Hidden secrets to effortless reading skills

[nyiregyhazi]

Although there are hundreds of sites explaining the basics of reading skills, I think the perspective on offer here might be of interest to people. It's not just a list of what you need to learn, but about what I believe is the simplest way to truly absorb the foundations of reading as fast as possible.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/solid-foundation-reading-skills-lifting.html

Any opinions would be of interest.

[j_menz]

All good so far.

My only quibble is that I question the emphasis on learning the note names ahead of a focus on learning them as keys on the keyboard.  That may be a perspective thing - I'm sure I learnt it that way too, but these days I skip that step.

[outin]

My only quibble is that I question the emphasis on learning the note names ahead of a focus on learning them as keys on the keyboard.  That may be a perspective thing - I'm sure I learnt it that way too, but these days I skip that step.

I never did learn that... I can look at the note and go to the key. I can also name the keys when I look at the keyboad. But it takes me a while to name a note on the staff and if my teacher tells me to play a note by name, I'm completely out there...

[nyiregyhazi]

All good so far.

My only quibble is that I question the emphasis on learning the note names ahead of a focus on learning them as keys on the keyboard.  That may be a perspective thing - I'm sure I learnt it that way too, but these days I skip that step.

Although I see your point, I've come to think that letter based thinking is actually a huge aid to properly associating a notated pitch to a key. The danger of losing letters is that students only think of going up a finger or down one. Had their hand begun a key higher, they might not have noticed any difference. With thought of a letter, they're tying in an extra connection- between the letter and the key it represents. It adds greater likelihood of awareness if you tie in letters strongly early on and takes it beyond going up and down a number of fingers. Ultimately that can lead to more awareness of how notation is tied to keyboard geography than if there's no thought of letters at all. The important thing is that letters are associated to piano keys and that every note on the score can be equally associated to a letter or a piano key direct. It should never be finding a letter and then translating to a piano key after- but part of the same thing.

[j_menz]

Although I see your point, I've come to think that letter based thinking is actually a huge aid to properly associating a notated pitch to a key. The danger of losing letters is that students only think of going up a finger or down one. Had their hand begun a key higher, they might not have noticed any difference. With thought of a letter, they're tying in an extra connection- between the letter and the key it represents. It adds greater likelihood of awareness if you tie in letters strongly early on and takes it beyond going up and down a number of fingers. Ultimately that can lead to more awareness of how notation is tied to keyboard geography than if there's no thought of letters at all. The important thing is that letters are associated to piano keys and that every note on the score can be equally associated to a letter or a piano key direct. It should never be finding a letter and then translating to a piano key after- but part of the same thing.

That sounds more than reasonable. Quibble gone!

[outin]

Although I see your point, I've come to think that letter based thinking is actually a huge aid to properly associating a notated pitch to a key. The danger of losing letters is that students only think of going up a finger or down one. Had their hand begun a key higher, they might not have noticed any difference.

This I guess could happen. I notice a wrong note immediately if I know what I am going to play or have heard the piece before. When doing sight reading exercises I do sometimes read wrong and it takes a few notes to realize that everything is not how it should be.

But isn't thinking one finger (or more) up or down just what you should do when playing? Anything else would just take too much time?

[j_menz]

But isn't thinking one finger (or more) up or down just what you should do when playing? Anything else would just take too much time?

In some respects, but in the longer run you need to associate whole blocks of notes with particular positions on the keyboard, both in order to read "words" rather than "letters" (ie, chords (vertically) and figures (horizontally)) but also because there may be quite large leaps between these where counting is simply not practicable.

[outin]

In some respects, but in the longer run you need to associate whole blocks of notes with particular positions on the keyboard, both in order to read "words" rather than "letters" (ie, chords (vertically) and figures (horizontally)) but also because there may be quite large leaps between these where counting is simply not practicable.

Of course you need to do both. But inside the words you would still (unconsciously) think one/more finger up or down, not abc, would you not?

Why one would need to know the letter/letters of the note to find the block or position on the keyboard?

EDIT: Not trying to start an argument, rather trying to find out whether my approach has been flawed...

[ajspiano]

Why one would need to know the letter/letters of the note to find the block or position on the keyboard?

For the same reason that we teach young kids to "sound out" written words phonetically? its a first step in dealing with bigger pictures you don't initially recognise.

A beginner has to read each note, consider its name, find the key etc..

a more experienced pianist knows the key signature and sees a stack of 3rds as a chord, but the reading each note has to come first..

[j_menz]

Of course you need to do both. But inside the words you would still (unconsciously) think one/more finger up or down, not abc, would you not?

Eventually, neither. You would think of sound, position and movement.

