventh note of the scale must be raised by half (1/2) a tone (which is a semitone) so in A harmonic minor that doesn't have any flats or sharps the G is raised to G sharp.  Play the scale with the natural G and then the G sharp and you will see the difference it makes.  The scale you play with the natural G is called the  minor scale and the harmonic minor is called harmonic because it is... harmonic . :-/

Melodic is different again.  It is the minor scale but instead of just raising the seventh note you also raise the sixth note.  However this is only on the way up.  On the way down you lower both the sixth and seventh.

So the pattern is

Up T ST T T T T ST and then down starting T T ST T T ST T

To clarify this the notes of the G melodic minor scale are

Up  G A Bb C D E F# G   Down  Fnat Eb D C Bb A G

[Daevren]

"and the harmonic minor is called harmonic because it is... harmonic. "

Its called harmonic because if you only have the major seventh you sacrifice melody for harmony. With the major seventh you have a major V degree, so you can get a perfect cadence on the tonic. But the b6 and 7 create a unmelodic(from western perspective) one and a half tone step.

The melodic minor solves the problem in a melodic way.

[Indigo]

Yep...  

I like smileys  

[bernhard]

See reply #11 here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1077735398;start=11

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[dove]

Well.. thanks.. that's clearer now.  

[jlh]

If you're talking about how to find the starting note (root) of a major key from its relative minor, it's simple:

The relative minor is always a minor 3rd interval DOWN(or a major 6th interval UP)  from it's relative major.  So then the RELATIVE minor of C major is A minor.  The NATURAL minor is different in that its root is the same as its major.  Example: The NATURAL minor of C major is C minor.

[bernhard]

If you're talking about how to find the starting note (root) of a major key from its relative minor, it's simple:

The relative minor is always a minor 3rd interval DOWN(or a major 6th interval UP)  from it's relative major.  So then the RELATIVE minor of C major is A minor.  The NATURAL minor is different in that its root is the same as its major.  Example: The NATURAL minor of C major is C minor.

Er...

Daevren said the same thing about the NATURAL minor, but I don't believe this to be correct. The NATURAL minor is simply the aeolian mode, that is, the scale the results if start at the sixth note of any scale without any modifications whatsoever. The minor scale built on the tonic of the major is called the TONIC minor.

So:

C major: CDEFGABC

Natural minor: ABCDEFGA (start on the sixth note of C= A and do not sharp any note, that is, natural A minor has exactly the same notes as C major).

Melodic minor ABCDEF#G#A - AGFEDCBA  (sharp both the 6th and 7th notes of the natural minor on the way up and come down natural)

Harmonic minor: ABCDEF#GA (sharp the 7th note both on the way up and on the way down)

Tonic minor: CDEbFGAbBC (= C minor. In this particular case I have used the harmonic C minor, but you can also have the melodic and natural versions. The relative major of C minor is Ab major - since C is the sixth note of the Ab major scale. It will have Bb, Eb and Ab in its key signature - as you sharp the seventh note - Bb - of Cminor to get the harmonic version, you end up with a B rather than a Bb)

Relative minors are called "relative" because they have exactly the same notes as the major scale. As such they are very closely "related" like brothers. Hence they share the same key signature. The sharps added to the melodic and harmonic versions are truly "accidentals"; artificial impositions from 18th century theoreticians, they are not "natural".

Tonic minors are distant relatives (their key signature is very different - and they share only four common notes) - they are like 2nd or 3rd degree cousins.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Daevren]

We are talking about scales. Scales are characterised by intervallic structures. Tonic minor only makes sense if you talk about modulations and relation between different keys.

There is no scale called 'tonic minor'.

A natural minor scale is always the 6th mode of its parent major scale and is always its relative minor.

But its also part of the 'tonic minor' of the major scale starting on the same root.

So jlh is correct: A minor is the relative minor of C major while C minor is the natural minor of C major.

How can you get A B C D E F G is you use the intervallic structure 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and use C as the tonic?

But if we talk about tonal regions we can modulate to and we take a minor. Then C major is the relative major(M), c minor is called tonic major(T), G major is called the dominant(D), G minor is called the five-minor(v), F major is called the subdominant(SD), f minor is called the subdominant minor(sd etc.

