Beethoven Sonatas

[ajspiano]

Hello Hello,

So when I was a bit younger an older music teacher in my town passed on and inadvertently left her sheet music collection to me. Most of it I discarded, however I kept a few larger books that seemed like real gems (though at the time I really didnt know, I was 15).

The Beethoven Sonatas -
I never really looked at them because the book is so old and it was easier to use newer printed versions. Last night I took a proper look.

The edition I have is as follows -

Publisher - Augener
Beethoven - Piano Sonatas, edited by Hans von Bülow, revised by Buonamici - 1903

Now, in the preface (written by Buonamici) it states that there is a direct teaching lineage to beethoven, as follows.

Buonamici, Bülow, Liszt, Cznery, Beethoven.

I note that I can't find this edition on IMSLP, and it appears to be (from what I've looked at) heavily edited. AND, its certainly different from anything else I just looked at briefly on IMSLP. As an example I just fooled around with the pastorale sonata last night, and just the sheer number of musically relevant fingering marks on the first page I found to be pretty useful.

So is it public domain given its age? can I legally share it?
What does anyone know about Buonamici/Bülow?
Does anyone know if it is available elsewhere online - to save me doing scans, because its a massive time consuming job..?
Is anyone even interested in seeing it?

Cheers,
AJ

[m1469]

I'd enjoy seeing it.

[j_menz]

The von Bulow one is currently available from Schirmer, though not as amended by Buonamici.

I've read that the von Bulow one is a bit flaky, but am not sure how reliable that is.

Buonamici is a useful editor for fingerings and so forth, but he is inclined to be somewhat inventive when it comes to the actual notes.

So, what you have is almost certainly not Urtext, but would be a very useful supplement to that.

[ajspiano]

The von Bulow one is currently available from Schirmer, though not as amended by Buonamici.

Do you suppose that means it is likely public domain?

I've read that the von Bulow one is a bit flaky, but am not sure how reliable that is.

Buonamici is a useful editor for fingerings and so forth, but he is inclined to be somewhat inventive when it comes to the actual notes.

The preface reads roughly as..

Originally when asked to edit the sonata's I declined as I felt that I was not yet experienced enough for such a task. It dawned on me though, that having studied all 32 sonata's under the direction of Bulow it would be almost unreasonable of me not to share that knowledge..

..As such I have edited these sonatas exactly as I believe my master teacher would have, and, where any direction significantly differs from the composers it has been noted as "according to bulow"

Perhaps a little odd if there is already a bulow version - too bad I can't get a look inside to see how different it is..

EDIT:
That said, I've managed to find a bulow version of the pathetique on IMSLP. - will have to dig into that for comparison

[j_menz]

Do you suppose that means it is likely public domain?

Buonamici died in 1914, so it is.

Perhaps a little odd if there is already a bulow version - too bad I can't get a look inside to see how different it is..

They may in fact be the same, with Buonamici's contribution unattributed.

As an aside, von Bulow was the first to perform a complete cycle of the Sonatas.

[ajspiano]

Bulow died in 1894.. but there's a copyright version of his..

Contributors Hans Von Bulow, Ludwig Van Beethoven
Edition    revised
Publisher    Hal Leonard Corporation, 1986

..

Or are we saying if I had bulow, printed in ~1900 by a different publisher then it'd be ok? Its a bit sketchy - atleast given my limited understanding of the technicalities.

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a reprint or copyright renewal for the Buonamici version.

...

There are some interesting comparisons to make, IMSLP has images of beethoven's manuscript (messy ) and first published versions. My copy is definately heavily edited comparitively to those..  Maybe I'll post a photo at some point in the near future.

[j_menz]

Bulow died in 1894.. but there's a copyright version of his..

Contributors Hans Von Bulow, Ludwig Van Beethoven
Edition    revised
Publisher    Hal Leonard Corporation, 1986

..

Or are we saying if I had bulow, printed in ~1900 by a different publisher then it'd be ok? Its a bit sketchy - atleast given my limited understanding of the technicalities.

Technically, it's only the editorial additions that are copyrighted. In the Buonamici version, if he was the final editor, copyright is 70 years from his death.

[ajspiano]

Doing a bit of casual research - seems like its not that bulow's version is "flaky" so much as there is a bit of snobbery going about because its so heavily edited. It strikes me as being petty and fairly stupid.

For one, I'm not entirely sure why you'd release a version of the sonatas (or anything for the matter) at all if you were not going to contribute something interpretatively. - otherwise, why not just reprint an urtext and call it that. Additionally, reading into his life.. he seems like he'd have an opinion worth considering.

I've been looking at two versions from IMSLP, a Bulow/Lebert "instructive" edition printed in 1875, and a "first version" urtext, printed in 1799.

I've been looking at the 2nd movement of the pathetique. The more recent edition is HEAVILY edited. There is added phrasing (in the inner voices mostly), dynamics (a lot of dynamics), articulations..  Thing is though, the urtext contains just phrasing and some articulations, as well as very sparse use of dynamic markings.

Interestingly, (or perhaps obviously) most of what bulow adds is probably what I'd be adding myself to the interpretation, or discussing directly with students. His edition is very detailed and draws you're attention to many aspects of the work that would be overlooked by most. Seems fairly invaluable as a supplement.

Very intrigued to observe Buonamici's thoughts now.

No doubt my opinion/thoughts would frustrate the purists..

[j_menz]

If the Pathetique you are looking at is from 1799, it must be the first published edition.

I think some people agree with Bulow's decisions and some don't. That may colour their view of his editorial style.

I personally don't mind them and just ignore what doesn't seem right.

And don't knock frustrating the purists; there's much fun to be had there. 

[ajspiano]

If the Pathetique you are looking at is from 1799, it must be the first published edition.

I believe so -

This one was also good to look at and have a laugh about music teachers getting upset about my less than neat notation.

Op. 28 - Beethovens original manuscript. https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/c6/IMSLP51039-PMLP01460-Op.28_Manuscript.pdf

[j_menz]

This one was also good to look at and have a laugh about music teachers getting upset about my less than neat notation.

Haha, I wish I'd had access to that when I was a kid.

[chopin2015]

Wow! Sounds awesome! I am sure some information in there is very valuable. I find popular sonatas are passed down through generations well, but some things always get lost in translation! It would be nice to get closer to the source as much as possible! Lucky you!