Why one would need to know the letter/letters of the note to find the block or position on the keyboard?

EDIT: Not trying to start an argument, rather trying to find out whether my approach has been flawed...

1) So when your teacher yells "E, THAT'S AN E FOR PITY'S SAKE!" you'll know what is meant.

2) So you get the hang of chords properly; CEG is the same finger setup as DFA, but they are really very different chords. It's not just about where your fingers are, it's about intervals and their relationship to the key you are in.

[outin]

For the same reason that we teach young kids to "sound out" written words phonetically? its a first step in dealing with bigger pictures you don't initially recognise.

I am an exceptionally fast reader when it comes to text. I never learned to spell first (still cannot very well), I just learned to read. BTW. It is considered very inefficient to read text by saying the words out loud or say them in your mind.


I have actually tried the letter approach too, I once wrote EVERY single note of a Chopin ballade down just as an exercise (could never play it). I did get better at it while doing it, but after a while I was back as I was, I could not name the notes any better than before. Just don’t think my brain is wired that way.

[ajspiano]

I am an exceptionally fast reader when it comes to text. I never learned to spell first (still cannot very well), I just learned to read. BTW. It is considered very inefficient to read text by saying the words out loud or say them in your mind.

I wasnt suggesting you learn to spell first, I'm talking about learning to read.. How do you deal with a word you don't recognize?

French - crise de jalousie

How do you pronounce it? ...I'm assuming you don't speak french..

[outin]

1) So when your teacher yells "E, THAT'S AN E FOR PITY'S SAKE!" you'll know what is meant.

That's a good argument, I admit
But doesn't really happen much, because I usually notice mistakes myself immediately...

2) So you get the hang of chords properly; CEG is the same finger setup as DFA, but they are really very different chords. It's not just about where your fingers are, it's about intervals and their relationship to the key you are in.

Have to think about this... I always though it's enough to recognice the chord/the notes that make it on the staff and then just play it. Then again I'm really bad at reading chords so you may have a point here

[outin]

I wasnt suggesting you learn to spell first, I'm talking about learning to read.. How do you deal with a word you don't recognize?

French - crise de jalousie

How do you pronounce it? ...I'm assuming you don't speak french..

Even when I don't speak the language at all I still don't need to read the individual letters to make up a pronounciation (even though faulty). As long as it is in the same letter system.

So I guess this is just something I can do, while not everyone can. And I just instinctively try to do the same when reading music.

[ajspiano]

Even when I don't speak the language at all I still don't need to read the individual letters to make up a pronounciation (even though faulty). As long as it is in the same letter system.

So I guess this is just something I can do, while not everyone can. And I just instinctively try to do the same when reading music.

Yes, but you probably subconsciously read letter groupings.. 

..hmm..

Say you didnt know the english word, "tough" because you were unfamiliar with the "ough" combination. You would have to read ough as individuals, and make a brain connection as to the sound they make together. This would be difficult if you didnt first have names atleast for the letters by themselves. Not impossible, but you would then have problems dealing with other instances of those letters if not in the context of "ough".

Its a difficult parallel to draw on because as adults we are all well past the necessity to read individual letters for spoken languages here.

[j_menz]

Say you didnt know the english word, "tough" because you were unfamiliar with the "ough" combination. You would have to read ough as individuals, and make a brain connection as to the sound they make together. This would be difficult if you didnt first have names atleast for the letters by themselves. Not impossible, but you would then have problems dealing with other instances of those letters if not in the context of "ough".

Is that "ough" as in cough, though, through or ought?  I'm afraid I've missed your point here. 

[lostinidlewonder]

The "hidden secret" helps beginners effortlessly read space notes and count. Great work.

[outin]

Yes, but you probably subconsciously read letter groupings..  

..hmm..

Say you didnt know the english word, "tough" because you were unfamiliar with the "ough" combination. You would have to read ough as individuals, and make a brain connection as to the sound they make together. This would be difficult if you didnt first have names atleast for the letters by themselves. Not impossible, but you would then have problems dealing with other instances of those letters if not in the context of "ough".

Now here I think I benefit because of my language. My language is different from English, French and many others. It is prounounced and spelled very much the same way. So I think the way we learn to read after learning to speak may be a different process than it is for English speaking for example. So I would know how to say the word immediately, I would just say it differently than a native speaker.

This is not something I can explain very well, because I'm not a linquistic.

EDIT:

I think the question in your example is whether one is NAMING the letters first or just using them as symbols that can be directly translated into sounds or parts of a word. Just like you can either name the notes first or just use them as symbols to quide you directly into each key.