So 'tonic minor' is not a scale(or mode), but a tonal region you can modulate to or through. Tonic minor includes the whole set of minor scales, it has the b3 but also both the 6 7 and b6 b7. So if we take C major and we want to talk about its 'tonic minor' tonal region to modulate to we go from the C major scale to the C natural minor, melodic minor(up and down) and harmonic minor.

The term relative minor used to describe natural minor is incorrect and confusing. But its used very often so that is why I included the term. Its important for someone to see that a natural minor always shares all its notes with a major scale.

[jlh]

Yes, you're right of course.  The natural minor is a scale in the aeolian mode.  What I meant to say in place of NATURAL was PARALLEL.  The PARALLEL minor of C major is C Minor.  Sorry for the confusion.

[bernhard]

Yes, you're right of course.  The natural minor is a scale in the aeolian mode.  What I meant to say in place of NATURAL was PARALLEL.  The PARALLEL minor of C major is C Minor.  Sorry for the confusion.

Usually I don't really care for terminology. I am happy to use whatever terminology people wnat to use provided they define what they mean to start with. The only reason I picked on it was because I had the impression the original poster might be taking an exam, and then of course these things matter.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[dove]

erm... okay... I'm a bit confused..  

[Daevren]

Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Natural minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic minor ascending: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Melodic minor descending: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Forget the rest. It has nothing to do with the scales.

[bernhard]

erm... okay... I'm a bit confused.. 

No wonder.

So let us clear this confusion once and for all. Read carefully and at the end you should be able to make sense of all the posts above and realise that everyone is basically saying the same thing but from different starting points.

Start with only white notes – this was the situation in the Middle Ages when it all started: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

This is our C major scale. In medieval times it was called the Ionian mode.

The notes are not equally spaced: between E and F and between B and C there is only half a tone, while between the other notes there are 2 semitones (or 1 tone).

This means:

Between C-D = 2 semitones (or one tone)
Between D-E = 2 semitones (or one tone)
Between E-F = 1 semitones (or half tone)
Between F-G = 2 semitones (or one tone)
Between G-A = 2 semitones (or one tone)
Between A-B = 2 semitones (or one tone)
Between B-C = 1 semitones (or half tone)

You can see that there are 8 notes in this scale and 7 intervals i.e. “distances” in between them.

The C major scale can therefore be written in two ways:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Or

1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ (1 = tone; ½= semitone)

You could also do (as Daevren did):

2 – 2 – 1 – 2 – 2 – 2 – 1 (1=semitone; 2= tone)

or as Indigo did:

T – T – S – T – T – T – S (T = tone; S= semitone)

These are all basically the same, just a different terminology is being used. It is never worth or useful to discuss terminology. Just accept the terminology – provided it has been defined beforehand. So there should be no confusion so far.

You could also say instead of

C- D- E- F – G – A – B – C

or

do – re- mi – fa – sol – la – ti – do

However, why start on C? could we not start on D? Well go to the piano and play:

D – E – F – G – A – B – C – D

It sounds weird, does it not? You cannot immediately recognise it as a pattern in the same way that you can

C- D – E – F – G – A – B – C

The reason why you cannot quite recognise it and it sounds sort of strange is twofold: First you are not used to it, while you are very used to the sound of C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, second and very importantly the interval pattern (tones and semitones) now changes to:

1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ - 1  (or if you prefer 2 – 1 – 2 – 2 – 2 – 1 – 2 ; or again if you prefer T – S – T – T – T – S – T ).

Don’t assume that there is something particularly “superior” about the major scale from C – C. There is not. It is just one amongst many choices. In fact during the middle ages, the D – D scale (or Dorian mode) was far more used than the C – C (Ionian mode), and if you played a C- C scale people would find it as strange as you find today the D – D scale (I am calling them scales, but the proper term is “mode”). In fact, in the East the C – C scale is very uncommon. I have many Chinese students, and when playing the C major scale they usually stop at the B or at the D, since they do not have the same familiarity as we do. For them the final C does not sound at all like a resolution. To them – much to my amazement, finishing the scale on a B or on a D seems perfectly all right.

