Trouble with fingerings and dynamics.

[gleeok]

So, just in case you didn't see my post concerning dynamics, I was introduced to them personally a few days ago. So far, I managed to have a fair amount of control, but still having problems applying the right pressure and timing at some fast parts in some pieces.

This is one of them, which has been troubling me for the past 2 days:



These fingerings for the beams are not "natural" from me, I changed them today and I have been trying to play that way because it seems easier to give clarity to the notes while playing quickly, unlike the previous "natural" fingering which seemed much harder and made me hit other keys accidentally.

Yet, the clarity is not good enough, and right after hitting the first chord at ff, I usually play that part and end up stumbling or playing with not enough clarity (the notes seem to "gasp" and fade away too quickly). Its been so far the hardest part to fix. Do you have any tips? Progress made has been awfully slow for such a small sequence.

ps: The staff notation is in D major (F# and C#), its part of the freely available Canon in D (Oborin), from this same site.

Thank you ! : P

[outin]

Edit: Didn't notice that it was D major when I first read you post. I would not use that fingering, too much twisting the wrist. For example the first measure I would do: 1-3-5, 43213543

It's not easy to learn to play with dynamics, so you'll just practice with simple pieces and scales. I found it very difficult to play dynamics with a digital piano, with an acoustic it comes more naturally.

A beginner will not learn to play ff or pp just like that, it takes time to develope that control and also the control to make subtle changes in dynamics. And if you have played with a non-weighted keyboard it also takes time to learn to use your fingers properly to play.

If you try to play ff by just hitting the key as hard as possible, the sound will indeed just die away fast, at least with an acoustic. To be able to play dynamics requires the development of good touch which seems to come more naturally to some than others. A teacher would be great help of course.

I suggest you start by just trying to differentiate between three levels, p/pp, mp/mf and f/ff.

Something my teacher told me right in the beginning:
It's not about playing quiet or playing loud. It is about playing softer/louder. So it is all relative and can/should be adjusted according to one's skills. Listen to the effect you are making more than the actual sound level.

So no quick fix I'm afraid...

[outin]

These fingerings for the beams are not "natural" from me, I changed them today and I have been trying to play that way because it seems easier to give clarity to the notes while playing quickly, unlike the previous "natural" fingering which seemed much harder and made me hit other keys accidentally.

One more thing. When learning baroque stuff, don't try to play fast until you have developed clarity, precision and finger strength by proper practice. I did that in the beginning and all I got was a lot of frustration. You just cannot get away with it. These pieces may look simple, but require a lot of practice to play well. If you have just been introduced to key weight, you must take your time. Play slowly and practice hands separately, make sure every note is perfect and your hand is always in a good position on the keyboard, no twisting of wrist. Luckily with baroque you don't need to worry that much about dynamics.

[hmpiano]

The fingering is good.  I think your hand may not be well enough developed.

[nyiregyhazi]

The fingering is good.  I think your hand may not be well enough developed.

Good??? Are you serious? There is no contextual benefit whatsoever for having to reach in with the thumb on a black key. As for having to turn 5 under 4 (with a finger already available and nothing to follow but a rest) it's baffling to the point where it can only be presumed as a misprint.

[hmpiano]

Hey, keep your hair on!  Plenty agree with me that thumb-on-black-note is fine.  Here's the fourth hit if you google: https://www.marthabeth.com/pedagogy_QA.html#147.  As for crossing 5 under 4 - Chopin and Bach do it all the time though no real need here as there's a rest but still good practice and worth considering on the learning front.

So yes, I am serious.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hey, keep your hair on!  Plenty agree with me that thumb-on-black-note is fine.

Myself included. The problem is that in this particular instance it serves no conceivable purpose and there is a greatly simpler alternative. What possible reason is there to enter into an awkward position here?  

As for crossing 5 under 4 - Chopin and Bach do it all the time though no real need here as there's a rest but still good practice and worth considering on the learning front.

So yes, I am serious.

You're probably just trolling again (having been banned on various occasions for doing so and set up yet another sock puppet account). If not, you need to appreciate the nature of context. The only time Chopin crosses weaker fingers over each other is to continue the flow of music, when there are many more notes to follow, or when notes are a semitone apart and can be played legato, despite the crossing. He doesn't ever do so as an end in itself. Crossing 5 under 4 between the last two notes of a phrase (when there's a perfectly good finger at the ready) would be plain idiocy. If you know of a single example where Chopin asked for that fingering in such a context, please cite it.

The trick is used when it allows a number of following notes to be played more easily. To hop from one note to the final note of a phrase would be appalling unmusical and plain amateurish. The gap in the flow would be totally unacceptable and so would the inherent lump on the last note of the phrase. The final note of group is possibly the single most important to have control over. It stands out the most when control slips. The fingering is clearly a misprint- and it's plain irresponsible to tell an inexperienced player that such a stupid fingering is "good" (just because of improperly understood knowledge about how Chopin used fingering).

[gleeok]

Edit: Didn't notice that it was D major when I first read you post. I would not use that fingering, too much twisting the wrist. For example the first measure I would do: 1-3-5, 43213543

It's not easy to learn to play with dynamics, so you'll just practice with simple pieces and scales. I found it very difficult to play dynamics with a digital piano, with an acoustic it comes more naturally.

A beginner will not learn to play ff or pp just like that, it takes time to develope that control and also the control to make subtle changes in dynamics. And if you have played with a non-weighted keyboard it also takes time to learn to use your fingers properly to play.

If you try to play ff by just hitting the key as hard as possible, the sound will indeed just die away fast, at least with an acoustic. To be able to play dynamics requires the development of good touch which seems to come more naturally to some than others. A teacher would be great help of course.