I agree that a beginner might need to do the first. People like me who are returning, yet with almost zero sight reading skills, but have had some skill before can skip that part. Although I can't remember ever learning the names of the notes very well, even as a child. I mean I of course know the names, but to do it fast just is impossible.

[unholeee]

I find if its too far under the clef (and vice versa) I'm confused - and I just guess at them - I guess I will try not... rather - I will try to... I guess.

[nyiregyhazi]

I find if its too far under the clef (and vice versa) I'm confused - and I just guess at them - I guess I will try not... rather - I will try to... I guess.

I may add an edit about leger lines in more advanced reading. Just start by learning ACE or FACE again for leger lines. I'd personally say that you first need to learn to recognise up to 3 leger lines up or down at sight. Any more and I'd count from those first 3, for now, to be sure. Eg. If you get the fourth line down in the bass clef, you can think down a third from the third line down, which is A. Go down a third and then you have an F.

[nyiregyhazi]

The "hidden secret" helps beginners effortlessly read space notes and count. Great work.

I presume you're being sarcastic, but I see pianist after pianist who simply doesn't either know the basic notes at first glance or have a rapid system for deriving notes that they are uncertain of. I posted this is the students corner for precisely that reason. To become an advanced reader, the first thing most people need to understand is how to memorise notes quickly and with certainty. For many people, the standard "learn all these lines and all these spaces" actively hinders them from getting there.

I was among the lucky ones who didn't have to think very hard to learn reading, but most students are held back by not knowing how to get the basics properly down. It's small wonder that they also struggle to sightread more advanced collections of notes.

[outin]

I presume you're being sarcastic, but I see pianist after pianist who simply doesn't either know the basic notes at first glance or have a rapid system for deriving notes that they are uncertain of. I posted this is the students corner for precisely that reason. To become an advanced reader, the first thing most people need to understand is how to memorise notes quickly and with certainty. For many people, the standard "learn all these lines and all these spaces" actively hinders them from getting there.

I was among the lucky ones who didn't have to think very hard to learn reading, but most students are held back by not knowing how to get the basics properly down. It's small wonder that they also struggle to sightread more advanced collections of notes.

I think it is clear that many piano students are really behind in reading compared to their other skills. And they are fooling their teachers all the time by acting like they are reading when really playing from memory. I have done it and so have many others that I have talked to. So you are addressing a real problem here.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think it is clear that many piano students are really behind in reading compared to their other skills. And they are fooling their teachers all the time by acting like they are reading when really playing from memory. I have done it and so have many others that I have talked to. So you are addressing a real problem here.

Yeah, agreed. Although what I speak of is very basic, sometimes even advanced players simply don't have that ability to look at a note and be consistently 100 percent certain right away. It's the ability to do this in milliseconds that allows good readers to expand out to reading dense textures with the same ease. I suspect that even some pretty good readers need to look more to the bare essentials in order to go further still.

Also- consider what talent it takes to fake your way by with poor reading skills. Those who don't memorise easily simply don't have any point of entry unless they read fluently. For most who don't get to grips with reading easily, they probably just don't get anywhere at all. Those who can memorise to get around poor reading are actually very lucky- even if they are still holding themselves back by not improving their reading too.

[werq34ac]

I didn't bother to read it, but just my thoughts on sightreading
My personal tips are
1. Read ahead! Helps A LOT
2. Know your basic patterns. Scales, octaves, 3rds, arpeggios, tremolos, broken octaves, recognize those patterns. It allows you to skip notes. Though you might end up with wrong notes in the process, you'll be right 99% of the time.
3. Know your chords. It's easier to see and play an A major chord than recognize that it's A C# E and then realize it's an A major chord.
4. Look at the shape. I personally think this is huge. When I sight read, I don't look at the notes. I look at the outline of the notes and the shapes the make. I look at the spaces between the notes. I see how much space is between the notes and my brain magically and unconsciously (and very quickly) converts that to notes.

Opinions on this?

[nyiregyhazi]

Please don't take this personally, but in my opinion the tips you give are essentially descriptive of what an evolved sight-reader can do- rather than advice that helps with the process of HOW they are going to be able to do that. Increasingly, I'm believing that the type of things you describe basically just need to be allowed to evolve organically. I think there's a limit to how far merely knowing what you are supposed to be able to do is going to help. It all hinges on whether the foundations of the reading are solid enough for these things to have the chance to develop.

Also, my post wasn't actually about sight reading skills, but the foundation reading skills upon which playing by sight hinges. I'd be a lot more interested in your opinions on the issues that the post was about than on the broad topic of sight reading.

1. Read ahead! Helps A LOT

True- but you need very good reading skills to be able to do so. Knowing that you are meant to look ahead doesn't help anyone who is not advanced enough to do so.