Now there is no reason not to start the scale at any note, and people have done so:

Ionian mode (our C major scale):
C – D - E – F – G – A – B – C with the interval pattern 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½

Dorian mode (no modern equivalent)
D – E – F – G – A – B – C – D with the interval pattern 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ - 1

Phrygian mode (no modern equivalent)
E – F – G – A – B – C – D - E with the interval pattern ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1

Lydian mode (no modern equivalent)
F – G – A – B – C – D – E - F with the interval pattern 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½

Mixolydian mode (no modern equivalent)
G – A – B – C – D – E – F - G with the interval pattern 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1

Aeolian mode (relative minor scale)
A – B – C – D – E – F – G - A with the interval pattern 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1

Locrian mode (historically was never used)
B – C – D – E – F – G – A - B with the interval pattern ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1

From the 16th century onwards for reasons that will take too long to describe, most of the modes fell into disuse, and the Ionian and to a less extent the Aeolian mode were the only modes left in use. Black keys (sharps and flats) also made their appearance, and after a lot of turmoil and compromise, the 12 notes of the scale as we know it now came into being (remember a time when you could get videos in VHS format and also BETAMAX, and for several reasons Betamax disappeared and VHS prevailed? The 15th and 16th centuries were times of similar ambiguity until by the 18th century tonality based on the Ionian and Aeolian modes – our major and minor scales was firmly established).

The important point here is this, and you must not get this confused:

The major scale follows a interval pattern of the form 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½. This sequence is what defines a major scale. It is as simple as that. Any sequence of notes that follows this interval pattern is a major scale. If you go to the piano and start on any note, and follow the 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ pattern starting on any key (there are twelve keys) you end up with the twelve major scales.

The minor scale on the other hand follow the pattern: 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1. This is the sequence that defines a minor scale. If you start on any note of the piano and follow this sequence you will get the 12 minor scales. To make it simple we will use A minor as as example since it only has white keys: A – B – C – D – E – F – G – A.

However, there are three different forms of the minor scale. The one above , which is the original one and is therefore called “natural” minor scale. And another two forms which were “artificially created” in the 17th century for theoretical reasons. Why were these two forms created?

Let us have another look at the major scale pattern of intervals:

1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½.

Notice that between the two last notes of the scale (B and C in the case of the C major scale), there is a semitone interval. This means that there is a very strong pull towards C once you play B. The B “wants” to become C, since they are so close.

However if you look at the natural minor scale pattern: (let us use as an example the A minor scale because it has only white keys: A – B – C – D – E – F – G – A)

1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1

you can see that the last two notes (G – A) are separated by a whole tone. Musically the “pull” towards the last note is far weaker. Melodically this makes a very big difference. So 17th centuries theoreticians came up with a brilliant idea: make the last interval a half tone by sharping the 7th note (G# - A), and as a consequence the previous interval (F – G) becomes increased of a half tone (F – G#). So you end up with the following pattern:

1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½

(or in the A minor example: A – B – C – D – E – F – G# - A)

But this creates a huge 1+1/2 interval between notes 6 and 7 of the scale (F – G#), so they went one step further and distributed the extra semitone to the previous interval by sharping the 6th note as well (F), so that the pattern became:

1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½
(or in the A minor example: A – B – C – D – F# - G# - A)

Because the melodic pull is only important when ascending (the G wants to become A, the G# wants to become A even more strongly, but there is no desire from the part of the A to become either G or G#  - go to the piano and verify that this is so), they did not bother with any of that for the descending scale, they left as it was in the natural minor scale.

This new scale they called the “melodic minor scale”. When you ascend you sharp the 6th and 7th note of the “natural minor” scale (you sharp the 7th note to create a semitone between the 7th and 8th note and you sharp the 6th note to even out the intervals). When descending you just use the natural minor scale, that is you do not sharp anything. Because such alterations are completely artificial, these sharps are not part of the key signature. Moreover, even in scales with flat key signatures, you still use sharps on the melodic (and harmonic as we shall see) versions of the minor scale.

So are you with me so far?