I suggest you start by just trying to differentiate between three levels, p/pp, mp/mf and f/ff.

Something my teacher told me right in the beginning:
It's not about playing quiet or playing loud. It is about playing softer/louder. So it is all relative and can/should be adjusted according to one's skills. Listen to the effect you are making more than the actual sound level.

So no quick fix I'm afraid...

I understand now and I will try the fingering you suggested. To be precise about it, I'm not really worried about what the sheet says, right now (if I should do ff, pp), because these are relative anyways, right? Like, If I'm playing quietly with the master volume at max it will sound like ff if the master volume is low. I'm just trying to keep the dynamics controlled and softer/louder when needed, while keeping clarity. My problem was not exactly with the dynamics, but keeping the clarity while making it sound louder than before, because this transition happens exactly in that troublesome part.

If I'm think its sounding good enough for a beginner, I will post an mp3 to get some feedback (can I do this on this forum?), I hope I don't get shot at if its too awful. xD

Thanks a lot for your comments everyone. I like seeing your discussions, its interesting. And...I guess the thumb in the black key was not a good idea after all. I was just running out of ideas with the fingerings <-<

[hmpiano]

 And...I guess the thumb in the black key was not a good idea after all.

I disagree.  There's a very good argument for sticking to the same fingering for both bars.  It's called a sequence and when ever possible that's how they should be treated.  Don't let someone with an apparent bee in his bonnet put you off!

[outin]

If I'm think its sounding good enough for a beginner, I will post an mp3 to get some feedback (can I do this on this forum?), I hope I don't get shot at if its too awful. xD

Yes you can and no shooting here, promise 

[nyiregyhazi]

I disagree.  There's a very good argument for sticking to the same fingering for both bars.  It's called a sequence and when ever possible that's how they should be treated.  Don't let someone with an apparent bee in his bonnet put you off!

So, why were you arguing in favour of that ludicrous 4-5 in the first bar- which is not present in the 2nd bar? If you want to take a preachy tone about an issue, it's best not to have contradicted your very own principle earlier in a thread- by claiming that a fingering that is both inconsistent and awkward is supposedly fine. You are the only person who has actually argued in favour of an inconsistent fingering.

I'd finger both bars with the same fingering that outin suggested earlier in the thread. It works well for both. There's no need to take the thumb on the black key in the name of consistency, as there's a far more comfortable fingering which can be applied to both bars- without compromise in either. It's also good in that it frees the hand up by not getting locked into one position. If you're interested in advanced fingering, try looking at Schnabel's fingering for the semiquavers on the first page of the Waldstein. Even though the notes fit a single 5 finger position, he passes over the thumb- in order to keep the arm flowing back and forth. It's beneficial to do the same here. Not only does it mean avoiding the thumb on the black key, but it keeps the arm flowing with the shape of the phrase (aiding musical shaping) and stops it getting locked into a rigid position.

If you're interested in advanced fingering principles, you'd do well to look a lot further into Schnabel's. There's more to advanced fingering that casually passing weak fingers back and forth over each other just because Chopin sometimes did it (in very specific circumstances), or deciding that simply because the thumb sometimes works fine on black keys you might as well do so whenever, without any specific reason to justify it. There's a very fine line between advanced fingering and amateurish fingering- unless you understand the actual reasoning behind why seemingly unusual fingerings might sometimes be applied. They are not to be thrown around for the hell of it.

[hmpiano]

Oh dear, it's all getting a bit hot under the collar.  Simply put, and my last word, my solution is the Baroque one, yours the Classical.  You pays your money and takes your choice. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh dear, it's all getting a bit hot under the collar.  Simply put, and my last word, my solution is the Baroque one, yours the Classical.  You pays your money and takes your choice.  

Your solution is not Baroque and neither is mine Classical. There's no Baroque "rule" that says you should strive to place the thumb on a black key (regardless of whether there is a perfectly simple alternative), so you can drop any self-congratulatory and pseudo-intellectual crap about it being a characteristic fingering style of the era. It's not "Baroque" fingering, but an inept fingering (that causes needless difficulty, due to you misunderstanding a small amount of information about advanced fingering techniques and failing to appreciate the importance of CONTEXT).

Putting the thumb on a black key is not a clever trick to throw about whenever possible. It's something that should only ever done to be serve a greater purpose. In this case, there's not a single benefit that cannot be obtained by simpler means.

[hmpiano]

In that case I suggest we agree to disagree.

[nyiregyhazi]

In that case I suggest we agree to disagree.

I'll agree that you have not given a shred of evidence to support the ridiculous idea that your fingering is more authentically "baroque" and that you are a tedious troll- who makes cheap claims, without even attempting to substantiate them with credible arguments.

[hmpiano]

you are a tedious troll- who makes cheap claims, ithout even attempting to substantiate them with credible arguments

So those who disagree with you are trolls?  Oh well, a rose by any other name....I suppose.  On the thumb on black note issue - as I indicated there are hundreds of websites that agree with me.  So not worth the time arguing about.  

[nyiregyhazi]

So those who disagree with you are trolls?  Oh well, a rose by any other name....I suppose.  On the thumb on black note issue - as I indicated there are hundreds of websites that agree with me.  So not worth the time arguing about.  

No- just any posters who have been repeatedly banned from this website for trolling. If saying that it can be okay to use the thumb on black keys were agreeing with you, then it would follow that I "agree" with you too. It's just another instance of you using cheap spin- to falsely attribute your very specific stance as being directly supported by something far more general. Perhaps these websites also "agree" that you should use C major fingering for the right hand of F major? What you seem unable to understand is that just because there is sometimes good cause to use the thumb on a black key does not mean that you should use the thumb on the black key as the first port of call. Every case is to be judged on its own merits.