2. Know your basic patterns. Scales, octaves, 3rds, arpeggios, tremolos, broken octaves, recognize those patterns. It allows you to skip notes. Though you might end up with wrong notes in the process, you'll be right 99% of the time.
3. Know your chords. It's easier to see and play an A major chord than recognize that it's A C# E and then realize it's an A major chord.

On both of these, it's again about having good reading skills. You identify A major BECAUSE you have processed each of its constituent notes. Otherwise you cannot know its A major. Your brain may not process letters, but it certainly has to process each individual note and the key it corresponds to. When people think they read A major it's an illusion- that is permitted by the fact that they are so good at reading that they can piece together the chord without even realising that their brain first processed the individual notes that make it up. Again, it's all about the foundation. Without the foundation this never evolves. You can't tell someone to look for chords if they're too slow to decipher them. However, with a good foundation, this step just tends to evolve. I never made any great effort on this- but because I read chords quickly I went on to get to the point where I experience the same illusion (of cause and effect being reversed) myself. But it's impossible that my brain is not processing every individual note. Change one single note and there's a new harmony. I could not have learned this by being told to memorise chords. I acquired it because I read fluently.

4. Look at the shape. I personally think this is huge. When I sight read, I don't look at the notes. I look at the outline of the notes and the shapes the make. I look at the spaces between the notes. I see how much space is between the notes and my brain magically and unconsciously (and very quickly) converts that to notes.

This is a big part, but I think it's a big mistake to say you don't look at the notes. Chances are, you just don't realise it. Just answer me this- can you read alto/tenor/soprano clef with the same fluency as you read bass and treble clef? If not, what you describe above is an illusion. Distances are only one part of the picture- and rock solid absolute reading skills are needed for complete fluency. It was this realisation that led to me write the post that you couldn't be bothered to read. Most students who struggle haven't learned to perform the most basic note recognition quickly and effortlessly enough (or even with reliable accuracy in many cases). None of the things you describe can possibly come about without such a prior foundation.  They all depend entirely on it being in place. In my opinion, the best sight readers all have a super-evolved version of the basic note recognition skills, which is so rapid that they can take on huge amounts of information without even realising how much they have absorbed.

[werq34ac]

1. good point. But how about going slow enough that you are able to look ahead?
2. and 3.
That's what I meant about them. Build a good foundation so you don't have to actively look at each note.
4. I haven't bothered to learn other clefs... (a lot of things I haven't bothered with  ) So no I can't read them. Alto clef I can probably struggle through if I don't have anything else to worry about. This note familiarity you speak of is probably right about my treble and bass clef, but other clefs I can't recognize notes instantly.


Also it's worth noting I have a lot of trouble sightreading pieces that have runs that don't fall into regular patterns.

[nyiregyhazi]

1. good point. But how about going slow enough that you are able to look ahead?

True- but what I'm talking about is developing instantaneous ability to pick out notes. Going slower and planning ahead doesn't necessarily make for any long term improvement- unless the actual process of reading those notes is both quick and efficient. If someone doesn't typically look ahead, the underlying problem is likely that they just aren't good or fast enough at picking notes out.

That's what I meant about them. Build a good foundation so you don't have to actively look at each note.

Sure- there's a difference between actively thinking about every note and processing them all less consciously. However, the way you describe it implies an altogether different process goes on in chords. In reality, I don't believe that's the case. Those who read chords as if just one thing are just very good at reading individual notes and do it vastly quicker. There's a risk that trying to force yourself to read chords as one shape will just distract from the necessity of better foundations skills- for those who do not have them. You cannot read a chord as one thing until you can read the constituent parts at lightning speed. When the ability to pick out notes is rock solid, you tend to just end up reading chords as a single thing, without having to make any real effort to do so. That's why I think what you speak of is more a description of a polished product- rather than a means of acquiring it.

4. I haven't bothered to learn other clefs... (a lot of things I haven't bothered with  ) So no I can't read them. Alto clef I can probably struggle through if I don't have anything else to worry about. This note familiarity you speak of is probably right about my treble and bass clef, but other clefs I can't recognize notes instantly.

Yeah, this shows that it's much less about relativity than you realise. I can read alto clef based on interval (with middle C as my only absolute point of reference), but it's WAY harder than when I read treble or bass clef and I have to think extremely hard- compared to playing an equivalent in familiar clefs. When I realised this, it became clear that absolute reading skills are massively important and that relative comparisons are not good enough for fluency. They're just one part of the picture. It's not enough to compensate for anything less than the ability to identify any individual note in an isolated context.