Natural minor scale: 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1

(ex.: natural A minor: A – B – C – D – E – F – G – A)

Melodic minor scale: ascending - 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½
Descending – 1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1- ½ - 1

(ex. : melodic A minor: ascending – A – B – C – D – E – F# - G# - A
descending: A – G – F – E – D – C – B – A)

Go to the piano and play these two versions of the A minor scale (natural and melodic) and listen to what they sound like.

Finally a last form of the minor scale was created by simply sharping the 7th note on both the way up and down. This is called the “harmonic minor scale” because it does not concern melodic lines but rather several notes being played together – something that was just start to catch musician’s imaginations in the 17th century – and which would eventually completely replace counterpoint ( which concerns different “horizontal” melodic lines rather than “vertical” harmonic intervals). In harmony (as opposed to melody) the huge interval created by the sharping of the 7th note is mainly irrelevant, and so is the question of the “pulling” of the 7th note towards the 8th note.

So in a “harmonic minor” form, the sequence is: 1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½
Both ascending and descending.

Or using A minor harmonic as an example: A – B – C – D – E – F – G# - A.

So this should sort out the matter of “natural” “harmonic” and “melodic” minor.

[to be continued]

[bernhard]

Now we must sort out a different matter altogether, and this is the question of the “relative” minor. The relative minor of a major scale is simply the Aeolian mode of that scale. (either in its original form – “natural minor”, or in its modified forms: “melodic minor” and “harmonic minor”). Simply go to the 6th note of the major scale, consider that as the first note of the minor scale and using exactly the same notes build a scale. If you leave it as it is, you will have the “natural minor” scale which is not very used. If you sharp the 6th and 7th note when ascending but leave the notes untouched when descending you have the “melodic minor” form of the scale. If you sharp the 7th note on both ascending and descending you have the “harmonic form” of the minor scale.

Let us give some examples:
[continued from previous post]

C major scale: C – D – E – F – G – A – B – C (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ )

To find the relative minor go to the 6th note (A) and start the scale from there:

A minor (natural) scale: A – B – C – D – E – F – G – A (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1)

To get the melodic form sharp the 6th (F) and 7th (G) note of this new scale when ascending, but not when descending:

A minor (melodic form): ascending - A – B – C – D – E – F# - G# - A
(1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½)
Descending – A – G – F – E – D – C – B – A (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1- ½ - 1)

To get the harmonic form sharp the 7th note (G) both ascending and descending:

A minor (harmonic form): A – B – C – D – E – F – G# - A (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½)

Ok. Now let us see another scale, for instance D major:

D major scale: D – E – F# - G – A – B – C# - D (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ )

To find the relative minor go to the 6th note (B) and start the scale from there:

B minor (natural) scale: B – C# – D – E – F# – G – A - B (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1). Notice that B minor uses exactly the same notes as D major: they share the key signature of F# and C#.

To get the melodic form sharp the 6th (G) and 7th (A) note of this new scale when ascending, but not when descending:

B minor (melodic form): ascending - B – C# – D – E – F# - G# - A# - B
(1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½)
Descending – B - A – G – F# – E – D – C# – B (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1- ½ - 1)

Notice that now this form of the minor scale has introduced two notes that do not exist in D major (G# and A#). However, the key signature of B minor is not altered: it is still F# and C# because this alteration is an artificial one. G# and A# are considered “accidents” – not part of the scale’s basic structure.

To get the harmonic form sharp the 7th note (A) both ascending and descending:

D minor (harmonic form): B – C# – D – E – F# – G – A# - B (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½).

Again we can see that this form of the minor scale does not share anymore the same notes of D major. A# has been introduced. However, this is an artificial modification and the A# is considered an “accidental” and as such it does not appear in the key signature which continues to be the same as D major: F# and C#.

What if we have a flat scale? The same procedure applies. Consider Bb major:

Bb major scale: Bb – C – D – Eb – F – G – A - Bb (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ )

To find the relative minor go to the 6th note (G) and start the scale from there:

G minor (natural) scale: G – A - Bb – C – D – Eb – F – G  (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1). Notice that G minor uses exactly the same notes as Bb major: they share the key signature of Bb and Eb.

To get the melodic form sharp the 6th (Eb) and 7th (F) note of this new scale when ascending, but not when descending (when you sharp Eb it becomes E natural):

G minor (melodic form): ascending – G – A - Bb – C – D – E – F# - G
(1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½)
Descending – G – F – Eb – D – C – Bb – A - G (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1- ½ - 1)

Notice that now this form of the minor scale has introduced two notes that do not exist in Bb major (E and F#). However, the key signature of G minor is not altered: it is still Bb and Eb because this alteration is an artificial one. E and F# are considered “accidents” – not part of the scale’s basic structure.

To get the harmonic form sharp the 7th note (F) both ascending and descending:

G minor (harmonic form): G – A - Bb – C – D – Eb – F# – G (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½).

Again we can see that this form of the minor scale does not share anymore the same notes of Bb major. F# has been introduced. However, this is an artificial modification and the F# is considered an “accidental” and as such it does not appear in the key signature which continues to be the same as Bb major: Bb and Eb.

Also notice that even though both Bb major and G minor are “flat” scales, in their harmonic and melodic forms they will have sharps introduced.

So finding the relative minor scale of a major scale is really finding the minor scale with the same key signature of the major scale. You can either count six notes up from the first note of the major scale, or as… suggested, count three notes down.

This also means that you cannot tell the key of a piece simply by its key signature: the key signature always gives you two choices: a major or its relative minor scale. So no key signature can mean either C major of A minor. A key signature with Bb and Eb can be either Bb major or G minor. You get the idea.

Now I want you to give one last example to clarify once and for all what I believe is the source of all the confusion. Let us consider the Eb major scale:

Eb major scale: Eb – F – G – Ab – Bb – C – D - Eb (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 – ½ )

To find the relative minor go to the 6th note (C) and start the scale from there:

C minor (natural) scale: C – D – Eb – F – G – Ab – Bb - C  (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1 – 1). Notice that C minor uses exactly the same notes as Eb major: they share the key signature of Bb, Eb and Ab.

To get the melodic form sharp the 6th (Ab) and 7th (Bb) note of this new scale when ascending, but not when descending (when you sharp Ab and Bb they become A  and B natural):

C minor (melodic form): ascending C – D – Eb – F – G – A – B - C
(1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – 1 - 1 – ½)
Descending – C – Bb – Ab – G – F – Eb – D- C (1 – 1- ½ - 1 – 1- ½ - 1)

Notice that now this form of the minor scale has introduced two notes that do not exist in Eb major (A and B). However, the key signature of C minor is not altered: it is still Bb, Eb and Ab because this alteration is an artificial one. E and A are considered “accidents” – not part of the scale’s basic structure.

To get the harmonic form sharp the 7th note (Bb) both ascending and descending:

C minor (harmonic form): C – D – Eb – F – G – Ab – B - C (1 – ½ - 1 – 1 – ½ - 1+1/2 – ½).

Again we can see that this form of the minor scale does not share anymore the same notes of Eb major. B natural has been introduced. However, this is an artificial modification and the B natural is considered an “accidental” and as such it does not appear in the key signature which continues to be the same as Eb major: Bb. Eb and Ab.

Now comes a major source of confusion. The scales of C major and C minor are note “related in the sense above. They simply share the starting notes, and names. But they could not be more different.

A relative scale is one that shares the same notes, and consequently the same key signature. C major has no sharps or flats in its key signature. C minor has 3 flats in its key signature. C major’s “relative” minor is A minor; C minor’ relative major is Eb major.

Of course, the first note of a scale is its most important note, so C major and C minor will have a great degree of affinity. I call them “tonic” because they share the tonic (that is, C minor is the “tonic” minor of C major, while A minor is its “relative minor”). But I really don’t care that much for terminology. Jlh Called them “parallels” and this is absolutely fine (C minor is the parallel minor of C major, while A minor is C major’s relative minor).

The important point here is not to confuse scales that share the same name (and therefore the same tonic – first note) but little else, with scales who come from the same parenthood so to speak, scales that share all the same notes and the same key signature. These are the “relative” scales.

Now if you go back to the posts in this thread, you should be able to see that there are no contradictions, just different posters are coming from different directions.

So look at Daevren Summary:

Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Natural minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic minor ascending: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Melodic minor descending: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7


Basically he is comparing scales of the same name, rather than “relative” scales, e.g. C major and C minor. Let us replace the number notes with the actual notes and you will see what I mean:

Major: C – D – E – F – G – A – B
Natural minor: C – D – Eb – F – G – Ab – Bb
[yes, this is the natural version of C minor, that is, the Aeolian mode of Eb major, that is, the scale taken from Eb major (its relative major) by starting at the 6th note. But this does not mean that C minor is the “natural minor” of C major. Can you see the difference?]
Harmonic minor: C – D – Eb – F – G – Ab – B
[yes, indeed this is the harmonic version of C minor – where the 7th note (Bb) has been sharped to B.]
Melodic minor ascending – C – D – Eb – F – G – A – B
Melodic minor descending - C – D – Eb – F – G – Ab – Bb

As a consequence, his formula uses flats, which although handy and neat, do not actually reflect the evolution and the notation you will be using in classical music. Therefore it is better to relate major scales to their “relative” minors, rather than the “same-name” minors, and not to think in terms of flats, but in terms of sharping the 6th and 7th notes (melodic) or only the 7th (harmonic), since this is the convention used in music scores and that is how you will identify modulations.

So everyone is right.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Daevren]

Why would one relate a piece in C minor to Eb major? Eb major has nothing to do with C minor.

It might not reflext the evolution of music theory but that is how it is today. The modes evolved in two key qualities, major and minor. And minor has its own key signature. And yes, you sharp notes to get 6 and 7. Thats how you can recognise a minor piece in some cases.

And the whole 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 formula, I don't know if its used often in classical music. But b6 doesn't mean its a flattened note on paper, it only means its a minor sixth, or more correctly a flattened major sixth. It has nothing to do with music notation. Its just comparing intervals to the standard set by the major scale.

Comparing parallel scales is the only way to see a clear difference. Explaining modes by listing all the modes of the major scale seems to be very confusing to most people. They won't understand the difference if you aren't careful.

I wonder how you memorise 15 scales and 60 chords when you relate everything in the way music evolved.

*Wonders if he is 'attacking' classical pedagogic traditions."

[dove]

Hmm.. that's much clearer now. Thanks! By the way, just curious, Bernhard, did you type all this things in the forum? If you really did, well, thanks a lot, it much have taken you a lot of time! 

[bernhard]

Why would one relate a piece in C minor to Eb major? Eb major has nothing to do with C minor.

Er… Have you read my post?

The short version is: because a major scale and its relative minor are as close as you can get: they share exactly the same notes (in the natural form) and they share the same key signature. Eb major has everything to do with C minor.

It might not reflext the evolution of music theory but that is how it is today. The modes evolved in two key qualities, major and minor.

Understanding how something got to be what it is today is one of the best ways to truly understand a subject. Difficulties experienced along history are always the difficulties a student experiences. Showing how such difficulties were dealt with historically is the most powerful method to teach a student to deal with the same difficulties. Avoid the historical approach and you will end up teaching a student solutions for problems he cannot understand or bother to solve.  A similar misguided attempt was made in the 60s to teach “modern mathematics” by starting from set theory: a solution to a problem that had no relevance for children or beginners.  It basically destroyed mathematical education – we have not recovered yet from that particular pedagogical blunder.

And minor has its own key signature. And yes, you sharp notes to get 6 and 7. Thats how you can recognise a minor piece in some cases.

Er… I would be very interested if you could provide an example of a minor key with its own key signature…

Comparing parallel scales is the only way to see a clear difference. Explaining modes by listing all the modes of the major scale seems to be very confusing to most people. They won't understand the difference if you aren't careful.

In this universe there are no “only ways” There are always several paths leading to the top of the mountain.

I wonder how you memorise 15 scales and 60 chords when you relate everything in the way music evolved.

I am not sure what you mean by 15 scales. If you mean scales in general there are thousands of scales. If you mean major/minor scales there are only 24.

The same is true about chords. If you mean by chord several notes played together, then there are thousands. If you mean major and minor triads there are only 24 (12 major and 12 minor).

I myself I do not memorise chords, but rather their rules of formation.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

What is the "formation of chords?"

Um...feel free to expand as much as necessary.

[Daevren]

Er… Have you read my post?

Of course.

The short version is: because a major scale and its relative minor are as close as you can get: they share exactly the same notes (in the natural form) and they share the same key signature. Eb major has everything to do with C minor.

Yes, they share notes, but they are totally different. The tonal hierarchy is way different. And thats what counts. C minor has more to do with A minor than Eb major. A piece in C minor can easily be transposed to A minor, but the Eb major, thats totally different. The fact they share notes is not that important. The fact that back in the days minor only was the 6th mode of the Aeolian scale is also not important.

Understanding how something got to be what it is today is one of the best ways to truly understand a subject.

I remember Feynman talking about physics pedagogy. There was a big discussion how to teach physics. Physics of course has evolved far more extreme than music(probably math too). Do we teach the wrong things first? Do we teach classical physics? Of do we teach things how we know they really are? Of course, if you take history and experiment you get a real feel for physics, but you are learning the wrong laws. You get to understand the way of thinking. And then you learn them the right way.

Well actually, only if you are going to study physics. If you don't you are in the illusion the universe is the total opposite of the way we now thing it is.

I personally feel that we teach people the way we think today, althought I don't have the teaching experience you have.

Er… I would be very interested if you could provide an example of a minor key with its own key signature…

You don't write a minor piece in the C signature(C major), you write it in the C minor key. Well, you want to call it an Eb major key. Writing a minor piece in the Eb/Cm key to me means that C minor has its own signature.

In this universe there are no “only ways” There are always several paths leading to the top of the mountain.

That was not the point. If you compare parallel scales you can see the difference in terms of quality, intervals, sounds. If you compare Eb major to C minor people wonder, "Whats the difference, its the same notes."

 

I am not sure what you mean by 15 scales. If you mean scales in general there are thousands of scales. If you mean major/minor scales there are only 24.

Fifhteen different scales. Those 12 major and 12 minor scales are all the same scale. Same with chords.

I myself I do not memorise chords, but rather their rules of formation.

That was the point.


Spatula, it means how to construct a chord. We take a major chord: 1 3 5. We want a minor chord, well thats 1 b3 5, so we lower the third note of the major chord. We want a diminished chord, we lower the fifth note, because a diminished chord has a diminished fifth(b5). Add another third on top of the fifth to get seventh chords. Same rules apply. Also for all the altered dominant shapes: D7, D9, D7b9, D7#5, DS7b5, D7#9, D9b5, D11 etc. You can relate them back to the plain D7 or the plain major chord pretty easily.  If you relate to a D7b5#9 back to where it came from following the evolution in history you are quite busy:

Its a chord borrowed from the locrian b4 aka altered dominant aka diminished whole tone, a mode parallel to the mixolydian mode, the fifth mode of the major scale. Its the seventh mode of (the ascending version) of melodic minor.
Which it a natural minor scale with the raised 6th and 7th, raised to give a perfect cadence on the tonic, which is the Aeolian mode, which is the sixth mode of the major scale. Which has the interval structure W W H W W W H.

Its true, its fun to know, it makes a nice bed time story, but imo it isn't very practical way to think.

[jlh]

AHHHHH!!!!  Everyone has their opinion, but I'm seeing them all leading the same way.  I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. =)

[Daevren]

Thats true

I am interested in Bernards response though.

[l_ricks]

Er… Have you read my post?

Of course.

The short version is: because a major scale and its relative minor are as close as you can get: they share exactly the same notes (in the natural form) and they share the same key signature. Eb major has everything to do with C minor.

Yes, they share notes, but they are totally different. The tonal hierarchy is way different. And thats what counts. C minor has more to do with A minor than Eb major. A piece in C minor can easily be transposed to A minor, but the Eb major, thats totally different. The fact they share notes is not that important. The fact that back in the days minor only was the 6th mode of the Aeolian scale is also not important.

Daevren...I think what Bernhard is saying is geared toward modal changes. To a point, yes it boils down to what you like, but correct me if I'm wrong (I am an amateur).

-To do a modal change from Major to Minor you would base it off the VI of the scale. 
-To do a modal change from Minor to Major you would base it off the III of the scale.

I'm pretty sure you know you scales, but that how I see Eb and Cm scales being relative